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Merged Oh no. Now I'm no longer an aries / Astrology shift

interesting. so what do "tropical" astrologists claim as influence if not stars?

The seasons! Well, they still claim influence by the stars. Just more indirectly by the impact it has on the seasons. Keep in mind that "stars" in this context means everything from the Sun, Moon, Planets as well as the Constellations.

Of course, this only applies to astrologists that know they need apologetics for their beliefs to match the actual position of the constellations. I personally have run into few that realize that the zodiacs are not equal in length and continue to drift enough that older mappings no longer apply. These are mostly amateurs with vague new age belief systems. I have never partaken of professional astrology so have no idea how common astrological apologetics is.
 
"There is no truth in this," Jawer said. "Western Astrologers use the Tropical Zodiac, which is based on the seasons, not the signs. Anyone who seriously researches the subject would know that."
http://www.dailyhoroscope.com/horos...ts-say-astrology-horoscope-zodiac-signs-wrong

Ahahahahahaha. Haha. Ha.
"Seriously research" and Zodiac. Thanks for that, I needed a laugh this morning.

Phil has a post up about the subject:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2011/01/13/astrological-sign-of-the-times/
 
This is all really bad news for me because we Ophiuchuses are really frightened of change.
 
(I wrote this last night, and then fell asleep (computer open on my lap) before posting. It's a little less necessary now, given the intervening posts, but I'll post it anyway)

There are (at least) two major systems of astrology, and each has its own zodiac. They both have the same 12 signs we're all accustomed to, in the same order, but they start and end on different dates. What's often called Western astrology, which is widely used throughout the West (go figure) fixes the signs to the seasons. The vernal equinox is, always has been, and always will be zero degrees Aries. The rest of the signs go on from there. Western astrology uses what's called the Tropical Zodiac, which ignores the precession of the equinox. Western astrologers are aware that the actual constellation of Aries isn't behind the sun in late March and early April. They just don't care, because that's not the way that system works. Indian astrology, also called Jyotisa or sometimes Vedic astrology, uses the Sidereal Zodiac, which accounts for the precession of the equinoxes. Indian astrology actually looks to see what constellation is behind the sun in determining what sign the sun is in.

Nobody's sign has changed, unless that person has switched from Western to Indian astrology, or vice versa.

I've raised this with a lot of astrological buffs..invariably they refuse to accept it and continue to call themselves whatever they were before they were told about the precession of equinoxes etc...for some reason they get attached to their sign

It's not necessarily that they're attached to their sign--a proper application of Western astrology ignores the precession of the equinoxes. I mean, maybe some of them are just attached to their sign, but that's not necessarily it.

This was old news twenty years ago when I mentioned it to an astrologically-minded friend of mine. Apparently astrologers make a distinction between a "birth sign" and a "sun sign", the latter being your sign according to where the sun actually was when you were born, and the former being where it would have been had you been born in 1 AD.

Again, Western astrologers don't care where the sun actually was (i.e., what constellation it was actually in front of) when you were born. Western astrologers use the phrase "sun sign" because "birth sign" is basically a term for laypersons. There are ten astrological planets: the sun, the moon, Pluto, and the seven planets other than Earth. Each of these planets is in some certain sign at any given moment. Astrologers care about all 10 planets (and then some) when they run your chart, so any sign that any of the planets was in when you were born is your "birth sign" with respect to that planet. Horoscopes only take into account the sun--your "sign" (or "birth sign") is actually your sun sign. Snooty astrologers sometimes use the pejorative term "sun sign astrology" for horoscopes, pointing out what they see as the foolishness of lumping all humanity into 12 broad categories, ignoring all the other stuff "real astrology" takes into account.

Maybe it is ironic--astrologers are probably more skeptical of horoscopes than the general population, albeit for the wrong reasons!
 
The seasons! Well, they still claim influence by the stars. Just more indirectly by the impact it has on the seasons. Keep in mind that "stars" in this context means everything from the Sun, Moon, Planets as well as the Constellations.

Some astrologers might claim influence by the planets, but it's not necessary to astrology. Consider, if I have a chart saying sunrise tomorrow is at 6:45, and I have a clock, and if, tomorrow morning when the clock reads 6:45, the sun rises, did my clock and chart cause the sun to rise? So if I have an astrological chart which can be interpreted as saying I have such-and-such a trait based on a certain conjunction of planets, and then I end up having such-and-such trait, did the planets cause me to have it? Did the chart cause me to have it? Or do the positions of the planets, along with the ability to interpret them, simply allow the prediction that I will have such-and-such trait, in the same way a clock allows prediction of sunrise?

(The answer, of course, is neither, since it's all BS. But I'm just saying if it's not BS, it doesn't have to be because it's the planets influencing us.)
 
Maybe it is ironic--astrologers are probably more skeptical of horoscopes than the general population, albeit for the wrong reasons!
Exactly what is so humorous about this situation! It is similar to how fundementalists of religions tend to be more skeptical of the fudnementals of other religions than the average practitioner... but for entirely the wrong reasons.
 
I'm apparently a Cancer now. But screw that, Leo fits much better with my name (Leonard).
 
Aww man, I don't feel like a Pisces. I've always been an Aries sort of person, blundering into things and then trying to keep everything from exploding from my own foolishness!

Hmm, can I get moved into Scorpio? Oh oh, I wanna be a Leo! Then I can feel overconfident in my leadership potential!
 
You can have my Capricorn when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers.

(As opposed to my warm, dead fingers, I guess. (I always wonder if some guy say, "Nope, not cold yet, we have to leave this gun here. Note the location in GPS please."))
 
(I wrote this last night, and then fell asleep (computer open on my lap) before posting. It's a little less necessary now, given the intervening posts, but I'll post it anyway)

There are (at least) two major systems of astrology, and each has its own zodiac. They both have the same 12 signs we're all accustomed to, in the same order, but they start and end on different dates. What's often called Western astrology, which is widely used throughout the West (go figure) fixes the signs to the seasons. The vernal equinox is, always has been, and always will be zero degrees Aries. The rest of the signs go on from there. Western astrology uses what's called the Tropical Zodiac, which ignores the precession of the equinox. Western astrologers are aware that the actual constellation of Aries isn't behind the sun in late March and early April. They just don't care, because that's not the way that system works. Indian astrology, also called Jyotisa or sometimes Vedic astrology, uses the Sidereal Zodiac, which accounts for the precession of the equinoxes. Indian astrology actually looks to see what constellation is behind the sun in determining what sign the sun is in.

Nobody's sign has changed, unless that person has switched from Western to Indian astrology, or vice versa.



It's not necessarily that they're attached to their sign--a proper application of Western astrology ignores the precession of the equinoxes. I mean, maybe some of them are just attached to their sign, but that's not necessarily it.



Again, Western astrologers don't care where the sun actually was (i.e., what constellation it was actually in front of) when you were born. Western astrologers use the phrase "sun sign" because "birth sign" is basically a term for laypersons. There are ten astrological planets: the sun, the moon, Pluto, and the seven planets other than Earth. Each of these planets is in some certain sign at any given moment. Astrologers care about all 10 planets (and then some) when they run your chart, so any sign that any of the planets was in when you were born is your "birth sign" with respect to that planet. Horoscopes only take into account the sun--your "sign" (or "birth sign") is actually your sun sign. Snooty astrologers sometimes use the pejorative term "sun sign astrology" for horoscopes, pointing out what they see as the foolishness of lumping all humanity into 12 broad categories, ignoring all the other stuff "real astrology" takes into account.

Maybe it is ironic--astrologers are probably more skeptical of horoscopes than the general population, albeit for the wrong reasons!

Informative post and I agree with most of it, except that the "signs" did change. The tropical system is just a cop-out defined by the sidereal system as it was 1000 years ago. It's not that the astrological signs shifted suddenly, but rather that the general population just found out that their signs do not correspond to actual constellations.
 
interesting. so what do "tropical" astrologists claim as influence if not stars?
"Astrology is based on the four seasons, not on constellations -- and the seasons don’t change." See http://www.dailyhoroscope.com/horoscope-headlines/ophiuchus-the-13th-zodiac-sign

The American Ephemeris and Nautical Almanac, which was published between 1855-1980, used to list the sun as entering the constellation of Aries at the time of the vernal equinox, even though that has not been true since before the time of Christ. Why? Because, according to the zodiac, the sun still enters that constellation at that time. So, that publication seemed to make a concession to astrology in that regard. In any event, the "breaking news" that the constellations no longer correspond to the signs of the zodiac is about as newsworthy as would be a "discovery" that the earth is round, and not flat.
 

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