Of "In-Group" & "Race"

"The Bell Curve," in a nutty shell:

Q: How do we know blacks are stupid?
A: Because they are poor!

Q: Why are blacks poor?
A: Because they are stupid!

QED.


If you go looking for these studies, this is the kind of logic you will find.

I'm going to preface my answer by saying that I think the thesis in the Bell Curve (a structural, genetically-based, intelligence gap between races) is wrong.

However, I think the above description is a misrepresentation of the Bell Curve's claim. They are claiming that blacks are less intelligent because they score lower on IQ tests. They make a good case for the test's validity.

Where I part with their reasoning is that they dismiss social explanations without good justification, and their thesis goes completely off the rails from that point on.
 
I'm going to preface my answer by saying that I think the thesis in the Bell Curve (a structural, genetically-based, intelligence gap between races) is wrong.

However, I think the above description is a misrepresentation of the Bell Curve's claim. They are claiming that blacks are less intelligent because they score lower on IQ tests. They make a good case for the test's validity.

Where I part with their reasoning is that they dismiss social explanations without good justification, and their thesis goes completely off the rails from that point on.


I agree, and it's now been over 10 years since it was published. I'd dare say the bell curve data have withstood the test of time-- sciencewise-- far more than anything gould wrote in mismeasure.
 
I agree, and it's now been over 10 years since it was published. I'd dare say the bell curve data have withstood the test of time-- sciencewise-- far more than anything gould wrote in mismeasure.

I have mixed feelings about that. Gould wrote Mismeasure before the Bell Curve, and only in a later edition did he revise it to include specific refutations. I was settling in for a battle of the books, but then all the participants went and died on me, and the dialogue stopped. Selfish bastards.

Gould's Mismeasure is an excellent introduction to the history of the abuse of IQ testing, and the history of good and bad science is Gould's forte, and I'd recommend the book to anyone. The story of Cox and his cranial capacity study also provides an example of the value of experimenter blinding, as well. I'm particularly impressed with his efforts to unearth the original Kallikak photos, and his discovery that they were altered with ink to exaggerate the family's appearance. Exposing such a blatant forgery is a demonstration of how totally dishonest the field was in that era, and it's a story that needs to be known.

I further recommend it to insomniacs: turn to the chapter on axis rotation. You'll drop off in minutes.
 
You seem to me to be stuck with him in an either/or frame. I don't see why breeding and peak-performer identifying and project-channeling can't be done in tandem.

See below.




Your comment about horses, although I have no idea how analogous the limits of human cognitive performance and the mechanical speed of a horse-type structure are, implies that the "short term" for getting results from "breeding humans" would still be quite long.

I'm not sure either. I was more trying to qualify the other poster's statement. It's food for thought, though.




And as for genetic diversity, what I'm proposing wouldn't stifle genetic diversity, because I'm not suggesting in this policy hypothetical that nobody else in our population of 6 billion have children.

That's uncertain, and very dependent on project implementation. For example, if the strategy is to identify and recruit peak performers, it's not unreasonable to propose that they may become unavailable to the general population. In this case, the effect would actually be to draw the good genes out of the population.

The more efficient the implementation of the project, the more complete will be the hoovering of good genes from the wild, which will have noticeable effects in proportion to the scale of the project.
 
Just as people share similarities in physical features with their closest relatives, so too do they share more genes and DNA and the characteristics these influence. Whether you call it race, or nationality, or the founder effect, it is useful in genetic linkage and genetic counseling to know something about one's heritage. Just as the way we look can be largely influenced by genetics, so, too, can the way we think, our assorted talents, skills, abilities. Clearly this is more true in some people than others. Beethoven may have been born with a particularly abundant or plastic set of neurons that enabled his musical abilities...but had no one thought to give him access to a piano, he would not have been the Beethoven we know. The piano is environmental. But if we gave all kids pianos, we'd produce few prodigies like Beethoven. Kids with down syndrome look share physical and mental features caused entirely by a genetic duplication of the 21st chromosome. They score more similarly to eachother than to their non-affected siblings on growth, intelligence, skills attained, health, etc. Clearly, genes have a major impact on these results. Poor nutrition, head injuries, an unenriched environment or non responsive parenting can lead to similar test scores--in which case the environment is the greatest risk factor.

I would hope that we don't get so politically correct that we can't notice tendencies amongst groups or comment upon them. Asians tend to have straighter blacker coarser hair...and they also average higher test scores in math than those who don't identify themselves as Asian. Children born in Africa to native Africans tend to have dark skin and to walk a month earlier than children whose parents don't identify them as African. Men tend to be taller than women and are also more prone to committing acts of violence. Women tend to have larger breasts than men, and also tend to be more trusting or credulous (or gullible) than men. Yes, these are fuzzy categories...and just as there is a lot of overlap and examples that do not fit the norm--it doesn't mean that categorizing people isn't useful at times. And if DNA can cause people to look different on the outside...it can cause internal differences too from the breeding populations that produced the physical differences. If it's okay to say that small dogs are more likely to shake and be yippy and shepherd looking dogs are often easier to train for police work or agility training...then it should be okay to comment on tendencies involving fuzzy but recognizeable groups of people.

Americans tend to have a pretty good mix of both African and Asian genes (Asian from native Americans...African from Africa and the migration up towards Europe--the Asians came over first from the west and were latter dominated by the Europeans from the Northeast). You can see this mixing in blood types, but you can also see it when you observe differences between those who identify themselves as "black" and those who identify themselves as "Asian"-- wherever the scores vary--be it penis size or pattern recognition, Americans tend to fall in the middle.

So I weigh in on the side that fuzzy categories can be useful tools for understanding, but I would hate to see it used for divisiveness or prejudice. We are talking about tendencies amongst groups, and it cannot be applied to an individual and, as skeptical thinkers, I think we'd want to be especially careful about "confirmation bias". But I hope we don't let political correctness keep us from voicing observations and data about tendencies amongst groups of people.
 
Well if by "ability" you mean intelligence then the problem is still the overwhelming difficulty in measuring intelligence so I don't see how there could be legitimate studies that weren't extremely speculative.

Steven

No. By "ability" I mean a much larger subset of traits than just intelligence. And much smaller subsets than general intelligence such as types of intelligence, or component traits that may contribute to intelligence.
 
That's uncertain, and very dependent on project implementation. For example, if the strategy is to identify and recruit peak performers, it's not unreasonable to propose that they may become unavailable to the general population. In this case, the effect would actually be to draw the good genes out of the population.

The more efficient the implementation of the project, the more complete will be the hoovering of good genes from the wild, which will have noticeable effects in proportion to the scale of the project.

Right, so there would be a tension between the two goals of maximizing Einstein-Curies Juniors, and maximizing genetic combination diversity for 1/2 Einstein Juniors and 1/2 Curie Juniors. Doesn't mean we would have to go all one way or all the other way in the policy hypothetical.
 
Just as people share similarities in physical features with their closest relatives, so too do they share more genes and DNA and the characteristics these influence. Whether you call it race, or nationality, or the founder effect, it is useful in genetic linkage and genetic counseling to know something about one's heritage. Just as the way we look can be largely influenced by genetics, so, too, can the way we think, our assorted talents, skills, abilities. Clearly this is more true in some people than others. Beethoven may have been born with a particularly abundant or plastic set of neurons that enabled his musical abilities...but had no one thought to give him access to a piano, he would not have been the Beethoven we know. The piano is environmental. But if we gave all kids pianos, we'd produce few prodigies like Beethoven. Kids with down syndrome look share physical and mental features caused entirely by a genetic duplication of the 21st chromosome. They score more similarly to eachother than to their non-affected siblings on growth, intelligence, skills attained, health, etc. Clearly, genes have a major impact on these results. Poor nutrition, head injuries, an unenriched environment or non responsive parenting can lead to similar test scores--in which case the environment is the greatest risk factor.

I would hope that we don't get so politically correct that we can't notice tendencies amongst groups or comment upon them. Asians tend to have straighter blacker coarser hair...and they also average higher test scores in math than those who don't identify themselves as Asian. Children born in Africa to native Africans tend to have dark skin and to walk a month earlier than children whose parents don't identify them as African. Men tend to be taller than women and are also more prone to committing acts of violence. Women tend to have larger breasts than men, and also tend to be more trusting or credulous (or gullible) than men. Yes, these are fuzzy categories...and just as there is a lot of overlap and examples that do not fit the norm--it doesn't mean that categorizing people isn't useful at times. And if DNA can cause people to look different on the outside...it can cause internal differences too from the breeding populations that produced the physical differences. If it's okay to say that small dogs are more likely to shake and be yippy and shepherd looking dogs are often easier to train for police work or agility training...then it should be okay to comment on tendencies involving fuzzy but recognizeable groups of people.

Americans tend to have a pretty good mix of both African and Asian genes (Asian from native Americans...African from Africa and the migration up towards Europe--the Asians came over first from the west and were latter dominated by the Europeans from the Northeast). You can see this mixing in blood types, but you can also see it when you observe differences between those who identify themselves as "black" and those who identify themselves as "Asian"-- wherever the scores vary--be it penis size or pattern recognition, Americans tend to fall in the middle.

So I weigh in on the side that fuzzy categories can be useful tools for understanding, but I would hate to see it used for divisiveness or prejudice. We are talking about tendencies amongst groups, and it cannot be applied to an individual and, as skeptical thinkers, I think we'd want to be especially careful about "confirmation bias". But I hope we don't let political correctness keep us from voicing observations and data about tendencies amongst groups of people.

Wow, I think some moral highground lovin' thread participants will salivate over the red meat your post provides them.:D :D :D

Although I agree in principle with your post that abilities (including heritable abilities) likely vary between human genetic subpopulations, I'm not sure I can sign on to some of the ability difference examples you provide using enormous subpopulations.

For example, it seems to me likely in America that asian outperformance over people of european/white descent on standardized math tests has more to do with immigration patterns and B-1 visas than the ability difference between asians in asia and europeans in europe. Sort of like how if most of the people of african descent in america were the children of engineers that immigrated in the '60s from Africa to America on B-1 visas, african americans would probably outperform european americans on math exams, too. However, perhaps I'm wrong. I have read that asians in asia do outperform, on average, europeans in europe on IQ exams. But that's very counterintuitive to me, given the huge illiteracy rates in South Asia and the tremendous per capita gdp differentials between most of asia and most of Europe.

Anyways, as I said earlier, some thread members are going to have a field day feeling morally heroic "disproving" the red meat you've provided them.:D
 
Wow, I think some moral highground lovin' thread participants will salivate over the red meat your post provides them.:D :D :D

Although I agree in principle with your post that abilities (including heritable abilities) likely vary between human genetic subpopulations, I'm not sure I can sign on to some of the ability difference examples you provide using enormous subpopulations.

For example, it seems to me likely in America that asian outperformance over people of european/white descent on standardized math tests has more to do with immigration patterns and B-1 visas than the ability difference between asians in asia and europeans in europe. Sort of like how if most of the people of african descent in america were the children of engineers that immigrated in the '60s from Africa to America on B-1 visas, african americans would probably outperform european americans on math exams, too. However, perhaps I'm wrong. I have read that asians in asia do outperform, on average, europeans in europe on IQ exams. But that's very counterintuitive to me, given the huge illiteracy rates in South Asia and the tremendous per capita gdp differentials between most of asia and most of Europe.

Anyways, as I said earlier, some thread members are going to have a field day feeling morally heroic "disproving" the red meat you've provided them.:D

Dave, once again you're showing your immaturity. The only one who's really salivated at the idea of characterizing anyone as being politically motivated in this debate has been you, from the very beginning in fact. Red meat indeed.

Steven
 
Dave, once again you're showing your immaturity. The only one who's really salivated at the idea of characterizing anyone as being politically motivated in this debate has been you, from the very beginning in fact. Red meat indeed.

Steven

I'm happy to be proven wrong wrong in my prediction about likely response patterns to articulett.:)
 
However, I think the above description is a misrepresentation of the Bell Curve's claim. They are claiming that blacks are less intelligent because they score lower on IQ tests. They make a good case for the test's validity.

I'd be interested to see what part of the book you consider to be "a good case for the test's validity." As I recall, their entire discussion of the question of IQ test validity was a single-sentence appeal to unnamed authority.
 
I'd be interested to see what part of the book you consider to be "a good case for the test's validity." As I recall, their entire discussion of the question of IQ test validity was a single-sentence appeal to unnamed authority.

No, they cite the peer-reviewed work that has been used to develop the test over the years that shows internal validity (subjects get close to the same score when they re-take the test), and secondly, they make reference to the test's external validity: the test is intended to measure "something" that has other indicators, such as general problem-solving abilities and its consequences to occupation, academic achievement, and personal goal-achievement. Test scores are positively correlated with these things.

Where they make an inappropriate leap of faith is to conclude that the persistence of IQ gap between demographics is proof that it's genetic. That's a non sequitir.
 
secondly, they make reference to the test's external validity: the test is intended to measure "something" that has other indicators, such as general problem-solving abilities and its consequences to occupation, academic achievement, and personal goal-achievement. Test scores are positively correlated with these things.

Goodness. So blacks are dumb because they're poor, and they're poor because they're dumb?

I thought you were arguing against that interpretation. Now you're repeating it.
 
Goodness. So blacks are dumb because they're poor, and they're poor because they're dumb?

I thought you were arguing against that interpretation. Now you're repeating it.

What's your take on the larger issue? I know it's fun to be The One that heroically disproves elements of "whites are genetically smarter than blacks" but you have (in my opinion) a substantial intellect that I would like to see weigh in on the larger issues and topics discussed in this thread.
 
If it's okay to say that small dogs are more likely to shake and be yippy and shepherd looking dogs are often easier to train for police work or agility training...then it should be okay to comment on tendencies involving fuzzy but recognizeable groups of people.

I only have time for a brief response as soon I'll have to feed my son lunch before I take him for his check-up, but I do plan to go into more detail at a later time.

I agree completely that phylogenetic study of the human species (all species for that matter) is very useful and necessary. Science has no place for politics. Unfortunately human nature introduces biases into science but that is what to self correcting protocols of science are in place for. For the record, I myself am strongly opposed to the restriction of any thought or inquiry simply because someone finds that idea offensive. Many creationists find all aspects of evolutionary theory to be highly offensive and would love to see laws passed restricting its free discussion.

I've only highlighted the one sentence from your post purely for reasons of brevity and I'll address more of my agreement and disagreement later. But this sentence drew my attention for the following reason. The two extremes of dog breeds you mention are far more phylogenetically different that even the most remotely related humans. As an analogy for human genetic variation would we not be better served to use as an example the wolf? The comparison of wolf populations from different regions of North America would surely be a better analogy for human variation that the artificially selected varieties of domestic dogs.

Steven
 
What's your take on the larger issue?

The larger issue? IQ tests are a load of tosh, precisely because we don't have a useful definition of "intelligence" that doesn't hinge on circular assumptions such as the ones under discussion. And for a more technical reason as well -- Murray and Herrnstein justified the "reification" of Spearman's 'g' as a cognitive phenomenon with another single-sentence appeal to unnamed authority. No competent statistician today would make such a mistake....

In broader terms, "race" is not a load of tosh, but it's a slender thread that won't take the weight most people want to put on it. The statement that "race is meaningless" (or more technically, "race is genetically uninformative") is technically untrue.

For example, the unconditional probability of a person having type B blood is substantially different than the conditional probability of a person having type B blood given that that person would be identified as 'black'. The probability of a person having blonde hair is different than the probability of them having blonde hair given that they would be identified as 'Asian'. Given the close relationship between "African" and "black," and the fact that something like 95% of the genetic variation in humanity occurs only among native African populations, most of the variant alleles occur only in "black" people.

However, this doesn't mean much in practical terms precisely because the consequences of having type B blood are so few. And the human tendency to group by a few socially-selected and easily visible features means that much of the "lay" categorization is wrong (e.g. Australians and Tasmanians are/were an outgroup from the rest of humanity, even if they look like sub-Saharan Africans to your average Georgia sheriff).
 
I'm happy to be proven wrong wrong in my prediction about likely response patterns to articulett.:)

Why do I think your predicted response patterns tend to vindicate your claim that PC thugs are trying to impede the progress of science? Are there people who would like to restrict speech on the basis of their political positions? Absolutely! These people inhabit both ends of the political spectrum and I don't care for their positions. That includes the ones who are on the same side of the issue as me. If they do it for the wrong reasons (we're talking about scientific discourse here, not personal beliefs) then I find them to be no more informed than someone who opposes the teaching of intelligent design in biology classes because of a bad experience with religion or a blind faith in a perceived authority.

The pattern that I've seen developing is that anyone who disagrees with you is accused of having a political bias. You haven't offered any evidence to support this position. I also note that while I and others have pointed to scientific studies to support our positions you have yet to do the same for your position.

Steven
 
The larger issue? IQ tests are a load of tosh, precisely because we don't have a useful definition of "intelligence" that doesn't hinge on circular assumptions such as the ones under discussion. And for a more technical reason as well -- Murray and Herrnstein justified the "reification" of Spearman's 'g' as a cognitive phenomenon with another single-sentence appeal to unnamed authority. No competent statistician today would make such a mistake....

In broader terms, "race" is not a load of tosh, but it's a slender thread that won't take the weight most people want to put on it. The statement that "race is meaningless" (or more technically, "race is genetically uninformative") is technically untrue.

For example, the unconditional probability of a person having type B blood is substantially different than the conditional probability of a person having type B blood given that that person would be identified as 'black'. The probability of a person having blonde hair is different than the probability of them having blonde hair given that they would be identified as 'Asian'. Given the close relationship between "African" and "black," and the fact that something like 95% of the genetic variation in humanity occurs only among native African populations, most of the variant alleles occur only in "black" people.

However, this doesn't mean much in practical terms precisely because the consequences of having type B blood are so few. And the human tendency to group by a few socially-selected and easily visible features means that much of the "lay" categorization is wrong (e.g. Australians and Tasmanians are/were an outgroup from the rest of humanity, even if they look like sub-Saharan Africans to your average Georgia sheriff).

Drkitten,
How about abilities narrower and/or different than "intelligence". Types of memory, types of pattern recognition, various types of response speeds, etc. (etc. encompasses other types of ability I haven't mentioned and probably haven't thought of, but a thread participant may have information about).

Also (and this is open to thread participants) what work have scientists done in sorting humans into genetically different populations (presumably on the geographic migration and then remixing timeline) beyond the main scientific categories (call it "scientific race" or whatever you like)?

How many potential subcategories are there? What are the main branches, down to the smalles level of differentiation (in groups larger than individual humans, of course)?
 
The pattern that I've seen developing is that anyone who disagrees with you is accused of having a political bias. You haven't offered any evidence to support this position. I also note that while I and others have pointed to scientific studies to support our positions you have yet to do the same for your position.

Steven


No. I think you've been caught red-handed foil-seeking just now. People who jump on opportunities to be The One who argues "whites aren't genetically smarter than blacks" aren't disagreeing with me. Where, in this thread or elsewhere, did I claim that was my position?
 
How about abilities narrower and/or different than "intelligence". Types of memory, types of pattern recognition, various types of response speeds, etc. (etc. encompasses other types of ability I haven't mentioned and probably haven't thought of, but a thread participant may have information about).

At the level at which this thread is pitched, there's very little data available, and almost no one's working on it. Partly, this can be attributed to way the well has been very effectively poisoned by the Bell Curve, I think. No competent scholar wants to be associated with Murray and Herrnstein's theories, in the same way that no competent historian wants to co-author with David Irving.

A more significant factor is the problem of definition. There's a lot that has been done about the genetic basis of cognition -- for example, the FOXP2 gene is known to have substantial effects on human language (you can thank Myra Gopnik for much of this research) as well as other physiological aspects.

But notice the careful definitions involved here. I'm not talking about "race," I'm talking about FOXP2 -- and I'm not talking about "IQ," but about "language," (and I could get even more specific, in terms of tongue articulation as well as specifical grammatical disfunctionalities). There's no need for me (or for Gopnik) to dig into the great mass of sewage that is "IQ" to address this -- and every reason for her not to.


Also (and this is open to thread participants) what work have scientists done in sorting humans into genetically different populations (presumably on the geographic migration and then remixing timeline) beyond the main scientific categories (call it "scientific race" or whatever you like)?

How many potential subcategories are there? What are the main branches, down to the smalles level of differentiation (in groups larger than individual humans, of course)?

You've answered your own question about the smallest level of differentiation. :)

There's been quite a bit of work done -- here's one site that you might find interesting, summarizing the state of discussion as of a year and a half ago. As you might expect, the main conclusion of the researchers working in this area is that "more funding is required."
 

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