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Offer to the Truth Movement: Let's Settle It

Would a computer model suffice?
It does for me, but that's a question for tanabear. I'm perfectly happy with scientific modeling of bounding cases, and in this particular instance, even simulation isn't required, just basic mathematical modeling. This evidently isn't sufficient for him.

It is an important question to me or I would not have asked it, however, an answer won't necessarily prove or disprove one particular theory or another.


Since you won't answer the question directly as asked, I will rephrase:

"Do you think testing for chemical residue from explosives on steel debris from the twin towers will conclusively prove that explosives were used to destroy any of the towers or explosives were not used to destroy the any of the towers?"

I will answer your question and also try to answer the former.

I do not believe testing for chemical residue is even possible in the WTC case, for a variety of reasons:

  1. If I was running the testing, I would test steel pieces at the initiating event, i.e. the collapse zone. We have exactly zero steel pieces from the core within a floor of the point of failure, from either structure. All of them were so heavily damaged that they could not be identified.
  2. We would, therefore, have to test a much larger volume of steel. This introduces uncertainties. First, we know we're contaminating our sample, and so the likelihood of false-negative goes up substantially; we thus have to adjust our sensitivity, and this affects false-positive as well. Second, the damage suffered by the core columns that prevents identification also is expected to interfere with the chemical signatures. Third, even if we believe we have a positive result, we cannot uniquely position them and thus cannot confirm it either way. Results are, therefore, almost guaranteed to be inconclusive.
  3. As if that wasn't bad enough, the fires in particular are expected to destroy such chemical residue. Explosives, with no exceptions that I am aware of, are highly heat sensitive. That goes for their products as well. Even if the chemicals remained intact, most would have been baked off, melted, expressed as volatiles in the plume rather than found on the steel itself.
  4. The fires also create a confounding signal. Burning plastics create a diversity of aromatic compounds. There are several official reports confirming this.
  5. As a result, I do not see any possiblity of these tests being conclusive.

The more rational approach is to focus on explosives signatures that are not susceptible to these effects, of which there are several. Perhaps the most acceptable signature, from your perspective, is the characteristic fracture pattern created by explosives. Again, this is not wholly conclusive because not all steel could be identified and much was heavily damaged, but this test was conducted. All of the recovered steel was examined by experts for signs of unusual failure modes. This failure mode was not seen in any piece of steel. That's about as close as we are likely to ever come to proving a negative.

The reason I don't feel there is any hypocrisy here -- my stating a belief that there were no explosives, based on no testing, while rejecting a belief in molten steel, also based on no testing -- is that the two situations are not actually symmetric. As I've described above, there actually have been tests that should have revealed explosives. Chemical tests, no, but tests nonetheless.

Regarding molten steel, on the other hand, if you actually go to the source of the "molten steel" statements, not a single one was made by an expert, and two of the five I know about have been traced to transcription errors and thus never occurred at all. Furthermore, the signature of molten steel, unlike the chemical residue, includes "pigs" of formerly molten steel. It is not nearly so fragile a signature, and it is expected to survive the collapses, fires, and cleanup process. It also would have been found through simple sorting and inspection, and does not require a specialized test. Nonetheless, it was not found. I am therefore more comfortable declaring this negative result. I don't find this to be hypocritical at all.

So by your critical question can be defined as: "If I, R Mackey, provide a suitable answer to the question, you will stop believing in conspiracy theories that implicate members of the U.S. Federal Government."

That is essentially what I'm asking for, yes. It's a tall order, I admit. However, anyone who harbors such beliefs for logical reasons must be able to express this, if she thinks about it hard enough.
 
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"Do you think testing for chemical residue from explosives on steel debris from the twin towers will conclusively prove that explosives were used to destroy any of the towers or explosives were not used to destroy the any of the towers?"
Though such test would conclusively answer the question, the question for you is why test it at all? In your sniper scenario, they have the gun, shell casing, the bullet and autopsy reports that show the person died from the gunshot wound. Do you believe that they should exhume the body to test for a heart attack because several eyewitness stated that all they saw was the person grab his chest and collapse?
 
Though such test would conclusively answer the question, the question for you is why test it at all? In your sniper scenario, they have the gun, shell casing, the bullet and autopsy reports that show the person died from the gunshot wound. Do you believe that they should exhume the body to test for a heart attack because several eyewitness stated that all they saw was the person grab his chest and collapse?

Or better yet, exhume the body to test for poison because people don't always die when shot, and when it's discovered that the decomposition has made testing impossible cry "Conspiracy!!11!!111eleventy!"
 
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The debunking community ( I use this term loosely) discount, ignore, or explain away eyewitnesses who describe molten steel with the excuse that no tests were done to prove that the metal in question was steel. The issue is labeled as dead or debunked.


No one was competent to identify molten "steel." The fantasy movement has pretended that Mark Loizeaux called the molten metal "steel." Loizeaux has explained that he didn't see it with his own eyes and could not possibly identify it specifically as steel.


However, when the issue of explosives in any of the towers is brought up by the movement they categorically deny the use of any explosives despite the fact that no chemical tests were done to prove one way or another.

Why doesn't the debunker community state, "Yes the possibility does exists for explosives and that chemical testing would prove one way or the other."


You are, as usual, flat-out lying. The FBI found no chemical traces of explosives. Brent Blanchard comments in the Protec paper that his team found no detonator caps, no bits of wiring, and no chemical signatures of any commonly-used explosives (yeah, yeah--it was an uncommon explosive: we all know the game by now).


Why is there a hypocritical approach to the process?

In other words, we don't know if that metal was steel or not because no tests were done.
But the debunker rejects the same reasoning when applied to the use of explosives.


The conspiracy liars are the hypocrites. They make slanderous, wild charges and produce zero supporting evidence.



Is this your honest approach to the spirit of cooperation between the two sides? I took this as a stealth "stab" and that your OP is not quite as sincere as you would like it to be.



Ryan Mackey is 100% sincere, i.e., he is as sincere as you are dishonest.
 
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So you're saying that, if I answer this question, and hypothetically speaking you can accept that my answer is correct, you will no longer believe in 9/11 conspiracy theories?

Those are the questions I'm asking for. So far, everyone seems afraid to ask them, but instead focuses on minutiae. This is a losing strategy for you. We can go back to these trifles once we deal with the big questions, but let's start at the top, shall we?

If you cannot come up with the critical questions you have, then your beliefs are unfounded. Think about it.

ok when you think you can convince me with answering 1 question......

bye bye
 
Since I do not have the resources at my disposal to build a structure and crash an aircraft into it, I humbly submit that neither I, nor indeed anyone in the world, are likely to satisfy you. You may wish to relax your constraints accordingly.

I personally find such a hard opinion to be untenable. For instance, do you believe in black holes? The Moon Landings? Giant squids? Nobel laureates? Have you ever actually seen any of these things?

Why not? Demolition companies demolish buildings quite frequently. WTC7 was never hit by a plane. So why not use a wrecking ball to simulate the impact damage then light some fires where you think it would be helpful. After that, we should see the building come down just like an implosion, except without using cutter charges. A demolition company should be able to do this.

None of your examples, except maybe for the moon landing, have to do with the experimental method. We can only know certain things through the words of others (hearsay). We can each decide whether or not to accept the validity of those sources. For example, how do we know our date of birth? We know it because other people(parents) told us our date of birth. We have no real way to verify it. Unless, of course, one were to invent a time machine. There might documents that we can check, but there is no experiment we can do to verify this. NIST is making a claim as to how the buildings collapsed. This can be tested through the experimental method. It has not been done yet. Why not?

What's stopping you and the "truth" movement from doing this if it all that it would take? (Let me give you a hint. talking to structural engineers would be cheaper)

Individuals within the 9/11 Truth Movement are skeptical that such an event is possible the way NIST says it is. So what is stopping us? The same thing that is stopping the Randians from proving psychic ability is possible. Reality. However, since the people here at JREF believe that NIST science is valid, please give me your method on how to demolish a steel-frame high-rise with impact damage and fire. I will forward such a technique to a structural engineer or a demolition expert. NIST science is applicable to the real world, right?

And what are the chances for either a real world experiment or a computer simulation satisfying 'truthers' if the buildings still collapsed?

I told you what I would require to have my "conspiracy beliefs" falsified. If you don't think the experimental method is valid, then please tell me why not?
 
Individuals within the 9/11 Truth Movement are skeptical that such an event is possible the way NIST says it is. So what is stopping us? The same thing that is stopping the Randians from proving psychic ability is possible. Reality. However, since the people here at JREF believe that NIST science is valid, please give me your method on how to demolish a steel-frame high-rise with impact damage and fire. I will forward such a technique to a structural engineer or a demolition expert. NIST science is applicable to the real world, right?

There's no need for me to forward anything. These principles are well understood and are taken into consideration when buildings are designed.

You do trust that engineers can design buildings on paper don't you?
 
Why not? Demolition companies demolish buildings quite frequently. WTC7 was never hit by a plane. So why not use a wrecking ball to simulate the impact damage then light some fires where you think it would be helpful. After that, we should see the building come down just like an implosion, except without using cutter charges. A demolition company should be able to do this.

Great idea. We have all kinds of abandoned 47 story buildings lying around with nothing else nearby. What could be safer? Let's randomly use...





...




...wait, do you honestly think you can swing a wrecking ball downward onto the roof of a skyscraper to simulate the debris that fell on WTC-7? :boggled:







...







I'm racking my brain to think of a better one, but that goes so far beyond Stundie material it's mindblowing. In a movement that has used chicken wire and cardboard boxes in their demonstrations.... in a movement that planned to use thermite at Burning Man... in a movement built on bad youtube, clunkity clunk, visionaries who will someday be compared to Galileo after he proved the world was round, and a level of paranoia that would make a mountain of crystal meth proud...

...you may have just delivered the single dumbest idea ever to come out of the truth movement. You probably don't believe me, but I'm honestly impressed.
 
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There's no need for me to forward anything. These principles are well understood and are taken into consideration when buildings are designed.

You do trust that engineers can design buildings on paper don't you?

Yes, engineers can design buildings on paper. Drawings can then be taken to create actual buildings. Also, structures can be created without having them on paper first. If these principles are well understood then the technique for destroying a steel-frame high-rise with impact damage and fire should be readily available. Where can I see these well understood principles in action?
 
If these principles are well understood then the technique for destroying a steel-frame high-rise with impact damage and fire should be readily available. Where can I see these well understood principles in action?


EDIT: Removed obvious response, out of respect for R.Mackey's aims for the thread.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
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Again, your missing the point. The point is the logical thought process that debunkers go with regards to chemical testing.

Nope, you're missing the point. You expect people to prove you wrong, instead of proving yourself right.

Guilty until proven innocent, that's how you think.
 
Hi Ryan,

As you know, I am 100% woo-free. There has been one thing that has always bothered me about the Commission Report. (I would like anyones opinion on this)

Bush was asked to be interviewed alone. He insisted that Cheney be with him. When asked by a reporter why he wanted Cheney there, his response was: Because the 911 Commission wants to ask me questions and I am looking forward to answering them.

Now. personally I think Bush didn't want to f-himself into showing how inadequate of a leader he is/was. I am just curious what others think.
 
Hi Ryan,

As you know, I am 100% woo-free. There has been one thing that has always bothered me about the Commission Report. (I would like anyones opinion on this)

Bush was asked to be interviewed alone. He insisted that Cheney be with him. When asked by a reporter why he wanted Cheney there, his response was: Because the 911 Commission wants to ask me questions and I am looking forward to answering them.

Now. personally I think Bush didn't want to f-himself into showing how inadequate of a leader he is/was. I am just curious what others think.

I just wish that reporters would more often Bumb avoided and ignored questions more often, like some "Skeptics" do to truthers.
 
Trivially. The put options make sense if you recall what was going on with airline stocks at the time, and if you view the larger pattern of specific investors, you find that the "putter" made opposite bids on American and United... This is nothing more than Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy in action. Even Snopes has dealt with this one.

Why didn't the commission (or snopes) address this?

-Morgan Stanley Dean Witter & Co, which occupied 22 floors of the World Trade Centre, saw 2,157 of its October $45 put options bought in the three trading days before September 11. This is against an average of 27 contracts per day before September 6. Morgan Stanley's share price fell from $48.90 to $42.50 after the attacks. Assuming that 2,000 of these options contracts had been bought based on knowledge of the impending attacks, their purchasers could have profited by at least $1.2 million.

-Merrill Lynch & Co, which also occupied 22 floors of the World Trade Centre, saw 12,215 October series $45 put option bought in the four trading days before attacks, a 1,200 per cent jump from the average trade volume of about 250 contracts a day. When trading resumed, Merrill's shares fell from $46.88 to $41.50. Assuming that 11,000 option contracts had been bought by 'insiders,' their profit would have been $5.5 million.

http://www.ict.org.il/index.php?sid=119〈=en&act=page&id=5230&str=insider+trading
 
Where is the follow up to this story?

Computer disk drives from WTC could yield clues
By Rick Perera IDG News Service, Berlin Bureau

(IDG) -- A new data-recovery technique could help trace suspicious financial transactions made shortly before the terrorist attacks in the U.S. on September 11.
An unexplained surge in transactions was recorded prior to the attacks, leading to speculation that someone might have profited from previous knowledge of the terrorist plot by moving sums of money. But because the facilities of many financial companies processing the transactions were housed in New York's World Trade Center, destroyed in the blasts, it has until now been impossible to verify that suspicion.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/TECH/industry/12/20/wtc.harddrives.idg/
 
Do you agree with this man?

9/11 Commission co-chair Lee Hamilton says "I don't believe for a minute we got everything right", that the Commission was set up to fail, that people should keep asking questions about 9/11, that the 9/11 debate should continue, and that the 9/11 Commission report was only "the first draft" of history.

http://www.911podcasts.com/files/video/CBCSunday_20060910.wmv
 
Hmmm.....?

Investigators for the Congressional Joint Inquiry had stumbled across documents within the San Diego FBI office that showed an FBI informant in the local Muslim community had hosted and even rented a room to two hijackers in 2000. When the Inquiry sought to interview the informant, the FBI at first balked, then refused outright, and then hid him in an unknown location. Later, according to Bob Graham's own account in his book INTELLIGENCE MATTERS, a high-level FBI official told him these blocking maneuvers were undertaken under orders from the White House. While the 9/11 Commission managed to speak with the informant once, it made scant mention of him in its report.

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/05/11/con05439.html
 
No one was competent to identify molten "steel."

[....Mindless Drivel...]

a shame Mark didnt see or get that "molten metal/steel" into his hands.
would he be competent to identify it?
 
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There are some serious problems with the truth movement.

The basic one is this. I have many times tried to come up with some sort of a truther theory of 9/11, that would actually be plausible and make sense. But I have never succeeded in putting together even a remotely possible chain of events. I can only come up with some individual claims, but viewed in the light of other evidence I would always have to add more and more oddities on top of that initial claim to make it sensible. And after a short while, I'm only left with a ridicilous theory.

Let me give an example.

[truther mode]WTC 7 was demolished. There were some hot spots underneath the rubble, so they must have used thermite. But there was damage to the south facade, so because they had to have an excuse to bring down building 7, so they blew up WTC 1 & 2 earlier to give some "damage" to WTC 7. Of course, since the lateral ejections of steel were impossible without explosives, they used explosives to bring down WTC 1 & 2. But how did they know exactly where the planes would hit, so they could start the demolitions from those points? They used remote controlled planes. It is possible!![/end]

In only a few sentences I went from thermite and demolition of 1 building, to remote controlled planes and demolition of 3 buildings using two different techniques. Consequently, the number of people involved grew dramatically.

Truth movement. There is a reason why Griffin et.al. never develop a full theory. If they ever would, it would be a ridicilous one and they would be laughed off the planet.
 

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