Obsession and the "Protocols of Islam"

[gumboot]

There is nothing to worry about. Relax.

If Muslim fanatics should ever become a real threat to the West, the nukes will be launched. We may then have an oil crisis for a short period, but that's the price you sometimes need to pay.

And where will we drop the nukes? On Sunni and Shiite and Persian and Kurdish cities? Will we extermine the millions of non fanatical muslims as well? Will we extermine the people who are victims of their tyrannical leaders?

Or shall we nuke Manchester or Paris or London instead, which have increasingly influencial and out-spoken fantatics?

This is not an issue of nations. There are an estimated180 million fanatic muslims in the world, and they are everywhere. We can't "nuke them". They are infiltrating our own societies and turning our own freedoms against us.

Or the Islamic Thinkers Society, speaking on the streets of New York City in June, 2005:

Just to show where our loyalty belongs to, You see this flay here? [United States flag] It's going to go on the floor. [Flag placed on ground and stood on] And to us, our loyalty does not belong to this flag - our loyalty belongs to Allah [praised and exalted is He]! Allah is the greatest!...

...Don't be afriad to speak out against injustice. In this country, one of the loopholes of this government, is they allow the freedom of expression.

Now, do I think there is some complex overarching plot by some evil council of Islamic elders to infiltrate the west? Of course not. These are independent groups that share only a common purpose. But that does not mean they won't assist each other (consciously or subconsciously). I think we have grossly misunderestimated just how sophisticated they are, and how well they understand and are manipulating our laws and freedom.

-Andrew

 

[Pardalis]

Now, looking at all this stuff, I believe it is a totally legitimate question to ask; "What is the level of indoctrination of hatred in these countries?" and "If it is as bad as presented here, what do we do about it?"

It is frightening to see children say such things, but I would have to see where these video exerpts are taken from to understand the context in which they were filmed, in order to grasp the full extent of this alledged indocrination.

 

[gumboot]

It is frightening to see children say such things, but I would have to see where these video exerpts are taken from to understand the context in which they were filmed, in order to grasp the full extent of this alledged indocrination.

Absolutely. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see that the particular interview with this young girl was manipulated (for example the leading question "They are what?"). However my main concern is this is being shown on a government operated Saudi television channel. That is the alarming thing...

The documentary also shows a LOT of footage taken in Palestinian schools of children reading Jihad poetry, children in militias with AK-47's, children doing AK-47 weapons drills, Palestinian children being interviewed at a rally saying they want to tell Bush he is a pig and set him on fire and kill Sharon with a sword, etc...

The poetry is quite disturbing, because they are quite emotional, screaming, crying, etc (it could be a "Drama" lesson or otherwise, though). However in the interviews on the street the children clearly don't really appreciate the significance of what they are saying.

One of the interviewees in the documentary grew up in Gaza and went to school there in the 1950's. She indicates similar things were going on in these schools half a century ago.

A couple of good websites (who provided the translations of the Middle East television/radio broadcasts in the documentary) are:
Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI)

The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) explores the Middle East through the region's media. MEMRI bridges the language gap which exists between the West and the Middle East, providing timely translations of Arabic, Persian, and Turkish media, as well as original analysis of political, ideological, intellectual, social, cultural, and religious trends in the Middle East.

Founded in February 1998 to inform the debate over U.S. policy in the Middle East, MEMRI is an independent, nonpartisan, nonprofit, 501 (c)3 organization. MEMRI's headquarters is located in Washington, DC with branch offices in Berlin, London, Tokyo and Jerusalem. MEMRI research is translated to English, German, Hebrew, Italian, French, Spanish and Japanese.

And:

Palestinian Media Watch

Palestinian Media Watch was established in 1996 to gain an understanding of Palestinian society through the monitoring of the Palestinian Arabic language media and schoolbooks. Palestinian Media Watch analyzes Palestinian Authority culture and society from numerous perspectives, including studies on summer camps, poetry, schoolbooks, religious ideology, crossword puzzles, and more.

Palestinian Media Watch has been playing the critical role of documenting the contradictions between the image the Palestinians present to the world in English and the messages to their own people in Arabic. The world’s view of the Palestinian Authority, to a significant degree, is the result of Palestinian Media Watch research.

Itamar Marcus is director of Palestinian Media Watch.

Mr. Marcus was also the Director of Research for the Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace from 1998 - 2000, writing studies on Palestinian, Jordanian, and Syrian school textbooks.

Mr. Marcus was a member of the Israeli delegation to the Tri-lateral [American, Israeli and Palestinian] Committee to Monitor Incitement, established under the Wye Accords.

Palestinian Media Watch prepared the material for the Israeli delegation that was submitted at these negotiations

What is useful is these not only look into a broad range of TV stations, but also cartoons, posters, school teaching, etc...

Most of the west likely get their Muslim POV media from outlets like Al Jazeera. As the documentary "Obsession" shows, Al Jazeera gives a far more moderate representation, and only looking at something like Al Jazeera would not reveal more widespread but more extreme media.

MEMRI, for example, specifically focuses on Government media. (Acknowledging that private media may be incredibly fanatical, yet not popular, whereas government media is "official").

-Andrew

 

[Pardalis]

BTW, isn't this video available to see on Youtube or Google video? I remember seeing it a few days ago. I think someone posted a link at the Loose Change III thread. I can't remember which page.

ETA: I think it was Marky.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

It got pulled from google due to copyright issues.

I think it's up on bit torrent somewhere though.

 

[gumboot]

BTW, isn't this video available to see on Youtube or Google video? I remember seeing it a few days ago. I think someone posted a link at the Loose Change III thread. I can't remember which page.

ETA: I think it was Marky.

Yup. Google Video. There's also a lot of extracts from it.

It's also available as a torrent file in higher quality.

-Andrew

 

[gumboot]

One thing I haven't mentioned...

I was impressed by the documentary's attempts to disassociate radical islam from the rest of islamic culture. This is naturally difficult to do given the subject matter.

The documentary opens by making this distinction, and makes it again throughout. It shows Muslims on Al Jazeera, for example, discussing the exact same problem - "We have taught our children how to die for Allah, but now how to live for Allah". It also shows Iranians chanting "Death to Terrorists" and sermons by clerics saying Terrorists are the enemy. Further more it emphasises that these people speaking out are incredibly couragous, and desperately need the support of the West.

While Militant Islam only threatens to dominate western society, it has ALREADY dominated these people in many Islamic countries. The longer we leave the problem unaddressed, the more innocent people will be dragged into their net of hatred. Every person who is converted to Militant Islam, certainly, is one more person the west has to defeat. But more importantly it is one more decent, moderate person we have lost from our own cause. One more person who can offer and insight into this threat.

-Andrew

 

[RyanRoberts]

The election was in June 2005 and at that time most of the iranians already stopped beeing glad about Saddam Hussein's disempowerment and were very angry about the way the US-Occupation in Iraq went. Without that anger, it had been a sure success for Rafsanjani, who was president from 89 to 97 and was quite moderate in his policies (some called him a reformer).

Some 'Reformer' . Jew Murdering has cross bench consensus in Iran.

 

[AWPrime]

And where will we drop the nukes? On Sunni and Shiite and Persian and Kurdish cities? Will we extermine the millions of non fanatical muslims as well? Will we extermine the people who are victims of their tyrannical leaders?

Or shall we nuke Manchester or Paris or London instead, which have increasingly influencial and out-spoken fantatics?

Depends if it becomes total war.

 

[RyanRoberts]

While Militant Islam only threatens to dominate western society, it has ALREADY dominated these people in many Islamic countries. The longer we leave the problem unaddressed, the more innocent people will be dragged into their net of hatred. Every person who is converted to Militant Islam, certainly, is one more person the west has to defeat. But more importantly it is one more decent, moderate person we have lost from our own cause. One more person who can offer and insight into this threat.

-Andrew

It is a good point, this new wave of radicalism is regressive even if you look at the Ottoman Empire in the 18th and 19th centuries, when it began reforming its legal system and courting the great European powers. Ataturk did not arise from a vacuum and suddenly secularise the place.

Unfortunately, the reasoning used by Islamists, even so called moderates like the MCB is that Islam had its golden period a thousand years ago and all Muslims have a duty work recreating that perfect Islamic state, jettisoning the corrupting influence of the west.

This radicalism claims many Muslims as victims but cannot be considered as a problem that somehow exists outside of Islam. It is the responsibility of Muslims to direct their faith towards sanity, not the Infidel.

 

[AWPrime]

Unfortunately, the reasoning used by Islamists, even so called moderates like the MCB is that Islam had its golden period a thousand years ago and all Muslims have a duty work recreating that perfect Islamic state, jettisoning the corrupting influence of the west.

The irony is that they themselves were the cause of the downfall of their golden periode.

 

[RyanRoberts]

Indeed, it was a wave of fanaticism that ended it too - an inquisition in Al Andalus and the imprisonment of Averroes symbolising it. Most of the great intellectual figures of Islam would be regarded as heretics by Salafist types if they were alive today.

 

[gumboot]

This radicalism claims many Muslims as victims but cannot be considered as a problem that somehow exists outside of Islam. It is the responsibility of Muslims to direct their faith towards sanity, not the Infidel.

That's true. But there's some pertinent words here...

But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security.

-The United States Declaration of Independence

The problem is, left unchecked, Radical Islam WILL become our problem (as it is already becoming).

In the 1930's Europe considered Hitler to be Germany's problem. They refused to act, despite warnings from people like Churchill. It would be wise to learn from one of mankinds most criminal mistakes.

-Andrew

The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
-Albert Einstein

 

[RyanRoberts]

Agreed, but if we do it it will be far worse for Muslims than an internal reform. Given quite how difficult it seems to be for some people to recognise moderate Muslims among the ranks of smooth talking Salafists.

 

[gumboot]

What it doesn't tell you is that they are associated with, both films released by and the website registered to Aish HaTorah^WP.

If you look into the documentary you'll actually notice it is produced and distributed by a company called Honest Reporting.

From their website:

"So there were 4 or 5 of us British university students, kicking ideas around, frustrated and wondering what we could do to help Israel...

...In early 2001, those first volunteers turned to the Jerusalem Fund of Aish HaTorah to help build a website, develop materials and grow the subscriber base even further. Later that year, the project, having grown to become a major organization in its own right, was established as a US non-profit organization (501c3) with an Independent Board of Directors.

Two years later, HonestReporting Canada (HRC) was founded as an independent, non-profit organization headquartered in Toronto, Canada. In February of 2006, under a fresh management team, HonestReporting was granted independent Charitable Organization status in Israel to compliment its US and Canadian status.

In March 2006, HonestReporting UK was launched under the guidance of the team's two ex-pat Britons; Joe Hyams, Managing Director, and Simon Plosker, Senior Editor. HonestReporting UK expects to achieve UK Registered Charity Status with an Independent Board in due course.

So as you can see, Aish HaTorah provided their funding in the early days. Honest Reporting consists of four independent companies, started by a group of British Jews.

Hardly the Zionist empire...

-Andrew

 

[Childlike Empress]

If you look into the documentary you'll actually notice it is produced and distributed by a company called Honest Reporting.

From their website:

So as you can see, Aish HaTorah provided their funding in the early days. Honest Reporting consists of four independent companies, started by a group of British Jews.

Oh, so the Bible Code believing fundamentalists of Aish HaTorah have nothing to do with your movie? That's what they want you to think. Wikipedia describes Honest Reporting as "spin-off" of Aish HaTorah. Do you want to know how i found out about the connection? It's the first thing i do when i want to know who is behind an information on the web: A whois search.

www.obsessionthemovie.com is registered in Jerusalem by Aish HaTorah.

So you rely on a film made by fundamentalists telling you about fundamentalists of an "opposing" faith. Do you know if the translation is correct and the texts are quoted in context? At least MEMRI, founded by an IDF Colonel, was often critizised for beeing biased and translating only the worst of the worst examples of the muslim media.

I did a search on your statement that it was "estimated" that 180 million muslims are "fanatic" (definition?). I found that this number was "estimated" by Daniel Pipes, the rabid anti-islam neocon, quoted in WorldNetDaily.

Hardly the Zionist empire...

This statement is quite low. You should ask yourself why you WANT to belief the biased and exaggerated view on the issue presented by these sources.

edit @Pardalis: From what i have read at that time (mostly newspaper articles) and what an iranian friend told me, i'm quite sure that it was one main reason for Ahmadinedjad beeing successful in playing the populist and religious card.

 

[RyanRoberts]

MEMRI has never been accused of innacuracy, only selectivity in the media that it translates. To say MEMRI represents all of the Arab media and clerical opinion would be incorrect, but it would be equaly incorrect to dismiss it due to 'bias', those people say what they say.

 

[gumboot]

Oh, so the Bible Code believing fundamentalists of Aish HaTorah have nothing to do with your movie? That's what they want you to think.

It's not *my* movie. And your paranoid bias is a little sad. Are you saying the Honest Reporting website directly lies about its orgins?

Wikipedia describes Honest Reporting as "spin-off" of Aish HaTorah.

It doesn't, actually.

The organization was founded by Aish HaTorah on the initiative of "4 or 5 of us British university students, kicking ideas around, frustrated and wondering what we could do to help Israel."[2] It originated as a website although it now exists as an independent organization.

The only difference is Wikipedia uses "founded" while their own website uses "funded". Since Wikipedia collaborate's the site's claim that it was initiated independently of Aish HaTorah I think it was fair to say the Jewish organisation did not "found" it.

So you rely on a film made by fundamentalists telling you about fundamentalists of an "opposing" faith. Do you know if the translation is correct and the texts are quoted in context?

Aish HaTorah don't appear to be fundamentalists, as far as I can tell. And they certainly don't appear to be militant extremists, which is what the documentary is about.

So they believe in Bible Code? So what. They also believe in a divine being, which I personally think is AT LEAST as stupid as believing in Bible Codes. At least the Bible is a physical entity that truely does exist.

Shall I condemn everyone whose beliefs differ from mine as a fundamentalist and lump them in with people like Osama bin Laden or Adolf Hitler? What nonsense.

Do I know if the translations are correct? A few, I know, are correct (a friend of mine in highschool taught classes in reading the Koran to fellow Muslim children, and he taught me a few bits and pieces of Arabic). The translations come from reputable sources. Of course you will call them biased. Of course they are biased. Their agenda is to show the world what is broadcast on Arabic, Iranian, and Turkish television. The Arab world are hardly going to be keen to reveal it themselves are they?

I did a search on your statement that it was "estimated" that 180 million muslims are "fanatic" (definition?). I found that this number was "estimated" by Daniel Pipes, the rabid anti-islam neocon, quoted in WorldNetDaily.

Well yay for you. But you're wrong.

The estimates come from two interviewees in Obsession. They are:

Dr. Daniel Pipes

Dr. Daniel Pipes is director of the Middle East Forum , and a prize-winning columnist for the New York Sun and The Jerusalem Post . His website, DanielPipes.org , is the single most accessed source of specialized information on the Middle East and Islam. Mr. Pipes has served in various capacities in the U.S. government, including two presidentially-appointed positions, vice chairman of the Fulbright Board of Foreign Scholarships and member of the board of the U.S. Institute of Peace. He was director of the Foreign Policy Research Institute in 1986-93. Mr. Pipes frequently discusses current issues on television. He has written many books and articles, and his writings have appeared on hundreds of websites and been translated into 24 languages.

and Walid Shoebat

Walid Shoebat was born in Bethlehem . As a young man, he became a member of the PLO, participated in acts of terror and violence against Israel , and was later imprisoned for incitement and violence. After his release, he continued his life of violence and rioting. After entering the U.S, he worked as a counselor for the Arab Student Organization at Loop College in Chicago and continued his anti-Israel activities. In 1993, he studied the Jewish Bible in a challenge to convert his wife to Islam. Six months later, after intense study, Walid realized that everything he had been taught about Jews was a lie. Convinced he was on the side of evil, he became an advocate for his former enemy. Today, he lectures around the world. Walid is an American citizen and lives in the USA with his wife and children, under this assumed name.

What you STILL fail to understand (obviously you haven't watched the documentary or looked into its claims) is this documentary does not present a message of hate. It is foremost a WARNING. And it is a message of hope. Not for Jews. Not for Christians. For anyone who doesn't want to live a slave under Islamo-Facism.

This is in TOTAL contrast to the messages they show from the other side. I don't care if this is ALL that is broadcast on Muslim television or not. The fact that it is broadcast AT ALL is the message. The message of these broadcasts is unequestionable one of complete and utter blind hatred.

This statement is quite low. You should ask yourself why you WANT to belief the biased and exaggerated view on the issue presented by these sources.

Why on earth would I *want* to believe the total destruction of western civilisation was a possibility in the next 50 years?

I have done my own research, and I think the stuation is at least as bad as the documentary presents. The connections between Nazi Germany and Fascist Islam thicken the further I research. Believe me I well understand what we are dealing with here.

I'm not keen to stick my head in the sand and hope it goes away. I'm not that stupid.

My country TWICE offered a sacrifice grossly out of proportion to confront and defeat the threat of Germany. A threat that lay 10,000 miles from our shores. We were the first nation in the world to declare war against Hitler. Every town bears the scars on stone memorials.

And yet we didn't beat Hitler. Despite it, his sick ideas lived on. And now they're rearing their head again.

-Andrew

 

[Childlike Empress]

It's not *my* movie. And your paranoid bias is a little sad. Are you saying the Honest Reporting website directly lies about its orgins?

The film says it was made by HR, HR says it has nothing to do with AHT and the website is registered by AHT. What's your explanation for that?

It doesn't, actually.

It does - in the Aish HaTorah article.

Well yay for you. But you're wrong.

The estimates come from two interviewees in Obsession. They are:

Dr. Daniel Pipes

and Walid Shoebat

I'm wrong? I found one of the two sources without watching the movie. That's wrong? If you think Mr. Pipes has an objective view on Islam, i can only say that we disagree.

What you STILL fail to understand (obviously you haven't watched the documentary or looked into its claims) is this documentary does not present a message of hate. It is foremost a WARNING. And it is a message of hope. Not for Jews. Not for Christians. For anyone who doesn't want to live a slave under Islamo-Facism.

Hope? Kill 'em all and carry on? No, seriously, i havn't watched it. Perhaps i will do.

The message of these broadcasts is unequestionable one of complete and utter blind hatred.

I don't doubt that. I don't deny militant islam but i don't think it's a real threat to "the west" - unless we continue bombing defenseless people. I think it is an exaggerated enemy picture.

Why on earth would I *want* to believe the total destruction of western civilisation was a possibility in the next 50 years?

I have done my own research, and I think the stuation is at least as bad as the documentary presents. The connections between Nazi Germany and Fascist Islam thicken the further I research. Believe me I well understand what we are dealing with here.

I did my own research too and came to different conclusions. My main fear are the connections between fascist (also known as corporatist) ideology and the western establishments today.

My country TWICE offered a sacrifice grossly out of proportion to confront and defeat the threat of Germany. A threat that lay 10,000 miles from our shores. We were the first nation in the world to declare war against Hitler. Every town bears the scars on stone memorials.

And yet we didn't beat Hitler. Despite it, his sick ideas lived on. And now they're rearing their head again.

I'll comment on that later.

 

[Camillus]

One of the things that has always made me suspicious of the "islamists are going to take over the world if we don't do something about it" crowd is that none of them seem to be able to demonstrate how the radicals are going to achieve their aim.

The history of islamist movements has hardly been a rousing tale of success across the muslim world. They failed in Eygpt and Algeria and were still fighting for control of Afghanistan when they were ousted by the US. In Iraq they seem more concerned with killing Shia's than killing coalition forces and the chances are that they are going to lose the civil war in that country.

Certainly they seem to be able to mount the odd "spectacular" (as the IRA used to call it) but none of their attacks on Western targets have affected those countries abilities to function as liberal democracies or sent their populations rushing to convert to islam.

I cannot help but feel that the islamists cannot effectively project force outside the limited sphere of primarily Sunni muslim countries and as a result the only way they really threaten us is because we choose to think of them as a serious threat.

It is almost as if, having disposed of the Soviets, the West needs something to be afraid of. Why I don't know - perhaps because politicians and the media always need to be seen to be fighting against something because that is what sells papers and brings in votes.