Of "In-Group" & "Race"

Hi- this is a longish thread and I tried to read and absorb, but I still have the main question. What is the real question? Does anyone have one? This is a lot of subtle maneuvering but I can't for the life of me figure out what is the main issue. Thesis. Hypothesis. Research question. Gap in the literature. My request is that somebody throw the bone, versus red meat.

Here's my interest: Why should anybody, say me, really care that much about whether human differences can be correlated with genetics, or geography? What will it mean in practical terms to, say, me? And to head it off, I'm fairly well-educated and well-read, not a dum-dum. If I don't care that much (because I'm just into other things at the moment), why do you care? Tell me about it, help me understand the importance of this.
 
Hi- this is a longish thread and I tried to read and absorb, but I still have the main question. What is the real question? Does anyone have one? This is a lot of subtle maneuvering but I can't for the life of me figure out what is the main issue. Thesis. Hypothesis. Research question. Gap in the literature. My request is that somebody throw the bone, versus red meat.

Here's my interest: Why should anybody, say me, really care that much about whether human differences can be correlated with genetics, or geography? What will it mean in practical terms to, say, me? And to head it off, I'm fairly well-educated and well-read, not a dum-dum. If I don't care that much (because I'm just into other things at the moment), why do you care? Tell me about it, help me understand the importance of this.

I don't claim it's important, just interesting, in the same way that finding out matter composition of Charon is interesting. To the extent it exists, it's a natural phenomenon.

I do have real questions, and folks like DrKitten have already pointed me towards where the best current answers may lie.

1. How exactly do human geographic/migratory subpopulations branch off, from the largest subpopopulations to the smallest subpopulations and all that in between.
2. What are all the various human abilities that we study? How many are there? How do we categorize them? How do we measure them? What's the state of that field over all? These questions are not just restricted to intelligence nor to IQ testing (please don't use the previous sentence to tell us all that intelligence testing is bunk or IQ testing is bunk. These points have been made a dozen times in the thread.)
3. To what extent have we assessed if any of the human abilities that we study have a genetic component to them? What is current research in the field, and what do we seem likely to discover about this in the next few decades to come?
4. To what extent have we assessed if any of the human abilities that we study have a heritable genetic component to them? What is current research in the field, and what do we seem likely to discover about this in the next few decades to come?
5. To what extent have we assessed if the heritable genetic component to any ability differences between humans varies between human subpopulations in frequency? or in any other way?

And there are plenty more questions where that came from. :D
 
Thanks. I'm not sure what he's even guessing about my politics. My politics tends to be in line with most scientists at this time, and that makes its very much opposed to the the administration and the religious right at this time. However, I am a registered independent and consider myself a feminist, left leaning with libertarian streaks--but I don't really get into politics except in my area of expertise--genetics--evoloution --that whole brouhaha. I feel rather fortunate to live in a time when we can know so much and chagrined by the those who can't share in the information because they think they already know everything (or perhaps the evidence will spoil whatever it is they want to believe).

I don't think I'll respond to Dave, because I'm not sure what he means much of the time, and I agree with your assessment of his immaturity. Plus he doesn't seem to give a very careful or thorough reading to what anyone else is saying from what I can tell. Besides, I think my reply to Yahtzee covers whatever it is he is trying to say.

Comparing and contrasting populations have lead to some very important genetic studies and narrowed down gene searches immensely. If someone wants to apply loaded terms like to the details of any given study and then lable that study racist or not valid it's hardly better than creationist banter in terms of furthering understanding. Pointing out specific flaws in the design or different interpretation of the data can be useful in designing and researching data that corrects for such errors to hone our understanding further.

I think you may be confusing me for someone else. I'd say Yahtzee but apparently not since you name him separately in this post.

Your posts, which I find fascinating and illuminating, have points that I think that we are all discouraged from discussing publicly and non-anonymously.

Because there seem to me to be social repercussions in public from straying from proclaiming that all human subpopulations (particularly subpopulations differentiated by geographic/migratory history) have equal frequency of ability across the board.

My main issue in this thread is people who look at it and feel compelled, over and over, to make the one publicly safe point: that white people are not genetically smarter than black people.

That's never been your approach in this thread, I've never criticized you for it, so I'm not sure why you think I ever attacked you for your politics.

But again, I think perhaps you have me confused for another poster?
 
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1. How exactly do human geographic/migratory subpopulations branch off, from the largest subpopopulations to the smallest subpopulations and all that in between.
2. What are all the various human abilities that we study? How many are there? How do we categorize them? How do we measure them? What's the state of that field over all? These questions are not just restricted to intelligence nor to IQ testing (please don't use the previous sentence to tell us all that intelligence testing is bunk or IQ testing is bunk. These points have been made a dozen times in the thread.)
3. To what extent have we assessed if any of the human abilities that we study have a genetic component to them? What is current research in the field, and what do we seem likely to discover about this in the next few decades to come?
4. To what extent have we assessed if any of the human abilities that we study have a heritable genetic component to them? What is current research in the field, and what do we seem likely to discover about this in the next few decades to come?
5. To what extent have we assessed if the heritable genetic component to any ability differences between humans varies between human subpopulations in frequency? or in any other way?

And there are plenty more questions where that came from. :D

Hey man, here's my best

1. That is still a matter of great speculative interest, with competing evidence-based theories making up a great deal of very smart people's professional lives.

2. This is a question that merits the study of yet more literature. Lee Cronbach is one of the best of this area, he is an entertaning sage.

3. Well-framed question, unanswered as of yet. Jump in and join the fun.

4. Jack Squat. Join the fun if you want to!

5. This one would be Jack Poop. Design a study, share your results. It's fun!
 
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IF IQ tests are worthless, why do the courts let employers use them?

Really? Which courts? Which states?

My understanding is that blanket IQ tests cannot be used by any employer except the military, precisely because the military has a blanket exemption from more or less all anti-discrimination laws.

What are permitted are aptitude tests -- but they must be individually calibrated to the tasks of the individual employer and job.


Provide a valid answer, and I will drop out of further IQ debates.

A "valid answer"? Your questions are based on an incorrect presupposition of the facts.
 
You are being unnecessarily generous.

You see generosity -- I see precision.

We don't allow theologians to retrofit their theories to match the data and claim they were right all along; we don't need to allow racists that courtesy either.

But by the same token, we don't allow other people to claim that theologians are never right. Even a blind squirrel can find a nut once in a while, as a student of mine used to say.

... which is why I was at such pains to point out that your statement that

The social theory of race is just wrong. The common understanding of race is meaningless, despite its occasional accidental hits (saying that Asians are not blond is no more impressive than Slyvia saying that 70 year old men can expect heart trouble).

is wrong.

If you don't like Asians and blonde hair -- then here's another example, one with more meat on it. My understanding -- I'll let the epidemiologists correct me if I've got this wrong, is that "blacks" (Americans of African decent) are known to have significantly higher rates of heart disease than "whites," but significantly lower rates of multiple sclerosis (MS). Both heart trouble and MS are believed to have a strong genetic component.

So -- is the difference purely genetic, or purely environmental, or a combination? If it's other than purely-environmental (and let's face it, anything complex enough to be worth studying isn't purely-anything), then there's a widespread genetic variation that causes a disposition to MS. And to heart disease. And one that correlates with percieved race. So these "racial variations" are good spots to start looking.

Especially if MS isn't simply a one-gene variation (like FOXP2). I'm fairly confident it isn't. If it's related to a cluster of correlated genes -- genes that also correlate with race -- then looking for the genes that cluster with perceived race is about the only way to start lookiing for that particular cluster. Otherwise, the combinatorial explosion will probably kill us. So what genes do "whites" have in greater numbers than "blacks"?

Another example is the recent "ethnic-drug" (BiDil), which has been shown clinically to be more effective in blacks than in whites. Presumably there's a reason, and if you've got a better spot to start looking for a possible genetic basis than in the genes that differ, I'd like to know what that spot is.
 
Really? Which courts? Which states?

My understanding is that blanket IQ tests cannot be used by any employer except the military, precisely because the military has a blanket exemption from more or less all anti-discrimination laws.

What are permitted are aptitude tests -- but they must be individually calibrated to the tasks of the individual employer and job.




A "valid answer"? Your questions are based on an incorrect presupposition of the facts.

See, this is what bothers me. I may be reading the tone wrong, but you come across as smug and well read, yet what you say demonstrates profound ignorance of the issues. It's like asking how come there's still monkeys if'n we evolved from them.

Why I always participate in these IQ threads-- I don't care if people think the IQ test is the best thing since sliced bread, or sleep with a copy of mismeasure under their pillows, I'd just hope as skeptics they'd base their opinion on the readilly available literature (100 years worth!) on the topic.

I've never seen an area where skeptics so often drop the ball.

Shoenfelt & Pedigo (2005). A review of court decisions on cognitive ability testing, 1992-2004. Review of Public Personnel Administration.

"In sum, cognitive abilities have great potential for utility in the selection process and are likely the best predictors of job performance across a wide range of occupational settings. However, cognitive ability testing is likely to result in race-based adverse impact. The current review suggests that organizations that use professionally developed standardized cognitive ability tests that are validated are likely to fare well in court".


From www.wonderlic.com. (the wonderlic is a g loaded "blanket" IQ test-- it was the one used in griggs v. duke power in 1971, and has since been vindicated by psychometricians doing presumably junk science):

Since 1937, more than 120 million people at thousands of organizations worldwide have taken the WPT.

That's a lot of people taking the test! Surely the courts would be worried were it lacking in validity, especially since it indeed creates adverse impact.

Here's an interesting quote-- Remington college switched to using the wonderlic to avoid legal issues, as the test's validity seems unrivaled!

"Remington College made the transition to using the Wonderlic SLE as part of its admissions criteria for all of its campuses three years ago. Based in Little Rock, Ark., Remington College has more than 20 locations nationwide offering training for medical, technology, criminal justice, and other careers. Remington had already been using the Wonderlic Personnel Test as a corporate hiring tool, and its academic version – the SLE – as a selection assessment for students in states where testing is mandatory. But as the school grew, the need for stricter admissions standards increased, so the test was implemented at every campus as a mandatory criterion for acceptance.

"We started using the Wonderlic as an assessment at all the schools for several reasons," says Mike Lanouette. Chief Academic Officer. The primary reasons were: to avoid the legal issues that can results from the perception of bias when different criteria for acceptance are used at different campuses, and to ensure that every student had the ability to succeed in their programs. "The SLE is an easy way to identify whether people have a good chance of doing well in our programs, and it helps us identify students with a high probability for academic issues that might require additional help."

Unlike admissions tests that measure students' English and math skills, the Wonderlic test measures cognitive ability, which is the single strongest predictor of academic success as well as ultimate job success, Long notes. "English and math tests tell you what students have already learned. A cognitive test tells you what they are capable of learning. That's the true indicator of ability."
 
Frank L. Schmidt ‌
Tippie College of Business, University of Iowa



Given the overwhelming research evidence showing the strong link between general cognitive ability (GCA) and job performance, it is not logically possible for industrial -organizational (I/O) psychologists to have a serious debate over whether GCA is important for job performance. However, even if none of this evidence existed in I/O psychology, research findings in differential psychology on the nature and correlates of GCA provide a sufficient basis for the conclusion that GCA is strongly related to job performance. In I/O psychology, the theoretical basis for the empirical evidence linking GCA and job performance is rarely presented, but is critical to understanding and acceptance of these findings. The theory explains the why behind the empirical findings. From the viewpoint of the kind of world we would like to live in-and would like to believe we live in-the research findings on GCA are not what most people would hope for and are not welcome. However, if we want to remain a science-based field, we cannot reject what we know to be true in favor of what we would like to be true.
 
While IQ is sometimes treated as an end unto itself, scholarly work on IQ focuses to a large extent on IQ's validity, that is, the degree to which IQ predicts outcomes such as job performance, social pathologies, or academic achievement. Different IQ tests differ in their validity for various outcomes.

Tests also differ in their g-loading, which is the degree to which the test score reflects general mental ability rather than a specific skill or "group factor" such as verbal ability, spatial visualization, or mathematical reasoning). g-loading and validity have been observed to be related in the sense that most ******IQ tests derive their validity mostly or entirely from the degree to which they measure g (Jensen 1998).****
 
Shoenfelt & Pedigo (2005). A review of court decisions on cognitive ability testing, 1992-2004. Review of Public Personnel Administration.

"Cognitive ability testing" is not IQ testing.

Re-read your own sources. That's exactly the legal minefield that the courts have been wading through -- the difference being that "cognitive abilities" are a much more general term -- and the employer must be able to show the relationship between the specific cognitive ablilities tested and the job tested for.
 
"Cognitive ability testing" is not IQ testing.

Re-read your own sources. That's exactly the legal minefield that the courts have been wading through -- the difference being that "cognitive abilities" are a much more general term -- and the employer must be able to show the relationship between the specific cognitive ablilities tested and the job tested for.


What courts have been wading through this?

Are you making this up?

Validity is a simple concept, especially from a legal point of view.

Show that scores on the overall test predict / correlate with job performance.

They do-- always, but only to the extent they measure general congitive ability, g!

The last 30 years of research in the area has shown that no specific cognitive ability adds much (has incremental validity) when g is already accounted for.

You can't even measure a specific cognitive ability without also measuring g....

I know of no court decision that requires a company to show *why* the test has validity, or why theoretically it predicts job performance-- the legal requirement is to show just that it does. (In fact, face validity is not even required; witness the validity and utility of the MMPI as a classic example).

This is also the position of the Uniform Guidelines for Employee Selection, which is the handbook any employer uses to ensure it's selection procedures comply with federal law.
 
Yawn. Good night, Gracie.

I think bpesta deserves a better response than that. Even if the response is "I don't know enough about the specifics of this subtopic to critique your claims about it, but I'm skeptical that it's as you presented it".
 
bpesta: It seems counterintuitive to me that one thing "g" correlates with job performance and academic performance in any type of brain work rather than anything else. The cognitive skills to succeed in mechanical engineering and literary criticism, for example, just seem like they would be too different, and would select for people with rather different cognitive abilities. Could you flesh this out for us?
 
Thanks. I'm not sure what he's even guessing about my politics. My politics tends to be in line with most scientists at this time, and that makes its very much opposed to the the administration and the religious right at this time. However, I am a registered independent and consider myself a feminist, left leaning with libertarian streaks--but I don't really get into politics except in my area of expertise--genetics--evoloution --that whole brouhaha. I feel rather fortunate to live in a time when we can know so much and chagrined by the those who can't share in the information because they think they already know everything (or perhaps the evidence will spoil whatever it is they want to believe).

Well stated. I'm all for allowing any line of inquiry into anything. If the conclusions drawn by the researchers are based on, or influenced by, their own bias then they will be very unlikely to stand up in the light of peer review. This has been proved true often enough. The most damaging criticisms of the claims of researchers like Glayde Whitney or David Irving have come from their own fields of study and have addressed only their academic claims without making any appeal to politics or emotion. Throughout history it seems to me that the ones who are most anxious to restrict thought are usually the ones with the most to hide.

Comparing and contrasting populations have lead to some very important genetic studies and narrowed down gene searches immensely. If someone wants to apply loaded terms like to the details of any given study and then lable that study racist or not valid it's hardly better than creationist banter in terms of furthering understanding. Pointing out specific flaws in the design or different interpretation of the data can be useful in designing and researching data that corrects for such errors to hone our understanding further.

I completely agree. In fact, the works I've cited earlier have influenced my position tremendously. They would not have been possible had some authority labeled their phylogenetic content "too controversial" for study. Humans have a rich heritage that is more than ever before open to scientific understanding with our newest tools and techniques. It's an exciting time.

Steven
 
So -- is the difference purely genetic, or purely environmental, or a combination?
It doesn't matter. The people who invented the social theory of race, and the ones who perpetuate it, are totally uninterested in heart disease. Showing that African-Americans and Africans are similar in heart disease, and dissimilar to European Americans, is totally uninteresting to them. It is not a prediction their theory offered. It is an accidental truth.

The social theory of race is wrong, because the predictions it makes are wrong. The fact that you can find other correlations in no way validates the social theory of race.

"I believe it is an established maxim in morals that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false, is guilty of falsehood; and the accidental truth of the assertion, does not justify or excuse him."
~Abraham Lincoln

The racists are flat-up wrong, and there is nothing wrong in saying so, quite loudly. The fact that there are genetic populations with similar traits no more validates the social theory of race than the fact that Egypt actually existed validates Exodus.

And one that correlates with percieved race.
No it does not. Black men with white skin presumabely fall into the black category of heart disease, and we have no evidence to assume the different kinds of black people (the three mentioned in Africa, and the Austrailians) all test out the same - even though the "percieved race" puts them all in the same category.

Presumably there's a reason
I gaurantee you that reason has nothing to do with mental ability. Therefore, it has nothing to do with the social theory of race.

People with a similar genetic heritage share the same skin color. This fact is entirely opposite of the social theory of race, which says that people with a similar skin color share a genetic heritage.
 
No it does not. Black men with white skin presumabely fall into the black category of heart disease, and we have no evidence to assume the different kinds of black people (the three mentioned in Africa, and the Austrailians) all test out the same - even though the "percieved race" puts them all in the same category.

You know, that's one of the things I love about this forum. I have people who are perfectly willing to tell me what I'll find before I even do the experiment. I was going to go do some astronomy tonight, too. Would you mind telling me which direction to point the 'scope so that I can discover a previously unknown comet?
 
What is the real question?
The real question is: can we speculate on racial differences in ability before we have demonstrated a scientifically coherent definition of race and the ability to measure differences in ability to any reasonable degree?

Some people say, "Sure. Just because the differences we are claiming to measure are smaller than the errors in our metrics shouldn't stop us from spouting off about how stupid other people are."

Other people say, "Social attitudes matter - in direct, measurable, biological ways - and until we have a valid reason for spouting off this crap, we should just shut the hell up. In fact, as a general principle, if we don't know, and we can't know because our instruments are not yet capable of measuring that finely, then we should restrict our speculations to clearly labeled works of fiction."

You will find that many people on this board readily apply those standards to religion. You will then find that, quite surprisingly, some subset of those people are not so ready to apply those standards to other social theories, like race.

why do you care?
There is really only one reason to care: because you don't want your superior race diluted by the genes of sub-optimal humans. Whose sub-optimization you have detected by magical means or through cultural bias.

There is also the recognition that different genetic populations - i.e. people with the same ancestors, usually from the same geographic region - share certain variations, like susceptiblity or resistance to diseases and genetic conditions. But this has nothing to do with race: this has nothing to do with the idea that black skin means you're stupid.

Let's face it: that is what the social theory of race means. Dressing it up in other clothes, pretending that its accidental observations somehow lend it validity, is just as ludicrous as pretending that the Bible is not about superstition and murdering people who question authority.
 
You know, that's one of the things I love about this forum. I have people who are perfectly willing to tell me what I'll find before I even do the experiment.
Until the test is done, citing the results as a hit for the social theory of race seems premature, doesn't it?

Why is it bad for me to say I think it will go one way, but ok for you to presume it will go the other way?

Which makes my entire point: we simply don't know enough to make these speculations.

Again: the social theory of race is that people with black skin share a similar genetic heritage. This has nothing at all to do with the scientific theory of genetic populations, which asserts that people with a shared genetic heritage tend to have the same skin color.
 

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