Offer to the Truth Movement: Let's Settle It

Thank you for your answers, that's very fine for me. Thank you also for the remark on my use of the words "government's theory", it was actually completely naive and I was trying to find the shortest words to describe the concept! Good thing anyway, maybe your answers would have been shorter if I had stated that I was already long convinced by the NIST report and the "general understanding of the events of 9-11" :) (no way to make it shorter?)
 
Thank you for your answers, that's very fine for me. Thank you also for the remark on my use of the words "government's theory", it was actually completely naive and I was trying to find the shortest words to describe the concept! Good thing anyway, maybe your answers would have been shorter if I had stated that I was already long convinced by the NIST report and the "general understanding of the events of 9-11" :) (no way to make it shorter?)

"Generally accepted version" is what I usually say. Or an acronym like "TOVAKAR" (The Official Version, Also Known as Reality).
 
Why the hell would the Canadian government look for WMDs and, again, what does this have to do with my post ?


Calm down dude..... how the hell am I supposed to know you're Canadian... especially when you type in nonsense for your 'location'.
 
................. There's the existence of a Code of Practice for engineers, which would specifically require them to make any suspicions public; there's been talk of a similar code for physicists, which I personally would support. But mostly, with the exception of a few individuals whose work is full of egregious flaws, there's a roaring silence from a group of professions whose practitioners are not, in my experience, the type to be quietly complicit in anything. Put simply, we're an arrogant and uncooperative bunch, and most of us would be more than happy to stir things up a bit if we thought we had the means to do it.

Dave

A truly laughable argument........ 'the government is right cos me and my mates in scientific community have kept our gobs shut'


Good lord!
 
Carefully examined???......... really.. this is news. Where can I read these reports that examined the steel debris. Let me have the website addresses... if you don't mind.

I don't share your view that evidence would be so obvious. You know the investigators could've made an effort to look if only to clear up the question re exposives. Then we could all be sitting here happy in the knowledge that no explosives were used.... no?

Blanchard states that the steel was forensically examined and he can vouch for the chain of custody. Do you disagree with his claims?

http://www.jod911.com/WTC%20COLLAPSE%20STUDY%20BBlanchard%208-8-06.pdf

If the steel was being forensically examined dont you think they may have noticed explosive damage?

Would the workmen of Yanuzzi Demolition not have noticed evidence of demolition as they handled the steel?
 
No what's truly laughable is the suggestion that false information about a specialist subject can be put out and that specialists in that subject do not dissent. And no, a couple o' hundred semi-relevant specialists signing an internet petition does not dissent make.

The whole structural engineering profession should be up in arms if the flaws in the NIST report are so obvious that even you can spot them. And no, it doesn't do to claim that professionals are unaware of a report such as the one produced by NIST. Professional structural engineers have PI insurance to worry about and developers have buildings insurers to worry about and all of these people NEED to know why the wtc towers collapsed. NIST provided the analysis and professional structural engineers, architects and insurers have not dissented.

Let's try an analogy. Let's say the US government produces a report which states that smoking is really good for you and can keep you safe from catching a cold. We would expect major dissent from such a report within the medical professions, would we not?

So, let's say that the US government produces a report which states that the moon orbits the earth. Are we to assume scientists do not agree with this unless they explicitly state that they do?
 
A truly laughable argument........ 'the government is right cos me and my mates in scientific community have kept our gobs shut'

If anyone had tried to make such an argument, that comment might be warranted. However, nobody has, so you're displaying the dishonesty typical of the "truth" movement by misrepresenting it in that way. I can understand that you might enjoy telling lies, but could you try not to tell obvious ones?

Dave
 
I can understand that you might enjoy telling lies, but could you try not to tell obvious ones?

Here, here, Mr. X! Show a little pride in your work!

We have truthers here who can tell six lies in a single sentence, to distract you from the ten other lies that you didn't even notice. Now THAT'S artistry!
 
Why do truthers insist that the 'official story' is from the government? It's almost as if they believe all the information we have from 911 was released by the government in a vacuum, and all the world's scientists just take it's word for it.

I wonder why that is.....
 
A truly laughable argument........ 'the government is right cos me and my mates in scientific community have kept our gobs shut'


Good lord!


Straw man. The specific issue is whether the vast majority of knowledgeable engineers and scientists support the generally accepted version of events. No one claimed that a lack of dissent, in and of itself, proves that the so-called "official US government story" is correct.

Having said that, let me ask you this, if I may. Assuming, for the sake of argument, that a large majority of engineers and scientists don't believe the generally accepted version of events, then why aren't a significant number speaking out? AE911T in no way qualifies as "a significant number"; they have fewer than 50 members who claim degrees in civil engineering, yet the American Society of Civil Engineers has approximately 75,000 full members.
 
Before proceeding, keep in mind that I'm not criticizing Dave Rogers. I full well understand what he meant by "roaring silence". Instead, I'm criticizing Mr X's misinterpretation of that in saying "... have kept our gobs shut".

First of all, the general architectural and engineering community have not 'kept their gobs shut'. On the contrary, they've produced many works in industry publications, such as the Engineering News Record, or Civil Engineer. Some are available at the bottom of Debunking 9/11's links section. Furthermore, as forum member Architect has pointed out, the EU and Scottish regulatory agencies have adjusted their building codes to reflect new knowledge generated by NIST's study. They're putting their money where their mouth is, so to speak, and building in accordance to knowledge generated by the collapse of the towers (Architect, sir, please feel free to chime in here if you have anything to add to how Europe is treating the findings of the NIST report).

Second, what the architectural and structural engineering community has been silent on is any agreement with the belief in any conspiracy, and with any supposed "findings" generated by the conspiracy peddlers, or with any gross "problems" with the NIST report. It's safe to say that in a situation where professional standards are concerned, if the professional body does not stand up to protest irregularities or gross violations - such as mistakes, or outright fabricated, false data in the NIST reports on the Twin Towers - it's not just scared silence, it's tacit agreement. View the debate amongst professional medical associations in regard to integrating "alternative" medicine for an example of this. Or, take a clear look at Dr. Quintiere's or Dr. Astaneh-Asl's critiques; they're indeed sounding off, but not in the way conspiracy fantasists try to claim they are. At any rate, it's safe to assume that problems which would negatively affect the architectural and structural engineering professions - such as forged data - would elicit a response. The lack of any such general outcry speaks volumes, and no, the misapprehensions listed by signers of the AE911T petition don't count. They're obvious misapprehensions, if not outright misrepresentations of the 9/11 events.

In sum, your characterization of Dave Roger's comments as "... me and my mates in scientific community have kept our gobs shut'" is a misrepresentation. And you should have been able to glean that from the context of his statement.
 
...I wouldn't trust your government to find a WMD...
Why the hell would the Canadian government look for WMDs and, again, what does this have to do with my post ?
Calm down dude..... how the hell am I supposed to know you're Canadian... especially when you type in nonsense for your 'location'.


I like that: “I made a faulty assumption about your nationality based on no evidence, which is somehow your fault.”
 
Re '..........I have never answered with references to NIST as though it was gospel.'

Why? have you got a choice. NIST is your only resource.... unless there's been another investigation that we don't know about.
That fraud that doesn't explain anything... and couldn't even if it tried.

Of course I have a choice. There have been numerous investigations, and several are ongoing. Before NIST, there was the MIT study led by Dr. Wierzbicki, and the Weidlinger Associates and Exponent studies done for the insurance companies. During NIST there was University of Edinburgh and Sheffield, along with some work in China. Ongoing to this day is Arup, University of Maryland, and Purdue, and through it all is the ubiquitous Dr. Bazant of Northwestern.

Understandably, NIST's is the most detailed and comprehensive study, but all of these efforts have their strengths, and many are superior to NIST in one or two specifics. The closest direct comparison to NIST is the work at Purdue. All are worth reading about. All have slightly different conclusions. All support NIST's major findings, and all are 100% at variance with anyone I know of in the Truth Movement.

Again, I spend a lot of time describing, referencing, contrasting, and synthesizing these results in my whitepaper. I did so because there are many like you who are unaware of these other, independent, multi-national efforts, and who would possibly enjoy learning about them.

Since you are apparently unaware of these, some of which are mentioned in the NIST Report itself, I find your reference to it as "that fraud" to be exceptionally arrogant. I trust you have at least read the NIST Executive Summary, and preferably the whole report, before making such a proclamation.

So Dr Jones and his fellow scientists decided to write a letter to Bentham telling them what wonderful work NIST did?..... you really believe that do you? Or are your just pretending for comic effect.

The title of the paper in question is "Fourteen Points of Agreement with Official Government Reports on the World Trade Center Destruction," so the above description is probably a lot closer to the truth than you expect. I don't blame you for being so surprised. Give it a read.

If, after educating yourself about its contents, there's anything in that paper that you feel disproves NIST, I'll be glad to help you see where Dr. Jones has it wrong.

So much for 'unswerving honesty'.

I remind you, keep it respectful. If on the off-chance you think I've made a mistake, I'll be glad to check. There's no need to make irresponsible accusations.

On that note how about we get a copy of that letter/email you got from the 'editor-in-chief of the Journal in question'. You know, so we can check it's authenticity, if it really exists.... and maybe send a copy to Dr Jones...... who lets face it will be shocked to find that the people who published his paper, never bothered reading it.

The JREF Forum does not permit printing of e-mails given in confidence. However, you are welcome to contact him yourself: Dr. Dong-Sheng Jeng of University of Dundee.

You also misunderstood me. The publisher may have read the paper. The publisher handled whatever review process all by himself. This is part of the problem. The editors are the ones who should be handling the review process, and the editor in chief did not read the paper, nor can he find out who, if anyone, did. That's a broken review process, one of the most transparent I've ever come across.

As for your whitepaper. That wouldn't be that magnificent piece of work where you're completely incapable of telling the difference between 'didn't find any evidence of explosives' and 'didn't bother our backsides to look for any evidence of explosives'.

I suspect you can tell the difference, but decided not to...... cos to do so wouldn't been condusive to deluding the already ignorant. And that's the tactic that you and other debunkers rely so heavily on.

I don't know what report you're describing, but it isn't my whitepaper. Again, you should read things before attempting to criticize them. I describe quite thoroughly how NIST did in fact look for explosives, how explosives would have left secondary signatures in other evidence -- signatures that don't exist, how all of the supposed evidence in favor of explosives is not evidence at all, and how there remains no coherent hypothesis in the first place. Without such a hypothesis, you cannot design a specific test for explosives. I explained that in some depth to Swing Dangler early in this thread.

Re 'I've done a literature search, and determined that my concerns are shared by scientists doing continuing research into exactly those areas --'

Very poor arguement... for what, I don't know.
You should attempt to understand what you're criticizing before passing judgment. It's not poor at all. All of the problems I have with NIST are being studied, right now, by some of the best experts one could ask for. All I have to do is wait, and periodically do a journal search for only a handful of names. It's being handled. Problem solved.

There's many highly qualified scientist, engineers, architects, pilots, aviation professionals and professors who have serious doubst/questions regarding NIST findings, and can see it for the nonsense it is.

No, there aren't. If you're referring to such organizations as the Scholars for 9/11 Truth and/or Justice and Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth, they betray through their writings such a comprehensive lack of understanding, they aren't even in a position to question NIST, let alone "see it for nonsense." This too is treated in my whitepaper as a peripheral subject.

---

So far all you've done is question my motivation, and then the contents of papers you apparently haven't read. I remind you, this thread is for asking and answering critical questions. Please return to the topic. Thanks.
 
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So far all you've done is question my motivation, and then the contents of papers you apparently haven't read. I remind you, this thread is for asking and answering critical questions. Please return to the topic. Thanks.


I hope you don't mind a brief diversion from the OP (although it is related), but I wonder if the reason why you haven't gotten the types of responses you were seeking is not so much that the responders cannot think of critical questions, but rather they are still unclear as to what you mean. This is not meant as a cheap shot, but the reading comprehension displayed by some of the CTists is not at a very high level judging by how certain posts, reports, and articles are interpreted here and on other message boards. I know I missed your point as it was stated in the OP. I wonder if it might help if the question were reframed?

I know you have done this a couple of times so far, but I can see a CTist reading "critical question" and thinking to his or herself, "But all questions are critical!"
 
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I hope you don't mind a brief diversion from the OP (although it is related), but I wonder if the reason why you haven't gotten the types of responses you were seeking is not so much that the responders cannot think of critical questions, but rather they are still unclear as to what you mean.

I might agree with you, except some of the more thoughtful posters have gotten it (e.g. RedIbis, Sizzler, even Swingy), and instead remarked that they can't really come up with any.

Also, there are interminable threads on "why do we need a new investigation?" that never, ever come back with good answers. I could rephrase it that way -- what questions are so important that they require a new investigation? I think I did a couple of pages back. The point is, these questions must be such that, if the investigation answers it, then all doubts are gone in the mind of the questioner.

This is half of why I don't support calls for "a new investigation." That new investigation must have, as its very charter, a clearly outlined challenge. "Go investigate so-and-so because we need to know" is not good enough. NIST was charged with "tell us why WTC 1 and WTC 2 collapsed." Period. Unanswered question that demanded a thorough response. That's actionable. I've seen nothing of that caliber presented here, or indeed presented by anyone.

The other half of why I don't support such calls is that there are ongoing investigations, and those so far largely confirm the ones we have. You can even participate. Get a degree, go to grad school, sign up with a research group such as Dr. Irfanoglu's and go to town. "9/11 Science" isn't any different from ordinary science, not if it's done properly.

Anyway, if others want to take a crack at rephrasing my original question, please feel free. Language is a tricky beast.
 
I might agree with you, except some of the more thoughtful posters have gotten it (e.g. RedIbis, Sizzler, even Swingy), and instead remarked that they can't really come up with any.


Mmmm, I disagree a bit. I just went back through the first 5 pages of this thread (before things started to wander off track a bit), and I think the attitude in general fell along the lines of what I will quote from Swing Dangler.

It is an important question to me or I would not have asked it, however, an answer won't necessarily prove or disprove one particular theory or another.


In other words, it seems as if the answers aren't as important as the questions. So even if you manage to get someone to frame a critical question, they may not accept the response as a critical answer.

Also, there are interminable threads on "why do we need a new investigation?" that never, ever come back with good answers. I could rephrase it that way -- what questions are so important that they require a new investigation? I think I did a couple of pages back. The point is, these questions must be such that, if the investigation answers it, then all doubts are gone in the mind of the questioner.


Right, which is why by the scientific/experimental method, the question must be framed in terms of what answer, and what type of answer, is being sought. If the questioner doesn't realize that the questions must be framed in terms of answers (or worse, the questioner doesn't want answers), the exercise is futile. Since you have a background in experimental science, you know the importance of how to ask questions, and I do not think the CTists, sincere or otherwise, have learned this skill. I do not know if this can be taught on an Internet discussion board (although we can try).

As an example, compare the question of "Why didn't the investigators look for evidence of explosives?" to the question, "What evidence is there that could justify an investigation into explosives?" The questions are very similar, but are framed quite differently in terms of expectations.

This is half of why I don't support calls for "a new investigation." That new investigation must have, as its very charter, a clearly outlined challenge. "Go investigate so-and-so because we need to know" is not good enough. NIST was charged with "tell us why WTC 1 and WTC 2 collapsed." Period. Unanswered question that demanded a thorough response. That's actionable. I've seen nothing of that caliber presented here, or indeed presented by anyone.


Absolutely, and it is that expectation that I think is lacking in the questions being asked in this thread.

The other half of why I don't support such calls is that there are ongoing investigations, and those so far largely confirm the ones we have. You can even participate. Get a degree, go to grad school, sign up with a research group such as Dr. Irfanoglu's and go to town. "9/11 Science" isn't any different from ordinary science, not if it's done properly.


I also agree with this, but don't hold out much hope for participation. For many people, science is hard. ;)

Anyway, if others want to take a crack at rephrasing my original question, please feel free. Language is a tricky beast.


I am not the communicator that Myriad is, but I would reframe the OP as follows:

To those of you who are convinced that the US government was in any way directly involved with the events of September 11, 2001, is there a specific reason why you feel this is true? If there are multiple reasons, does any one reason carry more weight with you than any other?

Back to your comments R.Mackey, as you noted earlier in this thread, this does require a shift in thinking on behalf of the responder. But I would also suggest that any resolution of a deep-seated CT requires a shift in thinking on the behalf of those debunkers (for a lack of a better word, sadly) answering these questions. The questions I posed above do not necessarily have an answer based strictly on facts. For example, I think many CTists, at least all those I have met IRL, base their conclusions on a deep distrust of government/authority. Unfortunately, this is not something that can be addressed by facts alone, as the response is often highly emotional.

So, although I could probably reword your OP to be more in line with what you were hoping from this thread, I am not sure I could reword it such that the answers would meet the expectations of the question. *Sigh*
 
So, although I could probably reword your OP to be more in line with what you were hoping from this thread, I am not sure I could reword it such that the answers would meet the expectations of the question. *Sigh*

The truther mantra is "Ask questions, demand answers!" That sounds defiant and courageous, but the reality can be summed up in the following algorithm:

1. Ask questions
2. Demand answers
3. Reject answers
4. Repeat

Note that there is no exit condition, so this is an endlessly repeating loop.

The types of questions requested by this thread are not compatible with this algorithm, because the entire premise is that it should, in principle, provide an exit condition.

Truthers don't play that game.
 
On the surface, this may not seem to meet the bar of being a "critical question", but I think an answer to it might be a step towards resolving uncertainties or outright misrepresentations regarding the study of the steel components at Ground Zero. If nothing else, it's something I've been meaning to chase down myself, but haven't found the time to (so of course I'm taking the lazy way out and bugging others here for the knowledge :D):

We're all aware of the fact that there were multiple entities at Ground Zero examining the debris in the aftermath of the collapse, among them an NYPD Crime Scene Unit, an FBI's Evidence Response Team, the New York City Medical Examiner's representatives (in plain english, the city coroners), the Customs Agency, etc. Of particular interest is the FBI's Evidence Response Team's findings. Are you aware of the release of any report by the FBI documenting their findings at Ground Zero?

Now, keep in mind that I do not expect any such documentation to contain much about the structural steel at all; I would guess that they would have considered many things beyond the steel as evidence. The items submitted in the Moussaoui trial is proof of that. However, I'd be interested to see what little, if any, note they make about the building components. If they make no note, then they make no note, but if they make some mention, I'm curious to see what they say.

And to folks new to the topic who might be lurking here: While I mention the above samping of agencies to provide new members with information they might otherwise not know (too much of 9/11 discussion makes it seem as though only NIST representatives were ever at Ground Zero, and I think it's worth emphasizing that there were many agencies involved; see Gravy's link on the subject for more information), I don't expect much that is relevant to the collapse to come from them. We know that the M.E.'s office, for example, will concern themselves with human remains and little else. And we have indications that the NYPD CSU concentrated on elements other than the buildings components (one such indication is given here: https://www.policeone.com/evidence-...ase-Study-Evidence-Collection-at-Ground-Zero/, quote "... workers began the painstaking process of sifting through the rubble for human remains and personal items..."). So the question is, what did the FBI say/note/discover about the steel components? If they said/noted/discovered anything to begin with, that is. To answer that, I'm asking Ryan (and everyone else here reading this) if they're aware of the FBI's ERT documentation or reports about Ground Zero.

Danke.
 

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