Official - Michael Jackson was scum

[Shadowdweller]

Jackson wasn't destroyed by the false allegations. He overcame them and died the most beloved pop icon in American history, if not world history.

His family members claim the complete polar opposite. They claim he was emotionally devestated by them. They blame fallout from the allegations and trials for the drug use that eventually lead to MJ's death.

 

[Dismember]

But they didn't mention anything about "Safechuck's allegations being sourced from Gutierrez's book"? Why would they not mention that if it was something so obvious yet undermined all of their allegations?

That’s in the first link.

I didn’t see the lawyers specifically mention the book, but they repeatedly call the allegations false and in the letter to HBO they offer to send depositions and statements upon request.

If you read the first link, scroll down toward the middle of the page. I don’t think it’s very far down but I can’t recall exactly what section it’s in and can’t check at the moment. There’s a significant amount of detail and context on that page and throughout different sections of the website.
Edit: On the A Critical Analysis of Leaving Neverland link (“source”, linked in previous post), click the “Claim 2” link. The Gutierrez info is in that section.

 

[Dismember]

But they didn't mention anything about "Safechuck's allegations being sourced from Gutierrez's book"? Why would they not mention that if it was something so obvious yet undermined all of their allegations?

I’m sorry, I’m distracted at the moment and I should have given a more relevant answer to the highlighted part.

The lawyers wouldn’t have mentioned the book because the allegations made in their original statements and depositions didn’t include those things.

They (Robson and Safechuck) made new allegations (or added more explicit details) in the show that weren’t in the original claims. Neither the Estate nor anyone in the family were given a chance for an advance screening so they couldn’t comment on those new additions.

Gutierrez is mentioned in A Critical Analysis of Leaving Neverland, which was written after LN aired publicly on HBO and someone (I don’t know who’s behind the page) was able to address the claims made specifically in the show.

 

[Elagabalus]

I’m sorry, I’m distracted at the moment and I should have given a more relevant answer to the highlighted part.

The lawyers wouldn’t have mentioned the book because the allegations made in their original statements and depositions didn’t include those things.

They (Robson and Safechuck) made new allegations (or added more explicit details) in the show that weren’t in the original claims. Neither the Estate nor anyone in the family were given a chance for an advance screening so they couldn’t comment on those new additions.

Gutierrez is mentioned in A Critical Analysis of Leaving Neverland, which was written after LN aired publicly on HBO and someone (I don’t know who’s behind the page) was able to address the claims made specifically in the show.

Gutierrez is problematic. The rest is pretty thin gruel.

How about this little chestnut?

https://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/1994/01/orth199401

from 1994 before Gutierrez's book? Seems like the same seduction technique to me.

btw. Safechuck and Robson are mentioned. I think this is Wade Robson's dad:

...One anguished father who had spent considerable time at Neverland called me in despair over the fact that he had ever allowed Jackson to share a bed with his son. He has no proof that anything untoward occurred, but he claims that he himself was molested by an uncle and kept the secret from his parents for 30 years. That knowledge tortures him, because he and his wife are divorced, and he lives so far away that he is rarely able to see his son...

 

[Arcade22]

That’s in the first link.

I didn’t see the lawyers specifically mention the book, but they repeatedly call the allegations false and in the letter to HBO they offer to send depositions and statements upon request.

So the lawyers and spokespersons working on behalf of MJ's estate don't bother to substantiate their claim that the allegations are false by demonstrating that they are based on a book of fiction? It just seems incredibly stupid that they don't make a huge deal about this if it's so damaging to the credibility of his victims as you people seem to suggest.

It doesn't add up.

 

[qayak]

So the lawyers and spokespersons working on behalf of MJ's estate don't bother to substantiate their claim that the allegations are false by demonstrating that they are based on a book of fiction? It just seems incredibly stupid that they don't make a huge deal about this if it's so damaging to the credibility of his victims as you people seem to suggest.

It doesn't add up.

It's like the movie Argo. it's a load of ******** but no one wants to know the truth, they want the "Rah, Rah, U.S.A." myth.

 

[Dismember]

So the lawyers and spokespersons working on behalf of MJ's estate don't bother to substantiate their claim that the allegations are false by demonstrating that they are based on a book of fiction? It just seems incredibly stupid that they don't make a huge deal about this if it's so damaging to the credibility of his victims as you people seem to suggest.

It doesn't add up.

The book undermines the new claims in the show, but no one from the family or the Estate was given a chance to see it prior to release. They couldn’t have addressed new claims in a show they hadn’t yet seen. The letters were sent prior to the release of the show, and the Estate tried to set up a meeting to go over the problems with Robson’s and Safechuck’s original claims, but it doesn’t look like they heard back from them.

Their original statements and depositions had enough problems on their own. The lawsuits were dismissed with prejudice. The problems with their original complaints are listed here. A Critical Analysis of Leaving Neverland

It’s a lengthy read but if you wish to understand why some people think these guys aren’t on the up and up (including me — I don’t trust that they’re credible) this covers most of those details.

 

[Arcade22]

The book undermines the new claims in the show, but no one from the family or the Estate was given a chance to see it prior to release. They couldn’t have addressed new claims in a show they hadn’t yet seen.

But they have presumably seen it now, right? I'd take it for granted that they would've officially made that case if there was any veracity to it, unless of course there's just an coincidental and superficial similarity.

This habit of focusing on often trivial and petty details while refusing to offer any innocent explanation at all for MJ's apparent child grooming behavior just comes off as desperately clutching at straws. Pedophile's that are grooming children in order to sexually abuse them act like Michael Jackson did and there's no way to just hand-wave it away.

 

[philkensebben]

This whole Jackson thing - I just cant get past the fact that he thought there was nothing wrong with sleeping in a bed with young boys. A grown man. In bed with prepubescent boys.

 

[Dismember]

But they have presumably seen it now, right? I'd take it for granted that they would've officially made that case if there was any veracity to it, unless of course there's just an coincidental and superficial similarity.

The show has only been out for a couple weeks now, so it hasn’t been that long. My guess is that they’ll put out some kind of rebuttal but they’re taking their time rather than doing some rushed, reactionary piece. I guess we’ll have to wait until that happens to see what they have to say and if they make a strong case.

 

[DragonLady]

This whole Jackson thing - I just cant get past the fact that he thought there was nothing wrong with sleeping in a bed with young boys. A grown man. In bed with prepubescent boys.

I agree for most of us that is too weird for words. But I've personally known a few people who would not see the problem with it.

At one time, it was perfectly normal for every member of a huge, extended family to sleep together in one bed.

It's still not unusual to see two or three or more families living together in tiny one - or two room apartments, and while I will never be the one to ask, the imagination boggles a bit when trying to imagine what the sleeping arrangements must be.

I know -Jackson wasn't raised under those circumstances. But somewhere along the line (a book? a story told by a grandparent or other elder? a television show?) he began to believe it was a perfectly sane thing to do -sane enough he was willing to tell a reporter about it, knowing it would be broadcast 'round the world.

I'm not defending the practice; but I'm all too aware it still happens in a great many families around the world, and do not want anyone to be accused of child abuse for engaging in a perfectly legal behavior.

 

[philkensebben]

I agree for most of us that is too weird for words. But I've personally known a few people who would not see the problem with it.

At one time, it was perfectly normal for every member of a huge, extended family to sleep together in one bed.

It's still not unusual to see two or three or more families living together in tiny one - or two room apartments, and while I will never be the one to ask, the imagination boggles a bit when trying to imagine what the sleeping arrangements must be.

I know -Jackson wasn't raised under those circumstances. But somewhere along the line (a book? a story told by a grandparent or other elder? a television show?) he began to believe it was a perfectly sane thing to do -sane enough he was willing to tell a reporter about it, knowing it would be broadcast 'round the world.

I'm not defending the practice; but I'm all too aware it still happens in a great many families around the world, and do not want anyone to be accused of child abuse for engaging in a perfectly legal behavior.

Families co sleeping is completely different from men sleeping with random boys.

 

[DragonLady]

I'm going to add to my post a bit, because I think this one aspect of Jackson's character is what immediately prejudices everyone against him, so after that all the evidence is jaundiced a bit.

I've known several children who did not hesitate to climb into bed with any adult handy if they became anxious or weren't used to sleeping alone. As a lot of parents co-sleep with their children, when those children are at someone else's home, they still expect to sleep with an adult.

That said, IIRC, the only time the Arvizo child(ren) was allowed to sleep in Jackson's bedroom, another man was there, too. I don't believe there were any accusations of abuse occurring that night.

 

[Dismember]

That said, IIRC, the only time the Arvizo child(ren) was allowed to sleep in Jackson's bedroom, another man was there, too. I don't believe there were any accusations of abuse occurring that night.

There were six people in the room on the night in question: Jackson, his personal assistant, Gavin and his brother, and Jackson’s own two kids.

https://themichaeljacksonallegation...-sharing-his-bedroom-with-unrelated-children/

Apparently this was a common occurrence. Jackson grew up with 9 or 10 siblings sharing one room, and having been surrounded by people his whole life, he liked having people, sometimes entire families, staying in his “bedroom” which was actually a two story suite.

If I recall correctly it was Bashir’s documentary (for which, I’m pretty sure, Gutierrez was a consultant) that put this into public consciousness, that “Jackson shares a bed with small boys”. And Jackson’s own commentary didn’t do him any favors. Macauley Culkin once said in some podcast or video that Jackson “wasn’t very good at explaining himself”. That seems to be a huge understatement.

But Bashir knew there were six people in the room that night, and that information, and anything else that would offer context, was omitted from the finished film.

It’s all the details like this, that DO show things in a different light, that makes me skeptical of the claims. Jackson was really, really messed up. If they have such a strong case against him, why would they have to be so dishonest? Same with the faxes and some of the “grooming” claims which turned out to be half-truths. To me, the half truths came off as big red flags that the claims against him aren’t as solid as I originally thought. And reading detailed timelines and descriptions of both the Chandler accusation (1993) and the Arvizo accusation (2005) further confirmed that.

 

[xjx388]

No.

There is no way in which it is perfectly OK for a grown man who is not related to a 10-12 year old kid to have a sleep over and sleep in the same bed.

Don’t try to analogize it to parental/familial co-sleeping or the clinginess of younger kids around people the parents know and trust.

About the only way you can try and explain MJ’s behavior is that he put himself in the role of a 12 year old kid. Maybe in his mind he was just having a sleepover with a friend, like kids do. But that’s not to say a it’s ok for a delusional 50 year old to have kids over for a sleepover. It’s fundamentally wrong, even if only because it opens up that person to such allegations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Shadowdweller]

This whole Jackson thing - I just cant get past the fact that he thought there was nothing wrong with sleeping in a bed with young boys. A grown man. In bed with prepubescent boys.

I've known several children who did not hesitate to climb into bed with any adult handy if they became anxious or weren't used to sleeping alone. As a lot of parents co-sleep with their children, when those children are at someone else's home, they still expect to sleep with an adult.

That said, IIRC, the only time the Arvizo child(ren) was allowed to sleep in Jackson's bedroom, another man was there, too. I don't believe there were any accusations of abuse occurring that night.

Which of these "sleeping behaviors" and claims have actually been substantiated? And in what context?

Because, for example, I watched a Macaulay Culkin clip the other day where he talks about playing video games with Jackson and other kids late into the night, and sometimes they would fall asleep in the process. This is of hugely different import, for example, than say...trying to deliberately encourage a pre-teen to join him in bed. I mean, there are clips and quotes like this where Jackson talks about giving UP his bed to a kid who had fallen asleep there...

 

[DragonLady]

Apparently this was a common occurrence. Jackson grew up with 9 or 10 siblings sharing one room, and having been surrounded by people his whole life

That jives with a lot of my experiences in foster care. A lot of kids -even teenagers- have NEVER been alone for a single night; not even in their own beds. I remember a girl once -maybe 16? exclaiming kinda loudly during a meal "you mean every person here sleeps ALONE???"

It seems completely alien to me, but obviously that goes both ways.

 

[DragonLady]

Because, for example, I watched a Macaulay Culkin clip where he talks about playing video games with Jackson and other kids late into the night, and sometimes they would fall asleep in the process. This is of hugely different import, for example, than say...trying to deliberately encourage a pre-teen to join him in bed. I mean, there are clips and quotes like this where Jackson talks about giving UP his bed to a kid who had fallen asleep there...

MOST of the claims regarding Jackson are of this latter variety. People on the lower floor of his room playing video games, talking and laughing together, then falling asleep. In some cases, he gave up his bed to kids, while he slept on the floor.

I don't think he ever -not once- actually claimed that he actually slept in a bed with a child. Only that he didn't think it would be a terrible thing to do.


ETA: let's not forget the one boy who claimed he was in Jackson's bed (on the upper story) didn't know there was an alarm that would chime when someone climbed the stairs.

 

[Shadowdweller]

I don't think he ever -not once- actually claimed that he actually slept in a bed with a child. Only that he didn't think it would be a terrible thing to do.

Well..there is THIS part of the Martin Bashir interview where Jackson claims that he HAS slept in a bed with children; naming Culkin and his sister. Though it seems like more of a group situation. And Culkin to this day asserts Jackson's innocence.

 

[DragonLady]

Well..there is THIS part of the Martin Bashir interview where Jackson claims that he HAS slept in a bed with children; naming Culkin and his sister. Though it seems like more a group situation. And Culkin to this day asserts Jackson's innocence.

I stand corrected.