Ockham's Razor (sharpening it)

[Iacchus]

How does the brain know anything, Iacchus? We don't understand all the details, but it is pretty certain that "knowing things" is one of the functions of the brain. Injure the brain, and you may stop knowing some things.

How does a light bulb emit any light without any electricity? And here, the light bulb is merely the recteptacle.

Radio waves are well understood. They are demonstrable and repeatable, and everyone who picks up the same frequency gets the same message. None of the above is true for "consciousness transferring." Believe me, this analogy has been made many times and has been thoroughly smashed.

And when you break the radio it stops receiving the signal which, is still there. What would be the difference between this and incurring a brain injury?

As soon as you can demonstrate the existence of "consciousness waves", we'll give it some credence.

Yes, as soon as you can demonstrate that a radio can't receive a signal once it's broken ...

There are lots of "life forces", but they eventually resolve down to plain old physical, chemical, electrical etc. forces. And they all disappear when you die and decompose. I could be wrong, but I await your evidence (not belief) for any life force which survives death.

My evidence presents itself to me in my mind which, is that part of me which is conscious. Sorry, that's about all I can tell you. So in the meantime we'll just have to speculate on it I guess? Albeit it would be wrong of me to claim that I don't know what I know, right?

Depends on what you mean by "robot". If there were such a thing as a conscious robot, would it then have a "soul"? Where would it come from?

I think you're putting the cart before the horse here. It's quite an assumption that you're making.

From all appearance, you are just another of the millions of people who are afraid to die, and must believe that something survives death, otherwise it is too scary.

Why should any of us be afraid to die? Unless of course there really is something there ...

And since when do you accept things only from the way they appear? I realize that you have to have something to go on, however ...

Well, something does, my friend. Your memes survive death. The things you have said to others, the things you have taught people, the ideas you have created may survive your death. But they had better be pretty good ones, or they won't survive long after your death. I advise you to start doing some critical thinking right away. Time is fleeting.

And if the whole world blew up tomorrow? There wouldn't be much of a record for anyone now would there?

 

[Tricky]

How does a light bulb emit any light without any electricity? And here, the light bulb is merely the recteptacle.

Gosh, Iccy, that's a really lame analogy. In the case of a light bulb, we know where the energy is coming from. We can trace it all the way back to the solar energy needed to create the fossil fuels to run the power plant to generate the electricity to power your bulb. If you don't believe me, stick your finger into a hot socket.

Now, can you trace back the "consciousness energy" through such easily discernable steps? I'm guessing your going to run into "faith" at step one.

And when you break the radio it stops receiving the signal which, is still there. What would be the difference between this and incurring a brain injury?

Yes, very much, because other radios are still picking up the exact same signal! When a brain is injured, what other brains are thinking the exact same thoughts?. Perhaps you see now why this analogy is so weak.

Yes, as soon as you can demonstrate that a radio can't receive a signal once it's broken ...

What do you mean by "receive" here. Radio waves are all around us and I can prove it to you. Everything "receives radio signals, but only specific devices can translate them. However, those numerous devices all translate them the same way. Your analogy is still fatally flawed.

My evidence presents itself to me in my mind which, is that part of me which is conscious. Sorry, that's about all I can tell you. So in the meantime we'll just have to speculate on it I guess? Albeit it would be wrong of me to claim that I don't know what I know, right?

Speculation is fun, and is part of the scientific process. Then you test your speculations. That is where your logic falls down. You don't require any testing. If it's in your mind, that's good enough for you. I am not so undemanding about evidence. I feel it must be evident to others as well. If you can't give me evidence that you "know" something, then it appears to me that you only "believe" it. Know. Believe. Know. Believe. Learn the difference, sir.

I think you're putting the cart before the horse here. It's quite an assumption that you're making.

Yes it is. The assumption is that a mechanical being could have a soul. Well, my friend, you are a mechanical being. Much of what you are has been explained by science, and much more will be. If you have a soul, then it is a part of a mostly mechanical being. To assume a mechanical being such as a "robot" could not also have one is pure egotism.

My own belief is that neither you nor robots have or would have souls, but that is simply a device your mechanical body uses to keep it from fear of being completely dismantled.

Why should any of us be afraid to die? Unless of course there really is something there ...

Actually, many religions, including some versions of Christianity, try to instill the fear of death into us, by making us think we will be punished if we do the wrong thing. Alternately, they may use the promise of afterlife to make someone fear not having afterlife. Both cases are scare tactics, and they are used to enforce obedience to the rules. A person who neither fears Hell nor the lack of an afterlife is the only person who can truly not fear death. I'm guessing you are not one of those.

And since when do you accept things only from the way they appear? I realize that you have to have something to go on, however ... if the whole world blew up tomorrow? There wouldn't be much of a record for anyone now would there?

Nope. We'd all be dead. All our memes too. Though I don't want it to happen because, since I am an empathetic person, I want my fellow humans to experience life, I don't fear what would happen afterwards either for myself or anyone else. Do you?

 

[RandFan]

Iacchus,

I myself am a dualist (of sorts). I think it more likely than not that the mind is not substrate neutral. I also believe that the hard problem of consciousness is real. There seems to me to be a self.

That being said, I can offer little if any real evidence that this is the case. My "belief" is based on intuition and philosophical questions about qualia and the inability to reconcile those things with the scientific notion that the mind (or what we think of as mind) is just, state, algorithms, heuristics and brain chemistry.

Intuition and questions are NOT answers. As much as I think that HPC is real I have to defer to those who work in this area and assure me that my problem is one of imagination and or comprehension (I would appeal to authority and say that there are experts in the field that also feel the way I do).

Having read much in this area and understanding AI to a good degree (I'm a programmer though not a gifted one by any means) I can say that I concur with Tricky in that your arguments about radio waves are indeed weak. JMO.

 

[Iacchus]

Gosh, Iccy, that's a really lame analogy. In the case of a light bulb, we know where the energy is coming from. We can trace it all the way back to the solar energy needed to create the fossil fuels to run the power plant to generate the electricity to power your bulb. If you don't believe me, stick your finger into a hot socket.

Now, can you trace back the "consciousness energy" through such easily discernable steps? I'm guessing your going to run into "faith" at step one.

The brain merely serves as the containment for consciousness.

Yes, very much, because other radios are still picking up the exact same signal! When a brain is injured, what other brains are thinking the exact same thoughts?. Perhaps you see now why this analogy is so weak.

For identical twins perhaps, otherwise I would suggest disalike minds don't think alike, i.e., are tuned into a different signal. Also, I would go so far as to say the human mind broadcasts as well as receives, otherwise there would be no real connection with the spiritual world, on a subconscious level or otherwise. By the way, ever hear of someone waking up in the middle of the night and sensing a close relative has died? Only to find out the next day that this actually happened, at the exact same moment they sensed it? I understand it's quite a common experience.

What do you mean by "receive" here. Radio waves are all around us and I can prove it to you. Everything "receives radio signals, but only specific devices can translate them. However, those numerous devices all translate them the same way. Your analogy is still fatally flawed.

Ever stop to think that the radio is just the receptacle for radio waves, just as the brain is the receptacle for consciousness? Of course we don't necessarily have to use a radio here either. How about a CD player? It still illustrates that the medium, the music CD, is still a seperate entity from the CD player itself. While the same thing can said about the software on a computer, the software is a completely separate medium from the computer which accesses it.

Speculation is fun, and is part of the scientific process. Then you test your speculations. That is where your logic falls down. You don't require any testing. If it's in your mind, that's good enough for you. I am not so undemanding about evidence. I feel it must be evident to others as well. If you can't give me evidence that you "know" something, then it appears to me that you only "believe" it. Know. Believe. Know. Believe. Learn the difference, sir.

Everything that we know is within our minds.

Yes it is. The assumption is that a mechanical being could have a soul. Well, my friend, you are a mechanical being. Much of what you are has been explained by science, and much more will be. If you have a soul, then it is a part of a mostly mechanical being. To assume a mechanical being such as a "robot" could not also have one is pure egotism.

Yes, I believe in a universe which is strictly mechanical. However, that doesn't imply that's all there is.

My own belief is that neither you nor robots have or would have souls, but that is simply a device your mechanical body uses to keep it from fear of being completely dismantled.

Do you mean like the car alarm that goes off when sombody's trying to break into your car? A little over-simplified don't you think?

Actually, many religions, including some versions of Christianity, try to instill the fear of death into us, by making us think we will be punished if we do the wrong thing. Alternately, they may use the promise of afterlife to make someone fear not having afterlife. Both cases are scare tactics, and they are used to enforce obedience to the rules. A person who neither fears Hell nor the lack of an afterlife is the only person who can truly not fear death. I'm guessing you are not one of those.

Most people are afraid of death regardless.

Nope. We'd all be dead. All our memes too. Though I don't want it to happen because, since I am an empathetic person, I want my fellow humans to experience life, I don't fear what would happen afterwards either for myself or anyone else. Do you?

From nothing we came, and to nothing we go, all the rest is sentimental hogwash. Sorry, this is the only conclusion I can draw based upon your argument. Of course what are we to expect from a life which has no meaning?

 

[Yahweh]

Just a word of advice:

The overliteralization of the Radio/Brain metaphors are meaningless. Treat the brain as a brain, treat radios as radios, but dont treat one like the other.

 

[Tricky]

The brain merely serves as the containment for consciousness.

Then to show this, you need onle demonstrate (not assert!) a single consciousness that exists outside of its containment. If you cannot do this, then the logical conclusion is that consciousness cannot exist outside of a brain.

Also, I would go so far as to say the human mind broadcasts as well as receives, otherwise there would be no real connection with the spiritual world, on a subconscious level or otherwise.

LOL. No one has yet demonstrated that there is such a connection.

By the way, ever hear of someone waking up in the middle of the night and sensing a close relative has died? Only to find out the next day that this actually happened, at the exact same moment they sensed it? I understand it's quite a common experience.

Perhaps so, but not NEARLY as common has having sensing that someone has died and finding out they haven't. But people tend to forget the "misses", don't they?

Ever stop to think that the radio is just the receptacle for radio waves, just as the brain is the receptacle for consciousness? Of course we don't necessarily have to use a radio here either. How about a CD player? It still illustrates that the medium, the music CD, is still a seperate entity from the CD player itself. While the same thing can said about the software on a computer, the software is a completely separate medium from the computer which accesses it.

You are getting ever more hung up on electronics. Okay, envision this. The body is one big componant stystem. The brain is one part, the mind is another, the stomach is another etc. You do not see any functioning stomachs outside of a body (at least not for very long). You do not see any brains outside of a functioning body. You do not see any minds outside of a functioning body. When you turn off the power to the componant system, you turn everything off and, within a short time, they will power down and become non-functional.

Of course, this is a stupid analogy, because as Yaweh has pointed out, brains aren't radios. Radios can completely lose power, and yet be turned on again. Brains cannot. They are not the same. They are different. Let's lose this metaphor.

Everything that we know is within our minds.

And the "mind" is one of the many functions of the brain.

Yes, I believe in a universe which is strictly mechanical. However, that doesn't imply that's all there is.

Um... yes it does. If some part of the universe is not "mechanical" (I prefer "physical") then it is not "strictly mechanical", by definition.

Do you mean like the car alarm that goes off when sombody's trying to break into your car? A little over-simplified don't you think?

No that is not at all what I mean. And as for simplification, let me remind you of your vastly oversimplified radio/brain analogy. I am trying to be clear for you.

Most people are afraid of death regardless.

Because most people value their consciousness. But not everybody is so afraid that they must invent or accept magickal scenarios where, against all evidence, their consciousness lives on after they die.

From nothing we came, and to nothing we go, all the rest is sentimental hogwash. Sorry, this is the only conclusion I can draw based upon your argument. Of course what are we to expect from a life which has no meaning?

No, the "sentimental hogwash" is the meaning. Call me a sentimental sap, but I like the thought of enjoying life, helping people, and thinking about the future of humanity, and indeed the universe, after I die. I don't have to be there to care about it.

So my life has plenty of meaning. It is different from the "cosmic" meaning that you seem to require to convince yourself of your own significance.