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Objectivism vs Libertarianism

fabian_lidman

Scholar
Joined
May 11, 2006
Messages
97
Where i live, neither objectivism nor libertarianism is common. I know that there has been some friction between them -- Rand called libertarians "hippies" and "anarchists". But i'm curious to find out more.
What is the difference between the philosophies?
In what way does objectivism differ from anarchism? (Why did Rand despise it?)
 
Well, you see, Objectivism is like the water taxi to Aspero, and libertarianism is like the water taxi to Donso...
 
Where i live, neither objectivism nor libertarianism is common. I know that there has been some friction between them -- Rand called libertarians "hippies" and "anarchists". But i'm curious to find out more.
What is the difference between the philosophies?
In what way does objectivism differ from anarchism? (Why did Rand despise it?)

Define those two terms first.

As for why Rand despise it? Well, you'd have to ask Rand.
 
First you have to distinguish between Libertarianism (capital 'L', refers to a political party) and libertarianism (a doctrine, at least in the United States, associated with free-market capitalism).

Rand opposed the political party because they lacked a proper ethical foundation, specifically Objectivist ethics. There are lots of different schools of thoughts for libertarianism, some of which are explicitly Kantian, such as the work of the influential academic Robert Nozick. Then there's utilitarianism (Milt Friedman, who is a libertarian and a Republican), mutual advantage, social contract theory. Libertarianism is a bigger tent, allowing for views other than Rand's nutty "virtue of selfishness" nonsense.

I think there's a good chapter on this in Jeff Walker's excellent book _The Ayn Rand Cult_. David Friedman (son of Milt) has said (I think!) she didn't want to be a big fish in a big pond. Rand could not influence the Libertarian Party in the same way she could influence "Objectivism."

She dismissed anarcho-capitalism as a "floating abstraction" and repeated rather standard arguments against the view in (I'm pretty sure) _Capitalism: the Unknown Ideal_ (which also argued for an "objective" gold standard). Roy Childs wrote a devastating open letter to her where he took her views apart. Worth reading if you can find it.
 
AFAIK Randian objectivism is contingent upon accepting that Randian ethical structure whereas anarchism is basically nothing more than supporting a complete lack of government. In fact, Rand explicitly stated that governments were good and necessary, but only to enforce objectivist ethics (I.E. to prevent theft, cheating, etc.).
 
Thanks for your answers. I found the Roy Childs letter (it's here) and it does clarify the difference between objectivism and libertarianism. Objectivists do want a limited government -- that makes sense.
To me personally, anarchism (or "anarcho-capitalism", but how do you know people don't spontanously organise themselves into collective socialist structures?) seems like a recipe for civil war. At the same time, as a liberal i'm intrigued by these very "extreme" ideas. Hence my original question.
 
To me personally, anarchism (or "anarcho-capitalism", but how do you know people don't spontanously organise themselves into collective socialist structures?) seems like a recipe for civil war.

The easy way around all the possible problems of these structures is that once something like that happens, it is no longer anarchism (or objectivism).

In other words, anarchism or objectivism have no flaws other than the fact that they can very easily mutate into something that is no longer anarchism or objectivism.
 
Yes, but either will work just fine as soon as human nature changes for the better. :)
 
The easy way around all the possible problems of these structures is that once something like that happens, it is no longer anarchism (or objectivism).

Collectivist socialist structures are perfectly consistent with the background conditions of anarchism (assuming they're voluntary). Murray Rothbard* briefly organized left and right anarchists. Fabian, if you're interested in these ideas, then browse Rothbard's book _Ethics of Liberty_, available online at Mises.org/ Of course, it's absolutely ***** crazy, but also straight-forward and well-written.

*Rothbard was banned from Rand's inner circle because his wife was a Christian, and Rand gave her six months to convert to agnositicism. Which is not to suggest he felt bad about leaving - he didn't. Rand and her followers were too doctrinaire for him. He did write a piece back in the 70s, probably also available on Mises.org/ where he discussed the objectivist cult. He was apparently criticized for only reading _Atlas Shrugged_ one time. A true-believer boasted about reading it something like 35 times and said he was going on 36.

In other words, anarchism or objectivism have no flaws other than the fact that they can very easily mutate into something that is no longer anarchism or objectivism.
This is sort of a flaw. Funny story. I was arguing with a self-described anarcho-capitalist a couple weeks ago. He first confused the background conditions (anarchism) for "real" capitalism, at one point stating that a lack of government = capitalism (thus implying our hunter-gatherer ancestors were anarcho-capitalists). Then he said there were a "billion" examples of anarcho-capitalism, and cited Somalia, along with the World Bank report on Somalia a couple years ago. The next weekend Mogadishu was overtaken by Islamic fundamentalists.

Anarcho-capitalism is consistent with the usual libertarian axoims (natural rights, entitlement theory, self-ownership, whatever), but it's also crazy. Does anyone really want warlords competing in the free-market?
 
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Libertarianism is the political philosophy that government should be rather small, that capitalism is totally awesome and should be unregulated, that people shold be free to do whatever they want except initiate force against people's life, liberty, or property, stuff like that.

Objectivism believes in most of that stuff, but also has very specific reasons for believing in them (ultimately derived from the ethical belief that people should hold themselves--their rationality, their sense of purpose, their self esteem--as their highest value) as well as some stuff only dimly related to politics, in the areas of metaphysics, epistemology, aesthetics, and whatever.
 
This is sort of a flaw. Funny story. I was arguing with a self-described anarcho-capitalist a couple weeks ago. He first confused the background conditions (anarchism) for "real" capitalism, at one point stating that a lack of government = capitalism (thus implying our hunter-gatherer ancestors were anarcho-capitalists). Then he said there were a "billion" examples of anarcho-capitalism, and cited Somalia, along with the World Bank report on Somalia a couple years ago.
And this was suposed to be an argument in favour of anarcho-capitalism?
 
Libertarianism is the political philosophy that government should be rather small, that capitalism is totally awesome and should be unregulated, that people shold be free to do whatever they want except initiate force against people's life, liberty, or property, stuff like that.


...snip...

Originally libertarianism as a political ideology said nothing in principle about the size of government or the state. However it's interesting to read what the draft addition to the OED would add to the defintion; it seems that the meaning of the term has changed to specifically be concerned about the size of the state especially in the USA:


OED - DRAFT ADDITIONS JUNE 2006
...snip...

Polit. (orig. U.S.). A person who believes the role of the government should be limited to upholding individual rights, and who therefore opposes government regulation of economic or social affairs; an anti-statist. Also (with capital initial): a member of any of various political parties promoting these views.

...snip...

adj.

Polit. (orig. U.S.). Of, designating, or advocating a political philosophy which holds that the role of government should be limited to upholding individual rights, and therefore opposes government regulation of economic or social affairs; anti-statist. Also (with capital initial): of or designating any of various political parties promoting this philosophy.
 
Just beginning to fully take in objectivism; quite familiar with libertarianism

Before the first point, concepts are being discussed; and language is the primary means of practacality toward communication. naturally language is tricky; and some meaning is left behind; perhaps most of the differences that are being discussed are factors of semantics

first, the ideas that are being discussed most likely surfaced over time; and rand and advocates of libertarianism / anarchism were some of the first to articulate and form a coherent theory relating to these ideas.

second, both perspectives deal with life-views; but, the core of both theories is political ideology.

thirdly, the more and more Someone who I met (SWIM) reads Ayn Rand; the more and more he shapes the perspective that she was an opportunist with a brilliant mind. and the libertarian values seems to be much more genuine and down to Earth.

As both philosophies basically focus around the state and the man, politics involves two main spectra.

Orientation toward economic policy
Orientation toward social policy

Political ideologies

Fascism (authoritarian state)
Supposedly higher economic freedom
Low social freedom

Socialism / Communism (authoritarian state)
Low economic freedom
Supposedly higher social freedom

Fascism and communist are two factions of the same ideology; marx, engels, moses hess, communism was funded by the central bankers of germany and wallstreet. Both forms of authoritarian states are run through a dictatorship

Traditional Conservatism - mild version of right-winged authoritarianism
Higher economic freedom
Lower social (individual) freedom

Liberalism - mild version of left winged authoritarianism
Lower economic freedom
Higher social freedom

Most political spectra are depicted on a 2D plot; if a persons thinks about the political spectrum as a sphere. the concepts make more sense. as the political ideologies polarize (on the 2D plot), the outcome of those ideologies are virtually the same:

Tyranny, Oppression, Censorship, etc

Neoconservatism
Lower economic freedom
Lower social freedom
(Resembles Communism and Fascism)

And then there is the all mighty:
Libertarianism
High economic freedom
High social freedom

Libertarianism is the philosophical ideology of a Republic. as the highest principle of a republic is economic freedom and individual liberties, libertarianism is the philosophy that is practiced in a Republic.

And libertarianism and anarchism are very similar

Anarchism pursuits the elimination of the state; and libertarianism pursuits the minimization of the state.

Swim would say that libertarianism is a more refined evolution of anarchism

Libertarians value self-sufficiency and reliance upon one's self. conversely, fascistic, communistic, and neoconservative (authoritarian) forms of government incubate conditions, which gradually force the individual toward the subjugation and reliance upon the state; or in this day and age, reliance upon the monopolies (that are the same elitist groups that pull the strings of the world's superpowers.)

Modern day politics is considered a fascist, corporate dictatorship

Through reliance upon the state, the establishment gains more control over public affairs; and the ruling elite can shape society in such a way that only benefits the elite.

That is why the libertarian philosophy values self-reliance; because when all of society is free and has a equal opportunity to compete in a healthy way; all the people flourish.

Objectivism just seems to be a certain kind of libertarianism, which orients a person's "sense of self" hardcore; venn diagrams and flow charts definitely help.

But again, the more and more Swim examines the philosophy of rand, he is led to perspective that Rand was a brilliant opportunist, who knew the principles of anarchism and libertarism; and put a little twist on them, and prolly earned alot of cash honestly.

These notes only touch upon the fundamentals of the discussed philosophies; yes other difference are able to be distinguished.

+++

The two main philosophies (libertarianism and objectivism) that are being discussed value self-reliance and (for the most part) oppose government interference toward economic enterprises and individual rights.
Authoritarian ideologies (Fascism, Communist) are the antithisis of philosophies such as Objectivism and libertarianism.

Anarchism paved the way for libertarianism. the entirety of libertarianism is encompassed by the philosophy of anarchism; yet, the entirety of anarchism is not fully encompassed by libertarianism. Compared to libertarianism, anarchism is a broader concept.

Libertarianism serves as the bases of objectivism. the entirety of objectivism is encompassed by the philosophy of libertarianism; yet, the entirety of libertarianism is not fully encompassed by objectivism. Compared to objectivism, libertarianism is a wider concept.

Freedom! :)
 
Just beginning to fully take in objectivism; quite familiar with libertarianism

Before the first point, concepts are being discussed; and language is the primary means of practacality toward communication. naturally language is tricky; and some meaning is left behind; perhaps most of the differences that are being discussed are factors of semantics

first, the ideas that are being discussed most likely surfaced over time; and rand and advocates of libertarianism / anarchism were some of the first to articulate and form a coherent theory relating to these ideas.

second, both perspectives deal with life-views; but, the core of both theories is political ideology.

thirdly, the more and more Someone who I met (SWIM) reads Ayn Rand; the more and more he shapes the perspective that she was an opportunist with a brilliant mind. and the libertarian values seems to be much more genuine and down to Earth.

As both philosophies basically focus around the state and the man, politics involves two main spectra.

Orientation toward economic policy
Orientation toward social policy

Political ideologies

Fascism (authoritarian state)
Supposedly higher economic freedom
Low social freedom

Socialism / Communism (authoritarian state)
Low economic freedom
Supposedly higher social freedom

Fascism and communist are two factions of the same ideology; marx, engels, moses hess, communism was funded by the central bankers of germany and wallstreet. Both forms of authoritarian states are run through a dictatorship

Traditional Conservatism - mild version of right-winged authoritarianism
Higher economic freedom
Lower social (individual) freedom

Liberalism - mild version of left winged authoritarianism
Lower economic freedom
Higher social freedom

Most political spectra are depicted on a 2D plot; if a persons thinks about the political spectrum as a sphere. the concepts make more sense. as the political ideologies polarize (on the 2D plot), the outcome of those ideologies are virtually the same:

Tyranny, Oppression, Censorship, etc

Neoconservatism
Lower economic freedom
Lower social freedom
(Resembles Communism and Fascism)

And then there is the all mighty:
Libertarianism
High economic freedom
High social freedom

Libertarianism is the philosophical ideology of a Republic. as the highest principle of a republic is economic freedom and individual liberties, libertarianism is the philosophy that is practiced in a Republic.

And libertarianism and anarchism are very similar

Anarchism pursuits the elimination of the state; and libertarianism pursuits the minimization of the state.

Swim would say that libertarianism is a more refined evolution of anarchism

Libertarians value self-sufficiency and reliance upon one's self. conversely, fascistic, communistic, and neoconservative (authoritarian) forms of government incubate conditions, which gradually force the individual toward the subjugation and reliance upon the state; or in this day and age, reliance upon the monopolies (that are the same elitist groups that pull the strings of the world's superpowers.)

Modern day politics is considered a fascist, corporate dictatorship

Through reliance upon the state, the establishment gains more control over public affairs; and the ruling elite can shape society in such a way that only benefits the elite.

That is why the libertarian philosophy values self-reliance; because when all of society is free and has a equal opportunity to compete in a healthy way; all the people flourish.

Objectivism just seems to be a certain kind of libertarianism, which orients a person's "sense of self" hardcore; venn diagrams and flow charts definitely help.

But again, the more and more Swim examines the philosophy of rand, he is led to perspective that Rand was a brilliant opportunist, who knew the principles of anarchism and libertarism; and put a little twist on them, and prolly earned alot of cash honestly.

These notes only touch upon the fundamentals of the discussed philosophies; yes other difference are able to be distinguished.

+++

The two main philosophies (libertarianism and objectivism) that are being discussed value self-reliance and (for the most part) oppose government interference toward economic enterprises and individual rights.
Authoritarian ideologies (Fascism, Communist) are the antithisis of philosophies such as Objectivism and libertarianism.

Anarchism paved the way for libertarianism. the entirety of libertarianism is encompassed by the philosophy of anarchism; yet, the entirety of anarchism is not fully encompassed by libertarianism. Compared to libertarianism, anarchism is a broader concept.

Libertarianism serves as the bases of objectivism. the entirety of objectivism is encompassed by the philosophy of libertarianism; yet, the entirety of libertarianism is not fully encompassed by objectivism. Compared to objectivism, libertarianism is a wider concept.

Freedom! :)

well put
 
Libertarians are strictly against the war on drugs. Objectivists are agnostic on that issue. It's outside the scope.

The high priests of war are one of the central villains of rand, and objectivism.

The high priests of the environment have become new villains of objectivism.

The high priests of [stick whatever in here] have always been the villains of rand.
 

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