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Odd linguistics argument

We cannot. Nor can we be certain that faeries are not the true reason why bread rises.

Well, we can be reasonably certain they don't because we have a better explanation in place. It doesn't seem so with the language thing. Is the idea that our ancestors migrating out of Africa had some sort of rudimentary language- including concepts for the top few of the "basic colours"- so far fetched as to be in the same plausibility class as bread-fairies?

On the other hand, we have extreme difficulty in reconstructing anything about language -- even the existence of it -- about 10,000 years ago. A few linguistics, most notably Ruhlen and Greenberg, have seriously proposed some reconstructions of a so-called proto-World language, but very few mainstream linguists take these reconstructions seriously, mostly due to a variety of methodological problems in their reconstruction.

So aside from the fact that the proto-World hypothesis is itself rather questionable,

It wouldn't need to encompass the whole world, would it? Just the first couple dozen groups of humans.

ETA: After writing this, looked up Ruhlen and Greenberg and I'd say "questionable" is kind given what I saw. But their efforts aside, given the evidence from biology and such that we did all come from a common ancestry, isn't a common basis for language the most parsiminous explanation for the colour thing?

it then raises the issue of why there's no evident pattern in the distribution of color word schema. In particular, given the isolation of the various continents, we would expect to see characteristically "American" color word patterns, "Australian," and "Eurasian-African." We don't.

Why would we? We don't see different patterns of numbers of legs, do we? Let's say that we have Bob, Doug, and Milo, and they all speak Proto. Proto has a word for Black (Ugh), a word for White (Guh), and a word for Red (Hug). Bob's ancestors migrate to Asia, Doug's to Europe, and Milo's stay in Africa. Along the way, Bob's decendents have started pronouncing the word Ugh so it sounds like "Uck", while Doug's say it like "Mug" and Milo's "Og." They are similar changes that happen to "Guh" and "Hug." This does not change the order in which the colours were named.

(As it happens, we also know that not all languages have a common genetic basis, because we've seen instances of language being created ex nihilo. NIcaraguan Sign Langauge is probably the best known and best documented. But these are isolated enough cases that the question as phrased is still meaningful.)

Wikipedia: "(in Nicaragua) Deaf people were largely isolated from each other, and used simple home sign systems and gesture ('mimicas') to communicate with their families and friends."

That doesn't sound ex nihilo to me. If the idea of a separate word for "Black" is in the language of the parent of one of those deaf children, wouldn't it be expected that it may be a concept they pass on the the child, no mater what new "word" (or in this case "gesture") they invent to convey it? It wouldn't matter if the new word spread through the deaf population or was supplanted by a different word created via the same process in another individual- the concept itself is generated from an existing language.

Have the deaf children in their invented language come up with concepts unique to them?
 
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My question is do we know that language did not exist prior to humans? Anyway concerning the original post. I think it is obvious that language affects our perception of the world and our ability to understand it because language is necessary for extended learning. The argument about the Inuit as I recall it is that they can discriminate using characteristics of snow if the snow is fallen over ice (ocean) or over land and other useful geographically related concepts necessary for survival in a land of ice and snow when your typical American would think it is all "snow". The meaning of the words is lost in translation since we have no use for snow fallen over ice vs snow fallen over land etc. Of course I may be wrong but that is how I remember it. If you look at colors, I believe it has been shown via studies that people with less words for different colors are not able to discriminate between different colors as well as those with more words for different colors. Of course I might be wrong about that too, it has been a while since I studied linguistics. It seems obvious to me that language would your perceptions and mental constructs.
 
Russian has no word for "privacy,"
According to Babel Fish it's уединение

But not reading or understanding cyrillic I couldn't possibly comment on whether it's a good translation

edited to add....

I translated it back, it comes out as "the solitude" which is of course an entirely different animal. So it was a shoddy translation.
 
Or that I misremembered "orange" as being treated a basic color word in English; if Berlin and Kay didn't treat it as "basic," then English has only ten basic terms, and other languages have a non-descriptive BCT term for that color that we don't have in English.

I looked at OED's etymology page and it contains a reference to the fruit and contains a derivation chain going back to Dravidian.

In Finnish we have 'oranssi' that is a loan word coming from Swedish or German. We have it as a basic color term since the word arrived here way before the fruit (and the name of the fruit was loaned from German 'Apfelsine').
 
Well, we can be reasonably certain they don't because we have a better explanation in place. It doesn't seem so with the language thing. Is the idea that our ancestors migrating out of Africa had some sort of rudimentary language- including concepts for the top few of the "basic colours"- so far fetched as to be in the same plausibility class as bread-fairies?

Depending upon which ancestors we are believing wandered out of Africa, possibly. The usual "out of Africa" hypotheses are not about humans, but about hominid ancestors that do not appear to have either the cranial capacity or vocal capacity for human-like speech. My understanding is that the jury is still out on whether or not Neanderthals had the capcity for human-like speech, and those are considered to be a subspecies of Homo sapiens.

At some level, of course, you are right. At some point in time the entire population of (the appropriate subgroup of) H. sapiens was presumably small and geographically isolated in one point, and at that point, if they had a language of their own, it was presumably shared among the entire subgroup. But there's literally no evidence that we can point to that suggests that language was this early an innovation; many anthropologists believe that language was a later development that happened in many different areas independently.



But their efforts aside, given the evidence from biology and such that we did all come from a common ancestry, isn't a common basis for language the most parsiminous explanation for the colour thing?

No, it isn't. See below.

Why would we? We don't see different patterns of numbers of legs, do we? Let's say that we have Bob, Doug, and Milo, and they all speak Proto. Proto has a word for Black (Ugh), a word for White (Guh), and a word for Red (Hug). Bob's ancestors migrate to Asia, Doug's to Europe, and Milo's stay in Africa. Along the way, Bob's decendents have started pronouncing the word Ugh so it sounds like "Uck", while Doug's say it like "Mug" and Milo's "Og." They are similar changes that happen to "Guh" and "Hug." This does not change the order in which the colours were named.

The reason we don't see different patterns of numbers of legs is because we don't see different numbers of legs (by and large). When we do see genetic variation from the "typical" (e.g., polydactyly), it usually comes in genetic groups. What we rarely see is multiple independent reinventions of genetic variation.

So let's look in more detail about our hypothetical distribution of languages. The problem with your common-ancestry hypothesis is that it doesn't account for the uniform hierarchy of color names. Specifically, some inquiring mind among Milo's descendents discovered a new color, almost certainly green or yellow. Similarly, some inquiring mind among Doug's decendent's also discovered a new color -- also green or yellow.

Why should Milo's children independently discover the same color as Doug's? Why didn't Doug's children discover "grey" or "blue" or "brown" instead? And why should Bob's children also discover green and not grey or brown?

Furthermore, we would expect to see that the children of Milo's children would inherit their language from one of Milo's children -- which means that the descendents of the child who invented green would have and use a word for green, while the children of children who didn't know about green wouldn't.

In genetics, where descent-with-modification is about the only explanation for change that we have, scientists have no problem patching all the various groups together into substructures and family relationships. Similarly, in recent historical linguistics, we again have no problem putting the substructures together. Dutch, for example, is closer to English than it is to German; German is closer to English than to Danish. We're currently working out a theory of how various Indo-European groups relate -- e.g. whether Danish is closer to French, Greek, or Russian. If the color hierarchy really had been related to descent-with-modification, we should see inheritance patterns in the colors at extremely gross levels. We don't.

Wikipedia: "(in Nicaragua) Deaf people were largely isolated from each other, and used simple home sign systems and gesture ('mimicas') to communicate with their families and friends."

That doesn't sound ex nihilo to me.

There's a difference -- practically a watershed -- between "sign systems and gesture" and "language." The "sign systems" used by NIcaraguan deafs weren't language, and the deaf children were barely above the cognitive level of "wolf children" for exactly that reason.

In particular, the idea of "concepts that the parents pass on to their children" presumes a level of communicative -- and cognitive -- ability that was simply not present. One of the scariest films that I've seen involved pictures from some of these children (and now adults) in appropriate support contexts.

You could tell just by watching the films who the ones who got early intervention were. Even without any knowledge of what they were "saying," they were the ones who were obviously signing in language, not in gesture systems. They had fluency, they had syntax, they had body language going. The ones who had not received early intervention were stumbling through from sign to sign to sign in a kind of "you tarzan me jane" pidgin at best.

Reading the transcripts just made it that more obvious.

The point, of course, is that the parents didn't "teach" their children much if anything. The language more or less spontaneously appeared when sufficiently young children were put
together in a communicative context.
 
My question is do we know that language did not exist prior to humans?

No, but we've got lot of evidence that if it did, it was both well-hidden and entirely unlike what we consider "language" to be today.

If you look at colors, I believe it has been shown via studies that people with less words for different colors are not able to discriminate between different colors as well as those with more words for different colors.

No, that's exactly what Berlin and Kay tested for and did not find.
 
According to Babel Fish it's уединение

But not reading or understanding cyrillic I couldn't possibly comment on whether it's a good translation

edited to add....

I translated it back, it comes out as "the solitude" which is of course an entirely different animal. So it was a shoddy translation.

Its meaning is closer to "going to somewhere where there are no other people." Which is one requirement for privacy, but Russian really has no word for the concept of "the right not to have other people intrude upon what you consider personal."

Never trust Babel Fish :D
 
Depending upon which ancestors we are believing wandered out of Africa, possibly. The usual "out of Africa" hypotheses are not about humans, but about hominid ancestors that do not appear to have either the cranial capacity or vocal capacity for human-like speech. My understanding is that the jury is still out on whether or not Neanderthals had the capcity for human-like speech, and those are considered to be a subspecies of Homo sapiens.

My mistake, then. I thought we were cro-mags when that happened.

At some level, of course, you are right. At some point in time the entire population of (the appropriate subgroup of) H. sapiens was presumably small and geographically isolated in one point, and at that point, if they had a language of their own, it was presumably shared among the entire subgroup. But there's literally no evidence that we can point to that suggests that language was this early an innovation; many anthropologists believe that language was a later development that happened in many different areas independently.

How much later?


The reason we don't see different patterns of numbers of legs is because we don't see different numbers of legs (by and large). When we do see genetic variation from the "typical" (e.g., polydactyly), it usually comes in genetic groups. What we rarely see is multiple independent reinventions of genetic variation.

What about wings? Or webbed feet?

So let's look in more detail about our hypothetical distribution of languages. The problem with your common-ancestry hypothesis is that it doesn't account for the uniform hierarchy of color names. Specifically, some inquiring mind among Milo's descendents discovered a new color, almost certainly green or yellow. Similarly, some inquiring mind among Doug's decendent's also discovered a new color -- also green or yellow.

Why should Milo's children independently discover the same color as Doug's? Why didn't Doug's children discover "grey" or "blue" or "brown" instead? And why should Bob's children also discover green and not grey or brown?

I guess my next question is; why shouldn't they? Is there compelling evidence that this couldn't just have happened by chance?

Furthermore, we would expect to see that the children of Milo's children would inherit their language from one of Milo's children -- which means that the descendents of the child who invented green would have and use a word for green, while the children of children who didn't know about green wouldn't.

In genetics, where descent-with-modification is about the only explanation for change that we have, scientists have no problem patching all the various groups together into substructures and family relationships. Similarly, in recent historical linguistics, we again have no problem putting the substructures together. Dutch, for example, is closer to English than it is to German; German is closer to English than to Danish. We're currently working out a theory of how various Indo-European groups relate -- e.g. whether Danish is closer to French, Greek, or Russian. If the color hierarchy really had been related to descent-with-modification, we should see inheritance patterns in the colors at extremely gross levels. We don't.

Do you have a copy of the studies I can read? the only on-line version I found was PS and I cannot read it here at work.

There's a difference -- practically a watershed -- between "sign systems and gesture" and "language." The "sign systems" used by NIcaraguan deafs weren't language, and the deaf children were barely above the cognitive level of "wolf children" for exactly that reason.

I guess it would be useful at this point to ask what the appropriate definition of language is. I suspect mine may be a bit too broad here.

In particular, the idea of "concepts that the parents pass on to their children" presumes a level of communicative -- and cognitive -- ability that was simply not present. One of the scariest films that I've seen involved pictures from some of these children (and now adults) in appropriate support contexts.

You could tell just by watching the films who the ones who got early intervention were. Even without any knowledge of what they were "saying," they were the ones who were obviously signing in language, not in gesture systems. They had fluency, they had syntax, they had body language going. The ones who had not received early intervention were stumbling through from sign to sign to sign in a kind of "you tarzan me jane" pidgin at best.

Reading the transcripts just made it that more obvious.

The point, of course, is that the parents didn't "teach" their children much if anything. The language more or less spontaneously appeared when sufficiently young children were put
together in a communicative context.

Are these films something available for public consumption?
 
I guess my next question is; why shouldn't they? Is there compelling evidence that this couldn't just have happened by chance?

The statistics are the biggy. Of the eleven-factorial possible subsets of color words that languages could use, fewer than a hundred are actually attested.

Similarly, there are eleven-choose-four possible four-word sets of basic color terms that languages could use. Of those possibilities, we see exactly two, across all the (studied) languages in the world with only four basic color terms. Of the eleven-choose-five possiblities for five word subsets, we see exactly one -- and it's the same one we would get by taking the union of the four word subsets.

The languages in which this pattern are found are far too distinct, areally and genetically, for it to be a "simple" matter of descent with modification, and the odds against that degree of parallel evolution by chance are astronomical. Ergo, it's not a coincidence, and it's tied into cognitive aspects of language and color perceptions somehow.



Do you have a copy of the studies I can read? the only on-line version I found was PS and I cannot read it here at work.

Not on-line, I'm afraid. My copies are all in the form of dead trees.


I guess it would be useful at this point to ask what the appropriate definition of language is. I suspect mine may be a bit too broad here.

Well, the "I know it when I see it" definition works surprisingly well for people with experience in linguistics. In general, a "language" has a number of properties that are not commonly found in mere "sign systems."

* Arbitrary relationship between the signifier and signified -- you don't, for example, use two fingers in a walking-like motion to signify "walking."
* Productive lexicology and morphology -- you can make up new words on the fly and have them be understood. As an English example : you've probably never seen the word "beanbaker" before. However, if I told you I worked as a beanbaker at a local coffee shop, you would probably have a good idea what my job was.
* Recursive syntax : it's possible to structure thoughts of arbitrary complexity that refer to other thoughts of arbitrary complexity. This is the House-that-Jack-built effect. "This is the maiden all forlorn, who milked the cow with the crumpled horn, who kicked the dog, who chased the cat, who killed the rat, [...]"



Are these films something available for public consumption?

Dunno. I saw them at a conference a few years back, so they're probably owned by some researcher or other.
 
The statistics are the biggy. Of the eleven-factorial possible subsets of color words that languages could use, fewer than a hundred are actually attested.

Similarly, there are eleven-choose-four possible four-word sets of basic color terms that languages could use. Of those possibilities, we see exactly two, across all the (studied) languages in the world with only four basic color terms. Of the eleven-choose-five possiblities for five word subsets, we see exactly one -- and it's the same one we would get by taking the union of the four word subsets.

The languages in which this pattern are found are far too distinct, areally and genetically, for it to be a "simple" matter of descent with modification, and the odds against that degree of parallel evolution by chance are astronomical. Ergo, it's not a coincidence, and it's tied into cognitive aspects of language and color perceptions somehow.

I'll just pretend I know what you are saying in those first two paragraph (having no knowledge of statistics), but I think I got the gist of it.

If it is not genetic, and not coincidence, the next simplest explanation would have to be the common structure and function of the brain and the eye, and the essentially similar environments in which human dwell, right?

Not on-line, I'm afraid. My copies are all in the form of dead trees.

That's all right- if they're all like that last bit, I doubt I'd get much out of them anyway.


Well, the "I know it when I see it" definition works surprisingly well for people with experience in linguistics. In general, a "language" has a number of properties that are not commonly found in mere "sign systems."

* Arbitrary relationship between the signifier and signified -- you don't, for example, use two fingers in a walking-like motion to signify "walking."
* Productive lexicology and morphology -- you can make up new words on the fly and have them be understood. As an English example : you've probably never seen the word "beanbaker" before. However, if I told you I worked as a beanbaker at a local coffee shop, you would probably have a good idea what my job was.
* Recursive syntax : it's possible to structure thoughts of arbitrary complexity that refer to other thoughts of arbitrary complexity. This is the House-that-Jack-built effect. "This is the maiden all forlorn, who milked the cow with the crumpled horn, who kicked the dog, who chased the cat, who killed the rat, [...]"

So the second bullet point would be why Maths is not a language (despite what I've been telling my daughter), right?

Dunno. I saw them at a conference a few years back, so they're probably owned by some researcher or other.

Nuts.
 
No, but we've got lot of evidence that if it did, it was both well-hidden and entirely unlike what we consider "language" to be today.
What lot of evidence would that be?
No, that's exactly what Berlin and Kay tested for and did not find.
I read an online page that said Berlin and Kay's study was small and limited in scope and so not conclusive. Unless there was another study?
http://www.icsi.berkeley.edu/wcs/study.html
 
I'll just pretend I know what you are saying in those first two paragraph (having no knowledge of statistics), but I think I got the gist of it.

If it is not genetic, and not coincidence, the next simplest explanation would have to be the common structure and function of the brain and the eye, and the essentially similar environments in which human dwell, right?

That's probably where most of the smart money is betting today, yes. The universals of color naming reflect some underlying cognitive constraints that are hardwired into the mind/brain system.

Let me unpack what I was saying to see if it makes a little bit more sense. Let's take a typical language with only four basic color terms. If we were just pulling color terms randomly out of a hat, we could expect to pick any four colors out of the eleven. It might be black-white-red-yellow, or it might be pink-brown-blue-black. In general, we could pick any of eleven possibilities for our "first" term, any of ten for our "second," any of nine for our "third", and any of eight for out "fourth" term. Doing the math, this means that there are 7920 possible color sets.

Now, that's not quite true, because the order in which I pick the terms doesn't matter. Black-brown-blue-pink is the same as pink-brown-blue-black. So I need to divide by the number of ways to order four items (24), which still leaves us with 330 possible ways for languages to use four basic color terms.

Of those 330 possible ways, we see exactly two.

That's like my playing a roulette wheel with three hundred and thirty numbers on it, and the only numbers that ever come up are (let's say) 15 and double-zero. Is that a fair wheel? I don't think so.

Similarly, there are 462 different ways to choose five basic color terms. Of those ways, we see one. That's like shuffling and dealing from a nine-deck stack of cards, and getting the ace of spades every time. Not just any ace of spades, but the same ace of spades from the same deck of the nine. A fair deal? I don't think so.


So the second bullet point would be why Maths is not a language (despite what I've been telling my daughter), right?

One of the reasons, yes. But math comes very very close to being a language (especially at the upper levels), so if you think about it in as being a language, it's likely to help you learn it better. So you may have been lying to your daughter -- but you did it in a good cause and I support you for it. :)
 
What lot of evidence would that be?

To start with, pre-humans typically lack the (physical) articulatory capacity necessary for human language, and as far as we can tell from the fossilized skulls, they lacked the necessary neurological development in the "typical" language areas (e.g. Broca's and Werneke's).
 
That's probably where most of the smart money is betting today, yes. The universals of color naming reflect some underlying cognitive constraints that are hardwired into the mind/brain system.

Wouldn't it be mostly environmental, rather than a cognitive constraint? I mean, it's pretty easy to see why black, white, red, yellow, green would get separate names first, right? But would we expect the same thing in a population that was uniformly red/green colourblind? Or, say, a Morelock population?

Let me unpack what I was saying to see if it makes a little bit more sense. Let's take a typical language with only four basic color terms. If we were just pulling color terms randomly out of a hat, we could expect to pick any four colors out of the eleven. It might be black-white-red-yellow, or it might be pink-brown-blue-black. In general, we could pick any of eleven possibilities for our "first" term, any of ten for our "second," any of nine for our "third", and any of eight for out "fourth" term. Doing the math, this means that there are 7920 possible color sets.

Now, that's not quite true, because the order in which I pick the terms doesn't matter. Black-brown-blue-pink is the same as pink-brown-blue-black. So I need to divide by the number of ways to order four items (24), which still leaves us with 330 possible ways for languages to use four basic color terms.

Of those 330 possible ways, we see exactly two.

That's like my playing a roulette wheel with three hundred and thirty numbers on it, and the only numbers that ever come up are (let's say) 15 and double-zero. Is that a fair wheel? I don't think so.

Similarly, there are 462 different ways to choose five basic color terms. Of those ways, we see one. That's like shuffling and dealing from a nine-deck stack of cards, and getting the ace of spades every time. Not just any ace of spades, but the same ace of spades from the same deck of the nine. A fair deal? I don't think so.

That's what I sort of foggily understood, yeah.


One of the reasons, yes. But math comes very very close to being a language (especially at the upper levels), so if you think about it in as being a language, it's likely to help you learn it better. So you may have been lying to your daughter -- but you did it in a good cause and I support you for it. :)

Well, it got her to stop chanting the old mantra "I'm a reader, I'm just not good at math" and learn her multiplication tables. :)
 
This is by far one of the most interesting discussions I have ever read here.

Ok, so humans have certain ways of grouping colors that some people think may be related to the ways our brains and eyes work and have evolved, right? So going back to the OP. I don't have time to read the entire linked thread, but is the basic contention that people with a substantially different language experience the world differently? Or what? I'm finding the discussion of the science of language very interesting, but am having a hard time figuring out what the OP's quote is getting at. Can someone illuminate this?

PS--I'm reminded of the auditors from Terry Pratchett's Thief of Time who couldn't understand why there are infinite shades of color, but not infinite human names. I actually find the whole auditor business really interesting. That Pratchett guy is quite clever at times...
 
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This is by far one of the most interesting discussions I have ever read here.

Ok, so humans have certain ways of grouping colors that some people think may be related to the ways our brains and eyes work and have evolved, right? So going back to the OP. I don't have time to read the entire linked thread, but is the basic contention that people with a substantially different language experience the world differently? Or what? I'm finding the discussion of the science of language very interesting, but am having a hard time figuring out what the OP's quote is getting at. Can someone illuminate this?
I think we all experience the world differently due to many factors and language is one of them. The real question is how much does language affect how you see the world? Science is a system of overcoming those differences and eliminating personal and other biases. Apparently they are still studying the amount of influence language has on thoughts. It seems clear that language is limited by our innate abilities but how much and how much does language limit our innate abilities? My assessment from what I have read is that there is insufficient evidence at this point to say with any accuracy how much. However I could be wrong. The op's quote was saying that language affected our innate abilities to see the world.
 
Wouldn't it be mostly environmental, rather than a cognitive constraint? I mean, it's pretty easy to see why black, white, red, yellow, green would get separate names first, right?

Is it?

Why does red get a name before green -- and why does yellow get a name before blue?

I don't see any particular environmental reason why that would be the case. Perhaps I lack imagination.


But would we expect the same thing in a population that was uniformly red/green colourblind? Or, say, a Morelock population?

Well, color-blindness is usually considered to be a cognitive limitation, since it affects the person instead of the environment. The leaves are still green, even if you can't perceive them properly. But you're right that Morlock populations might well develop odd languages --but at this point, we're also talking about a degree of evolution that makes the Morlocks no longer human as we understand the term, which would also permit -- I'd argue, require -- a degree of modification to the brain/mind architecture as well as the visual pathway.
 
So going back to the OP. I don't have time to read the entire linked thread, but is the basic contention that people with a substantially different language experience the world differently?

That's the claim. It's formally known as the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, after its two major proponents in the 1930s.

Unfortunately for the OP (and for Drs. Sapir and Whorf), it's a lovely hypothesis with no empirical support -- and quite a bit of empirical refutation.
 

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