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Ed Obama's speech to the Muslim world

not Iran Israel, it was a link i provided some weeks ago, it was about DNA testing of Pelestinians and where they came from etc.
you know all those things you belive to know about. they actually provided evidence etc, but strangely enough it didnt agree with your fantasy world. so you just ognored it :)

thats fine for me, you are more amusing that way.

I'll try to read the DNA study.
 
So why are you the one who keeps referring back to what happened 60 years ago all the time?

Whatever caused Israel to exist and be put where it is is irrelevant, it's there now, and the ones who keep wining about it are the ones interfering with the peace process.

i didnt, i just pointed out how laughable it is that some demand that one group gets over it and move on, while the other group isnt doing that neither.
 
Yes you just did moments ago, repeatedly. The fact that you can't even realize what you are doing is quite disheartening.

no i just pointed out that i have the impession that something is demanded from one side that isnt to the other side.

actually i agreed with your position that israel belong to where it is now, because it is there now. but dont let that disturb you :)
 
This is very nice, but, nobody in the Middle East who really is in touch with reality believes there will be peace.


I don't know if you're familiar with the concept of "self-fulfilling prophecy", but if you and someone else have beef with each other and both sides think like you replied, than peace is indeed an impossible task and unreal. That's why I said that both sides do have to rethink their positions, because if what you're saying is the reality, Israel will indeed vanish at one point in time - and I doubt that this is what you intend to see happening, would you?
 
History proves them incorrect. The vast majority of Arabs who fled the region as a consequence of the 1948 War were immigrants. They originated from Morocco and Algeria, and, Syria and Egypt. Their delusions that they have some ancient connection with Palestine is farcical, and, part of the Arab neurosis of victimhood and revenge.
....
Oh puhleese! Take this crap to another thread.
 
OK, here are some links with the transcripts of the 2 speeches, the reactions to both and an editorial reflecting Pardalis' view the speeches were the same.

But it's 3:20 in the morning and I'm not going to tackle this until tomorrow night. I shouldn't even bother knowing minds are made up regardless of what I post. OTOH, if I find the speeches were the same, I will say so. That would be the content, of course. There's no way Bush's arrogant attitude toward the rest of the world is the same as Obama's 'we are all equals' attitude.

Obama's speech

Bush's speech

EDITORIAL: Obama gives a Bush speech

Bush speech sparks US-Egypt tension

Bush Gets Cold Shoulder in Egypt

Egypt praises Obama as welcome change from Bush
 
Oh puhleese! Take this crap to another thread.

Sorry to disillusion you with historical fact. But, yes, the majority of so-called Palestinians, by 1948, were immigrants, who gravitated to the area attracted by economic opportunities and an improved standard of living made possible by Zionist immigrants. Winston Churchill, who was present in Palestine, marveled at the industriousness of the Zionists in transforming the desolate desert and draining the malaria-diseased swamps, and, establishing an industrial base. At the same time, Churchill bemoaned the lackadaisical behavior of the Arab population. He remarked that if only Arabs lived in Palestine, for the following 1,000 years the land would remain barren and the economy unproductive.

Before 1880, the inception of Jewish immigration to Palestine, Arabs were leaving Palestine due to depressed economic conditions. Between 1880 and 1947, a period of heavy Jewish immigration, that trend had reversed, and, the Arab population had skyrocketed, in many areas by as much as 400%. New industries, such as the construction of a railroad, required new skills that Bedouin farmers and peasants could not offer, and, with the increased need for human resources, the British turned their backs on illegal immigration of Arabs, not checking visas. Those immigrants arrived from as far as northern Africa and as nearby as Syria and Egypt.
 
Sorry to disillusion you with historical fact. But, yes, the majority of so-called Palestinians, by 1948, were immigrants, who gravitated to the area attracted by economic opportunities and an improved standard of living made possible by Zionist immigrants.
Before 1880, the inception of Jewish immigration to Palestine, Arabs were leaving Palestine due to depressed economic conditions. Between 1880 and 1947, a period of heavy Jewish immigration, that trend had reversed, and, the Arab population had skyrocketed, in many areas by as much as 400%. .

Lies....lies...and more lies.

The Israeli-Arab population between 1948 and 2009 has skyrocketed by 900%!!!! (200,000 to 1.2 million) With zero immigration to Israel.

Arab natural growth rates in Palestine between 1922 and 1947 are IDENTICAL to their natural growth rates in Israel during the following 60 years. As well as being similar to those in some neighboring Arab states.

Explain that.....Princeton grad.

I'm starting to suspect you are pulling an "Ultima1".
 
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Since it seems Skeptigirl has decided not to bother reading the threads she involves herself in anymore, let me repost my links, which I posted days ago:
And that is exactly George W. Bush's speech in 2005:
http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/wm778.cfm

I wonder which part of the speech made them euphoric, the "We're not at war with islam" part , or the part about women's rights in the Middle East, or where he reminded Iran of its obligations towards the non-proliferation treaty.

Oh, right...

It turns out all these years the Left agreed with Bush!


What is exactly the new image?

Obama talked about the fight against radical Islam, so did Bush ☑
Obama talked about how the US is not at war with Islam, so did Bush ☑
Obama talked about Iran being bound by the non-proliferation treaty, Bush ditto ☑
Obama talked about how Israel is not going away, obviously Bush had the same view ☑
Obama talked about a two state solution, Bush too ☑
And if anyone thinks him saying that the Israeli settlements were illegal was an improvement, here are past presidents saying about the same thing:
http://www.cmep.org/documents/settlements.htm ☑

Except maybe the tone which was more friendly, and except maybe about Guantanamo and torture, the content wasn't really that much different.
 
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IMHO Obama comes across as much more trustworthy and sincere makes all the difference. For what its worth I am not much of a Bush basher but I think the world view of Obama is much more positive than that of Bush so yes while Obama's speech may have been along similar lines of Bush, Obamas speech had more of an impact.

Acting skills are very important for the job. Bush was rubbish at it.
 
Sorry to disillusion you with historical fact. But, yes, the majority of so-called Palestinians, by 1948, were immigrants, who gravitated to the area attracted by economic opportunities and an improved standard of living made possible by Zionist immigrants. Winston Churchill, who was present in Palestine, marveled at the industriousness of the Zionists in transforming the desolate desert and draining the malaria-diseased swamps, and, establishing an industrial base. At the same time, Churchill bemoaned the lackadaisical behavior of the Arab population. He remarked that if only Arabs lived in Palestine, for the following 1,000 years the land would remain barren and the economy unproductive.

Before 1880, the inception of Jewish immigration to Palestine, Arabs were leaving Palestine due to depressed economic conditions. Between 1880 and 1947, a period of heavy Jewish immigration, that trend had reversed, and, the Arab population had skyrocketed, in many areas by as much as 400%. New industries, such as the construction of a railroad, required new skills that Bedouin farmers and peasants could not offer, and, with the increased need for human resources, the British turned their backs on illegal immigration of Arabs, not checking visas. Those immigrants arrived from as far as northern Africa and as nearby as Syria and Egypt.
THIS IS OFF TOPIC! And, I'm sorry, but I've reported it because there are threads people who want to rehash this can go to to do so.
 
Since it seems Skeptigirl has decided not to bother reading the threads she involves herself in anymore, let me repost my links, which I posted days ago:
Is it necessary to add this whiny crap or do you think you could just discuss the issues?
 
I wonder which part of the speech made them euphoric, the "We're not at war with islam" part , or the part about women's rights in the Middle East, or where he reminded Iran of its obligations towards the non-proliferation treaty.


Oh, right...

It turns out all these years the Left agreed with Bush!
I see you were being a git by not saying you had a link to the transcript when I asked you for one. Why should I comb through 8 pages of posts to find these? It was easier to hunt again for them on Google. This is the kind of behavior that makes me not want to bother with this discussion.
 
What is exactly the new image?

Obama talked about the fight against radical Islam, so did Bush ☑
Obama talked about how the US is not at war with Islam, so did Bush ☑
Obama talked about Iran being bound by the non-proliferation treaty, Bush ditto ☑
Obama talked about how Israel is not going away, obviously Bush had the same view ☑
Obama talked about a two state solution, Bush too ☑
And if anyone thinks him saying that the Israeli settlements were illegal was an improvement, here are past presidents saying about the same thing:
http://www.cmep.org/documents/settlements.htm ☑

Except maybe the tone which was more friendly, and except maybe about Guantanamo and torture, the content wasn't really that much different.
Like it has been pointed out to you, just talking about the same topic doesn't mean the same thing was said about it. You are posting reruns here.


But thank you for giving us a check list to compare points with.
 
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Pard: "Obama talked about the fight against radical Islam, so did Bush."

Quotes are from the speeches, bolding is mine.

Obama:
Violent extremists have exploited these tensions in a small but potent minority of Muslims. The attacks of September 11, 2001 and the continued efforts of these extremists to engage in violence against civilians has led some in my country to view Islam as inevitably hostile not only to America and Western countries, but also to human rights. All this has bred more fear and more mistrust....

...For we have learned from recent experience that when a financial system weakens in one country, prosperity is hurt everywhere. When a new flu infects one human being, all are at risk. When one nation pursues a nuclear weapon, the risk of nuclear attack rises for all nations. When violent extremists operate in one stretch of mountains, people are endangered across an ocean. When innocents in Bosnia and Darfur are slaughtered, that is a stain on our collective conscience. (Applause.) That is what it means to share this world in the 21st century. That is the responsibility we have to one another as human beings.

Bush:
We must stand with the people of Iraq and Afghanistan and other nations in the region fighting against al Qaeda and other extremists. Bin Laden and his followers have made clear that anyone who does not share their extremist ideology is fit for murder. That means every government in the Middle East is a target of al Qaeda. And America is a target too. And together, we will confront and we will defeat this threat to civilization.

We must stand with the good and decent people of Iran and Syria, who deserve so much better than the life they have today. Every peaceful nation in the region has an interest in stopping these nations from supporting terrorism. And every peaceful nation in the region has an interest in opposing Iran's nuclear weapons ambitions. To allow the world's leading sponsor of terror to gain the world's deadliest weapon would be an unforgivable betrayal of future generations. For the sake of peace, the world must not allow Iran to have a nuclear weapon.


Obama explains why Americans have reacted to the extremists.

Bush tells everyone they should be against the extremists. Obama later goes on to describe the reason everyone should be against the extremists but he puts it in a different context. Bush's comments are clearly one of dictating what people should do. Obama's comments are not the same.
 
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Pard: "Obama talked about how the US is not at war with Islam, so did Bush"

Quotes are from the speeches, bolding is mine.

Obama:
The relationship between Islam and the West includes centuries of coexistence and cooperation, but also conflict and religious wars. More recently, tension has been fed by colonialism that denied rights and opportunities to many Muslims, and a Cold War in which Muslim-majority countries were too often treated as proxies without regard to their own aspirations. Moreover, the sweeping change brought by modernity and globalization led many Muslims to view the West as hostile to the traditions of Islam....

...So long as our relationship is defined by our differences, we will empower those who sow hatred rather than peace, those who promote conflict rather than the cooperation that can help all of our people achieve justice and prosperity. And this cycle of suspicion and discord must end.

I've come here to Cairo to seek a new beginning between the United States and Muslims around the world, one based on mutual interest and mutual respect, and one based upon the truth that America and Islam are not exclusive and need not be in competition. Instead, they overlap, and share common principles -- principles of justice and progress; tolerance and the dignity of all human beings.

Bush:
There are people who claim that democracy is incompatible with Islam. But the truth is that democracies, by definition, make a place for people of religious belief. America is one of the most -- is one of the world's leading democracies, and we're also one of the most religious nations in the world. More than three-quarters of our citizens believe in a higher power. Millions worship every week and pray every day. And they do so without fear of reprisal from the state. In our democracy, we would never punish a person for owning a Koran. We would never issue a death sentence to someone for converting to Islam. Democracy does not threaten Islam or any religion. Democracy is the only system of government that guarantees their protection.

Whoa! Bush is totally criticizing many Islamic countries there. "We would never do what you do."

Obama describes the truth in a very not condescending way. The cycle of discord and mistrust that must end means we need to do that. Obama isn't just telling them to do it.

There is a huge contrast here in these speeches. It's mind boggling.
 
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