OBE Experiences

[Whydoe]

Does anyone have any information on the topic of "out of body experiences"? It's unfortunate for me, and a good reason for sites like this, that the first 3 people I asked about my experiences all agreed it was out of body. These are people I trusted too.
So, suffice to say that I have the usual occurance of what some would call an out of body, astral projection, whatever you wanna call it experience. It usually happens when I'm over tired, stressed, etc. I've wasted enough time seeking info from the "new age" books (Thank you VERY much Monroe Institute! - NOT). The only thing I've read about is other peoples lucid dreams and what-not - nothing that helped me anyway.
The only real information I've found on this topic that doesn't have anything to do with quackery is the fact that the brain can somehow be awake while the body cannot move. There is a disconnection, resulting in the person experienceing VERY lucid dreams, loud noises, almost complete conscience control over their dreams and where they are in reality. This is information I've found online and info from a couple doctors.
It's all well and good I've decided I'm not actually leaving my physical body and travelling about as a spirit/soul, but it scares me that it is a medical symptom of the brain disconnecting from the body causing paralisis. Isn't there more info on this anywhere? Any brain surgens out there?
BTW, I'm not all together freaked out by all this.... it's usually pretty cool. All the same, more non-new age knowledge about this topic would be great.

 

[cheddar]

It sounds like what you're describing is sleep paralysis. As far as I know, it's not harmful or dangerous and isn't anything to be too worried about:

"Individuals with isolated sleep paralysis need to be assured that they do not have mental illness or serious medical illness. Most of them do not require any other medical treatment. During paralysis episodes, patients may be advised to try moving the facial muscles and moving eyes from one side to the other. This may hasten the termination of the attack.
In severe cases, where attacks take place at least once a week medication may be used.
It is known that stress and sleep disturbances increase the episodes of sleep paralysis. Therefore, to minimize the number of episodes, patients are advised to do the following:
• Get enough sleep
• Reduce stress
• Exercise regularly (but not too close to bedtime)
• Keep a regular sleep-wake schedule
• Some claims that sleeping on the side may help"

http://www.sleepsa.com/paralysiseng.html

 

[Nex]

Whydoe,

I'm not a doctor or professional (except of slackassery) but I just wanted to let you know I've had those weird experiences too. I'm sorry I can't offer any solid info on it. I just haven't really found any.

All I can say is that from personal experience, high levels of stress along with sleep deprivation seem to cause my episodes of sleep paralysis/"OBE"-like dreams. I've also only had these experiences when sleeping flat on my back.

You're very right, there isn't much respectable scientific/medical literature on the subject of the "OBE"-like dreams. I guess it's still kind of a mystery as to what exactly causes that.

 

[Kaylee]

Does anyone have any information on the topic of "out of body experiences"? It's unfortunate for me, and a good reason for sites like this, that the first 3 people I asked about my experiences all agreed it was out of body. These are people I trusted too.
So, suffice to say that I have the usual occurance of what some would call an out of body, astral projection, whatever you wanna call it experience. It usually happens when I'm over tired, stressed, etc. I've wasted enough time seeking info from the "new age" books (Thank you VERY much Monroe Institute! - NOT). The only thing I've read about is other peoples lucid dreams and what-not - nothing that helped me anyway.
The only real information I've found on this topic that doesn't have anything to do with quackery is the fact that the brain can somehow be awake while the body cannot move. There is a disconnection, resulting in the person experienceing VERY lucid dreams, loud noises, almost complete conscience control over their dreams and where they are in reality. This is information I've found online and info from a couple doctors.
It's all well and good I've decided I'm not actually leaving my physical body and travelling about as a spirit/soul, but it scares me that it is a medical symptom of the brain disconnecting from the body causing paralisis. Isn't there more info on this anywhere? Any brain surgens out there?
BTW, I'm not all together freaked out by all this.... it's usually pretty cool. All the same, more non-new age knowledge about this topic would be great.

Hi Whydoe, welcome to the forums!

I've chatted online with a few other people a while back who were convinced that they had OBE experiences.
I did not question them that much about it because they weren't open to that; they were strictly in the chat room to get ideas from other people who thought that they had experienced OBEs on how to induce them.

Just curious, what convinced you that you experienced a very vivid form of dreaming and not an OBE? Did you self-test, did you find the literature convincing, or was it something else?

Hope you don't mind the questions... but I am particular interested in people's experiences when they encounter something unusual and their decision making process on how they decide to label them.

 

[Fengirl]

Hi Whydoe and welcome.

We discussed sleep paralysis and OOBEs quite recently in this thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48181&highlight=sleep+paralysis

Quite a few of us here have experienced what you are talking about. It's not that unusual, but I can totally understand why you were freaked out and scared. It IS a very odd thing to experience.

When it happened to me, I did the same as you and went searching for information. A couple of non-woo books that I found quite interesting:

Lucid Dreaming: The Paradox of Consciousness During Sleep - Celia Green and Charles McCreery (Routledge)

Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming - Stephen LaBerge and Howard Rheingold (Ballantine)

(LaBerge in particular has done a lot of research in the area)

 

[Nucular]

Hi Whydoe, welcome

Sounds like very interesting experiences you have – and it’s not often people who have experiences like that even think to question whether they are exactly what they appear to be or not.

Sleep paralysis is a moderately common experience – more likely to take place, as you’ve noticed, at times of stress etc. But it doesn’t always, or usually, involve OBE elements, so what you’re experiencing sounds a bit more interesting.

But just to answer one of your points – sleep disturbances like these are usually only a problem in and of themselves, unless they’re caused by some organic problem. In other words, it doesn’t mean you’re going mad or something, but sometimes could be a symptom of something else (in the absence of other symptoms, and the fact that as you say it’s stress related, that’s doubtful, but you might want to get checked out by your local wise woman, or failing that, a doctor).

In terms of what the experience actually is, it would help if you would post a bit more about what you’re experiencing. But it sounds like you have the sensation, and perhaps the perception, of your consciousness leaving your body, or being displaced from your body, and… then what?

If that’s mostly it, it does sound like a straightforward OBE type phenomenon (lucky you, I tried for years to make myself do that!), and is probably not too different to a vivid dream, or hypnopompic/hypnogogic hallucination. Although some researchers such as Susan Blackmore have done a lot of work around OBEs – you can access a lot of her papers direct from her site, and googling the types of hallucination will bring up info.

In order to satisfy your curiosity (and ours!), and rule out any actual supernatural event, maybe you could try a few homebaked experiments – getting someone you trust to leave a mystery object somewhere, say, or trying to look in on events elsewhere. If you get any success, we could try some more rigorous things. Feel free to drop by and see me, if your astral body can psychically deduce my whereabouts.

But not when I’m on the toilet.

 

[Interesting Ian]

Does anyone have any information on the topic of "out of body experiences"? It's unfortunate for me, and a good reason for sites like this, that the first 3 people I asked about my experiences all agreed it was out of body. These are people I trusted too.
So, suffice to say that I have the usual occurance of what some would call an out of body, astral projection, whatever you wanna call it experience. It usually happens when I'm over tired, stressed, etc. I've wasted enough time seeking info from the "new age" books (Thank you VERY much Monroe Institute! - NOT). The only thing I've read about is other peoples lucid dreams and what-not - nothing that helped me anyway.
The only real information I've found on this topic that doesn't have anything to do with quackery is the fact that the brain can somehow be awake while the body cannot move. There is a disconnection, resulting in the person experienceing VERY lucid dreams, loud noises, almost complete conscience control over their dreams and where they are in reality. This is information I've found online and info from a couple doctors.
It's all well and good I've decided I'm not actually leaving my physical body and travelling about as a spirit/soul, but it scares me that it is a medical symptom of the brain disconnecting from the body causing paralisis. Isn't there more info on this anywhere? Any brain surgens out there?
BTW, I'm not all together freaked out by all this.... it's usually pretty cool. All the same, more non-new age knowledge about this topic would be great.

Everything I've read indicates that OBE's are completely harmless. Moreover being scared about the experience tends to immediately terminate the expereince.

Nobody really knows what OBEs are. Are they genuinely out of the body? That's an extremely difficult question to answer. On occasions the environment perceived whilst OBEing clearly differs from reality. On the other hand it seems that people sometimes can genuinely gather information by anomalous means of some "remote" location. But is that just remote viewing rather than being "out" of ones body?

Fascinating subject.

 

[Tricky]

For many years I have been a victim of panic syndrome. In my earliest panic attacks, I would sometimes have OBEs where I would be an observer in the room, looking down at myself and others. As I began to learn about the condition, I found that this experience is not uncommon. Since I started medication to alleviate the panic attacks, I no longer have OBEs. This suggests that OBEs are "just your brain acting funny".

 

[Ctype]

Ah, OBE's and Lucid Dreaming, a topic I've been very interested in for a few years now, and the experiences I've had with Lucid dreaming have provided me with several extremely valuable experiences that have strenghted my skepticism and prove to me personally the importance of rational thinking.

Lucid dreaming is a very woo-ish subject, I've participated on Lucid-dreaming related forums (And got very frustrated trying to debunk all the stupid claims everyone made). But from my experiences, there's nothing woo about them at all. I don't really know much about sleep paralysis or the scary experiences that people have with it, also known as "Old hag". It might yeild more information if you googled that term, though I'm sure there will be a myriad of supernatural bullcrap to filter through.

I'm glad you've already "decided I'm not actually leaving my physical body and travelling about as a spirit/soul", because this is exactly what happens. If you read around about OBE's and for example how to induce them, you will find that the method to induce those are virtually the same as trying to induce a lucid dream. Furthermore I've had several "OBE experiences", where luckily I was rational enough to observe calmly, and try 'experiments' - and I found out I was just in a lucid dream, as I could control and manipulate like in a lucid dream where the setting might have been different.
My current working hypothesis about these types of dreams are that the reason people find themselves in their bedrooms in their lucid dreams sometimes (and mistake them for OBE's because of the vividness and accuracy) is because its only logical for your brain to make the assumption that you are in your bedroom, and then conjures up that image in your dream since its logical place to be at night and the last place you can remember beeing before going to sleep.

 

[Nucular]

For many years I have been a victim of panic syndrome. In my earliest panic attacks, I would sometimes have OBEs where I would be an observer in the room, looking down at myself and others. As I began to learn about the condition, I found that this experience is not uncommon. Since I started medication to alleviate the panic attacks, I no longer have OBEs. This suggests that OBEs are "just your brain acting funny".

I've wondered before about the OBE as a dissociative coping strategy.

I've had a few patients since starting training in psychology who have had quite severe episodes of derealisation and depersonalisation (both types of dissociation) as a response to stress, and some of their accounts have sounded reminiscent of OBEs, though not full-blown.

They described variously feeling "out of myself", "displaced", "like I'm watching things unfold from the ceiling" - lots of other related sensations too. At no point have I heard someone in this state actually reporting OBEs, but perhaps this is because they didn't have the language or concepts to interpret it, or decribe it, in that way; or perhaps it's just a less extreme version. Or maybe it's a function of this type of dissociation + superior imagery/visualisation skills.

Elaine Hunter at the Institute of Psychiatry in London has done some work in this area (though not looking at OBEs directly) - I found her model of dissociation as being a progression from the panic state very helpful. So what you said is interesting, and reminiscent as well of what Whydoe describes ("It usually happens when I'm over tired, stressed, etc").

I seem to remember someone suggesting the OBE could be a response to sleep paralysis - panicking when you find you can't move.

But OBE as dissociative response to panic?

 

[Whydoe]

Just curious, what convinced you that you experienced a very vivid form of dreaming and not an OBE? Did you self-test, did you find the literature convincing, or was it something else?

The three people I questioned about it; one was a believer in psychics (her sister is apparently world renowned - whatever) the other a co-worker and someone else who I actually forget. From there I went to books. 10 years ago I believed in all sorts of garbage, superbeings, talking to god through anything other than recreational drugs, etc.
If anyone has read the books by Rob Monroe and actually reads it with a questionable mind will find there is absolutely NOTHING in it regarding any sort of evidence of OBE other than someone elses lucid dreams. So, when I finally talked to someone reputable and not out to make a dollar and it made sense I believed that. Hense, the reason for posting. I find the experiences pretty cool now.
Most of the time the experiences are controllable if only for a short time. Some experiences appear longer (since the brain is in and out of sleep - who knows about the time factor), but most are short. The paralysis is usually accompanied by the following - loud buzzing (almost electronic like the ringing you have in your ears after a loud concert but deeper), feeling of falling/flipping/flouting, sound and sensation of wind and the sense of being pushed or pulled in some direction.
I can understand how people who have experiences like this will seek out information on it and actually believe in OBE. All the factors are there and so many other people have the same experiences. But, if you just keep getting the same answers without proof - ya have to give your head a shake and start somewhere else.

As for other quackery, I truly believed in Ouija boards and MLMs like Amway/Quixtar. I think now they are one in the same.

Thanks for the quick responses. VERY helpful.

 

[casebro]

It6 sounds like there is a large overlap of OBE's and near death experience. In fact, they sound identical. I wonder if the stress of an emergnecy situation can induce a vivid dream of an OBE in the emergency room? But aren't there lots of stories of patients seeing/knowing stuff they couldn't have learned in the ER? Or are these stories just another load of WOO? ( my sister, the Medical ICU RN believes them, but she is Christian too...)

 

[UrsulaV]

I'm a frequent victim of sleep paralysis, and occasionally it involves faux-OBE sensations. False wakings are much more common for me--the experience of thinking you've woken up and are walking around, then realizing that reality does not generally contain whatever weird thing you're seeing, and waking up again, sometimes four or five times in a row, combined with feeling that you're moving your limbs when you really aren't. The OBE thing is a lot less common for me, but apparently reasonably common for people who suffer sleep paralysis. Many sufferers also have extreme anxiety with the experience, although not all (and thankfully, not me--though I do get rather indignant when I can't move..."Bugger! Not sleep paralysis AGAIN!")

Unfortunately, medical information is relatively scarce on the ground for stopping this sort of thing--there isn't a cure, per se, although it seems to be more common during naps, while sleeping on your back, and during times of stress. Assuming you even want to stop it, that is--if you don't find it alarming, might as well enjoy it. (It's worth getting check out just on the off chance that you have sleep apnea or something equally serious, but sleep paralysis itself seems to be both commonplace and harmless.)

It's certainly weird enough an experience that if you don't know what it is, you could mistake it for some kind of supernatural event, though, and part of the reason I no longer particularly believe any report of ghosts, aliens, and OBE that takes place while the person was in bed! There are easy enough tests for "genuine" OBE that you can conduct for your more woo friends, though--toss some dice on top of a high bookcase where you can't see what they read, and the next time you're floating around, go check. If you get past that a coupla times, apply for the million!

 

[Interesting Ian]

It6 sounds like there is a large overlap of OBE's and near death experience. In fact, they sound identical.

An OBE is just one possible element of an NDE. Moreover OBE's during NDE's typically seem much more "real". OBE's apparently vary immensely in how real they seem. Voluntary induced OBEs tend to be rather insipid for example.

 

[Genesius]

For some excellent info on OOBEs, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-of-body_experience

I was particularly fascinated when I first read the info that electrically stimulating the angular gyrus in the pareital lobe causes the subject to experience an OOBE while awake.

It'll never convince the woos, of course. . .

 

[Interesting Ian]

For some excellent info on OOBEs, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-of-body_experience

I was particularly fascinated when I first read the info that electrically stimulating the angular gyrus in the pareital lobe causes the subject to experience an OOBE while awake.

It'll never convince the woos, of course. . .

Convince them of what? It has zero significance. No one denies that our conscious experiences have neural correlates. Poke someones brain and they might experience a vision of a banana. It would be ridiculous to suggest however that this proves there's no such things as bananas, or even to suppose it gives evidence against their existence.

And btw they can't reproduce it anyway. And it was only a very weak insipid obe.

 

[Genesius]

Convince them of what? It has zero significance. No one denies that our conscious experiences have neural correlates. Poke someones brain and they might experience a vision of a banana. It would be ridiculous to suggest however that this proves there's no such things as bananas, or even to suppose it gives evidence against their existence.

And btw they can't reproduce it anyway. And it was only a very weak insipid obe.

Well, they reproduced it three times in the same subject. From here: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/19/health/main522488.shtml

When electrical stimulation was applied, the patient reported seeing herself "lying in bed, from above, but I only see my legs and lower trunk." She also described herself as "floating" near the ceiling.

The Swiss researchers produced the sensation, which lasted for about two seconds, three times in the patient. She reported feelings of lightness and floating about two yards above the bed, close to the ceiling.

I'd say providing a physical mechanism for OBEs goes a long way towards disproving the woo theories. "Hmmm. . . it's either my soul disconnecting itself from my body except for a silver cord, or it's a malfunction in my brain. I wonder which is more likely?"

Whether or not an OBE is "weak" or "insipid" is, of course, just your opinion.

 

[Interesting Ian]

Well, they reproduced it three times in the same subject. From here: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/19/health/main522488.shtml

So far as I am aware they haven't reproduced it in any other subject, and indeed are unable to. You implied that we can reproduce it at will by appropriate stimulation of the brain.

I just get a bit weary of skeptics claiming things, but when you dig a bit deeper one finds that what they have said is misleading at best. Why do it?

I'd say providing a physical mechanism for OBEs goes a long way towards disproving the woo theories.

I entirely disagree. As you yourself implied, most "woos" would not agree with you, and conversely most skeptics would agree with you.

And BTW we do not have a physical mechanism for consciousness and I believe we quite definitely never will. Therefore a fortiori we do not have any mechanism for any particular aspect of consciousness such as OBEs. So what you mean is that we can perhaps reveal the neural correlates for this experience. But obviously this doesn't say anything about the reality of the experience.

"Hmmm. . . it's either my soul disconnecting itself from my body except for a silver cord, or it's a malfunction in my brain. I wonder which is more likely?"

It could easily be both. A normal functioning brain might function in such a way so as to inhibit ones experiences of other realities. A modification of the brain, or becoming detached from the brain, might enable us to come into contact with these other realities.

Whether or not an OBE is "weak" or "insipid" is, of course, just your opinion.

Not my opinion. I don't know, I'm simply repeating what I've read. And I myself have never had an OBE.

 

[Genesius]

It could easily be both. A normal functioning brain might function in such a way so as to inhibit ones experiences of other realities. A modification of the brain, or becoming detached from the brain, might enable us to come into contact with these other realities.

First, let's see some proof that these "other realities" exist.

Granted, the articles I've mentioned don't prove that OBEs don't exist as a spiritual phenomenon. However, as it now stands we have one bit of hard data in the "OBE is an illusion caused by stimulation of one particular area of the brain" camp.

How much hard data do you have in the "OBE is the soul coming loose from the body and roaming around" camp?

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Convince them of what? It has zero significance. No one denies that our conscious experiences have neural correlates. Poke someones brain and they might experience a vision of a banana. It would be ridiculous to suggest however that this proves there's no such things as bananas, or even to suppose it gives evidence against their existence.

Bananas are known to exist, out of body travel is not. One would expect to be able to elicit the memory of something known to exist. When one elicits the memory of something not known to exist, one might get the idea that the thing not known to exist is nothing other than the memory.

I daresay it won't matter how good we get at eliciting some of the these experiences, you will always say that we're just provoking the neural correlates. We await the experiment that shows it's more than just brain play.

~~ Paul