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Obama's Pastor: U.S. to Blame for 9/11

See, this is the same thing I heard eight years ago. "Sure, Bush doesn't know who the President of Kazakhstan is. But look at the experienced team he has working for him: Rumsfeld, Cheney, Powell. You think Bush is really going to have serious input on foreign policy?"

Experience matters. I don't want a politican who is going to be pushed around by unelected officials with an agenda I didn't get to vette.

Then you better find a new candidate, period. Not one of the three is skilled in all aspects. What experience did Hillary have in Economic matters prior to running? Her FOREIGN experience seems to have been GROSSLY exaggerated.

We all know McCain hasn't got a clue about economics.

So go try to get Bloomberg on board again.

TAM:)
 
So it is time to realize that and change our approach. Bill Clinton at least was going in the right direction. GW Bush has taken us back to the worst of our time in history.

We need to acknowledge it and change it. It is as simple as that.

Really? the worst time in our history? Really? I think you may want to take your own advice and read up a little. Start with the Great Depression and the Civil War, I think you will quickly see that things are much better today than they were then.
 
Which is why, for now, Obama is still the guy I'll vote for. I was taking issue with your defense of him, not with him.

Fair enough.

My defense of him, is in recognition that ALL OF THE CANDIDATES will have their areas where they will be HEAVILY ADVISED by their advisers, while other areas it will be their (the candidates) thoughts, their ideas, that weigh heavy.

My defense was that given all of them have such areas of inexperience, the experience issue becomes a non-issue for me. For me (Don't forget I am an observer only), what is the most important, is who is best going to mend the damaged reputation the USA has in the world, who is going to make the USA, once again, a LEADER BY EXAMPLE, rather than a LEADER BY FORCE!

TAM:)
 
Really? the worst time in our history? Really? I think you may want to take your own advice and read up a little. Start with the Great Depression and the Civil War, I think you will quickly see that things are much better today than they were then.
You've taken "worst time" out of the context I used it in. Supporting corrupt dictators and other forms of government with little concern for human rights has been a repeating pattern of this government for at least a century. Our military and political actions have favored corporate use of many countries' natural resources. A few get rich. Corporations operate with impunity and give little if anything back to the majority of the population. In the mean time we encourage or at least look the other way when human rights abuses are rampant. Labor leaders are assassinated and opposition to the government is quashed with terrorist tactics.

This occurred in the Middle East with Standard Oil and BP divying up the oil resources in the early part of the 20th century. It occurred in Argentina and Chile in the 60s and 70s. It occurred in the Dominican Republic in the 50s and in Central America continuing through the 80s with United Fruit as the beneficiary of our policies. We took over the French's similar involvement in Indochina which led to the Vietnam War. And we continue to do it in Africa in Nigeria with Shell Oil as the beneficiary.

Those are just the countries and incidents I am most familiar with. There are plenty more.

If you look at the laws Brenner wrote for the Iraqi people in the first year after we invaded, if you look at the corruption and cronyism Bush's administration promoted, you will find the trend of ignoring human rights while promoting corporate benefits, you will see the pattern revived.
 
We may agree more than either of us realizes. Perhaps we weigh different variables with different values. Don't make assumptions about the weights I apply to different variables and I won't second guess the weights you apply. I do think the history of the US's interventions is pretty significant. OTOH, I think the oppression of women and insanity of the Islamic extremists is also a significant contributor to the current extremist violence.

I didn't mean to make assumptions about your specific rationale. My original point was my take on what Rev. Wright said, and the concept of 'blowback' in general. I am well aware of much of our past and current government shenanigans overseas and consider some to be completely reprehensible, but none of which provides justification or causation for terrorist attacks.

One can always point to an event, trace an intervention staged in that country 20 or 30 years ago by or backed by the US, and then call it blowback. But to do this removes the falsifiability of the concept. How can blowback be disproved?

How do you think the oppression of women by Fundamentalist societies contributes to the violence by extremists? I'm not sure I agree, but I'd like to hear what you think.
 
Obviously, Ichabod, the people blown up by a suicide bomber would not be the people which bear any responsibility for the actions of members of the US government now or in the past. But you are switching between the reason for terrorism (meaning how it developed) and the reason for terrorism (meaning is it justified). Those are completely different things.
 
Obviously, Ichabod, the people blown up by a suicide bomber would not be the people which bear any responsibility for the actions of members of the US government now or in the past. But you are switching between the reason for terrorism (meaning how it developed) and the reason for terrorism (meaning is it justified). Those are completely different things.

No, I specifically included both causation and justification.


Could you answer my previous question in regards to female oppression by Fundamentalist societies and how they contribute to extremist violence?
 
No, I specifically included both causation and justification.
I think we both agree there is no justification.


Could you answer my previous question in regards to female oppression by Fundamentalist societies and how they contribute to extremist violence?
I'm not an expert on this matter. I have heard there is a direct correlation between oppression of women and other violence in societies. But there are so many variables and which came first the violence or the oppression or do they just go hand in hand?

I will say however that unless these idiots give up that atrocious situation, they will never be able to join the rest of the modern world. Either there will be years of conflict, isolation, or they have to give it up. We certainly aren't going to allow them to integrate that oppression into communities outside of the countries it is a part of. And with the oil situation, isolation is probably out of the question.


Oppression of women is rampant in parts of Africa as well. But where modern societies are mixed with traditional tribal societies, there is more hope for integration and gradual change. Where the groups are more isolated, be it by county or region, a lot more of the repression is formalized.

I think it is a serious and largely unaddressed problem.
 
Then you better find a new candidate, period. Not one of the three is skilled in all aspects. What experience did Hillary have in Economic matters prior to running? Her FOREIGN experience seems to have been GROSSLY exaggerated.

We all know McCain hasn't got a clue about economics.

So go try to get Bloomberg on board again.

TAM:)

We're such fools. The answer has been in front of our faces this whole time: Lyndon LaRouche. What could go wrong?
 
I thought this article by Roland Martin on the context of the Wright "9/11" speech was interesting...

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/03/21/the-full-story-behind-rev-jeremiah-wrights-911-sermon/

Here is the controversial quote from the wright speech, with context...

“We took this country by terror away from the Sioux, the Apache, Arikara, the Comanche, the Arapaho, the Navajo. Terrorism.

“We took Africans away from their country to build our way of ease and kept them enslaved and living in fear. Terrorism.

“We bombed Grenada and killed innocent civilians, babies, non-military personnel.

“We bombed the black civilian community of Panama with stealth bombers and killed unarmed teenage and toddlers, pregnant mothers and hard working fathers.

“We bombed Qaddafi’s home, and killed his child. Blessed are they who bash your children’s head against the rock.

“We bombed Iraq. We killed unarmed civilians trying to make a living. We bombed a plant in Sudan to pay back for the attack on our embassy, killed hundreds of hard working people, mothers and fathers who left home to go that day not knowing that they’d never get back home.

We bombed Hiroshima. We bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon and we never batted an eye.

“Kids playing in the playground. Mothers picking up children after school. Civilians, not soldiers, people just trying to make it day by day.

“We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff that we have done overseas is now brought right back into our own front yards. America’s chickens are coming home to roost.

“Violence begets violence. Hatred begets hatred. And terrorism begets terrorism. A white ambassador said that y’all, not a black militant. Not a reverend who preaches about racism. An ambassador whose eyes are wide open and who is trying to get us to wake up and move away from this dangerous precipice upon which we are now poised. The ambassador said the people we have wounded don’t have the military capability we have. But they do have individuals who are willing to die and take thousands with them. And we need to come to grips with that.”

TAM:)
 
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You've taken "worst time" out of the context I used it in. Supporting corrupt dictators and other forms of government with little concern for human rights has been a repeating pattern of this government for at least a century. Our military and political actions have favored corporate use of many countries' natural resources. A few get rich. Corporations operate with impunity and give little if anything back to the majority of the population. In the mean time we encourage or at least look the other way when human rights abuses are rampant. Labor leaders are assassinated and opposition to the government is quashed with terrorist tactics.

This occurred in the Middle East with Standard Oil and BP divying up the oil resources in the early part of the 20th century. It occurred in Argentina and Chile in the 60s and 70s. It occurred in the Dominican Republic in the 50s and in Central America continuing through the 80s with United Fruit as the beneficiary of our policies. We took over the French's similar involvement in Indochina which led to the Vietnam War. And we continue to do it in Africa in Nigeria with Shell Oil as the beneficiary.

Those are just the countries and incidents I am most familiar with. There are plenty more.

If you look at the laws Brenner wrote for the Iraqi people in the first year after we invaded, if you look at the corruption and cronyism Bush's administration promoted, you will find the trend of ignoring human rights while promoting corporate benefits, you will see the pattern revived.

What non-corrupt dictators should we be supporting? How about when we went into stop North Korea when it was attacked? How about when we helped supported the Afghan rebels when the Russians invaded.? How about that time we helped England and France with thier little german problem? How about how we support the people of Taiwan and keep the Chinese from invading? How about how we helped Japan and Germany get back on thier feet after WWII? How about all the chairitable donations we make even to countries were they hate us? Yeah the USA really is terrible.
 
Yes yes, the japanese were behind 911. Rev. Wright's comments make so much more sense now. It was payback for Hiroshima.

I flatly reject that somehow the greater context of those remarks makes them any smarter or less inflammatory.
 
What non-corrupt dictators should we be supporting? How about when we went into stop North Korea when it was attacked? How about when we helped supported the Afghan rebels when the Russians invaded.? How about that time we helped England and France with thier little german problem? How about how we support the people of Taiwan and keep the Chinese from invading? How about how we helped Japan and Germany get back on thier feet after WWII? How about all the chairitable donations we make even to countries were they hate us? Yeah the USA really is terrible.
Well I'm glad you have seen the light, but pls stop throwing out all those other irrelevent points out like you just did. Historical things like that can only be used when ripping on America (or whitey) because, as you pointed out and we all know, it/they are evil. We should never get into any other country's business! That's all the rest of the world is saying.

:boggled:

PS I still think Obama may (repeat, may) indeed be the best candidate out there, despite growing misgivings about where his head is really at. But the fact that so many people are applying such blatant pretzel logic to this whole situation and refusing to even consider similar misgivings makes me even more scared/repulsed by our society than I was - something I scarcely even thought possible.
 
Yes yes, the japanese were behind 911. Rev. Wright's comments make so much more sense now. It was payback for Hiroshima.

I flatly reject that somehow the greater context of those remarks makes them any smarter or less inflammatory.

flatly reject based on what?

Clearly, the preacher was making the point that from his perspective, the atrocities of war committed by the USA, the acts of agression, etc... have, in his mind, contributed to the hatred that caused the jihadists to attack America on 9/11.

More so, his Hiroshima comment was meant to put focus on the magnitude of life lost in a single incident, and the different reactions had from each.

I personally think he is wrong, in that the A-bombs were used during war, as an act of war, and actually in the end may have saved more lives through ending the war...

TAM:)
 
What non-corrupt dictators should we be supporting? How about when we went into stop North Korea when it was attacked? How about when we helped supported the Afghan rebels when the Russians invaded.? How about that time we helped England and France with thier little german problem? How about how we support the people of Taiwan and keep the Chinese from invading? How about how we helped Japan and Germany get back on thier feet after WWII? How about all the chairitable donations we make even to countries were they hate us? Yeah the USA really is terrible.
Since none of the incidents and countries you list here have any thing remotely related to the human rights abusing dictators and corrupt governments I listed, I would say you've built yourself a lot of straw men here to play with.

You have little insight that the vast majority of that financial aid to foreign countries is given for things our government perceives as directly benefiting us, mainly military aid often to prop up a government that abuses human rights in its country.

How about you look at the history of our involvement in Pinochet's tyranny in Chile, Nicaragua's Somoza, The Dominican Republic's Trujillo, Haiti's succession of tyrants, Argentina's military government responsible for thousands and thousands of "the disappeared", El Salvador's and Guatemala's tyrannical governments, the Vietnamese government we supported during the war, the Shaw of Iran, and Indonesia's Suharto. That should give you a well rounded sampling of the kind of activities I am talking about.

But don't waste your time trying to claim these were fights to stop the communist dominoes from falling. Revolutionaries only turned to communism after we stood on the side of corporate assets and profits over a fair deal and human rights. While a corporation clearly has the right to make a profit and protect its assets, the typical corporate pattern was to make a deal with a corrupt dictator for the countries' resources, then those corporations would claim no responsibility for how the poor in those countries were treated.

So when labor leaders trying to unionize workers were murdered, heck, that was good for business. And should those workers take any action, just call it a communist uprising, ignore the fact that the people were desperate and had few other options and were grossly mistreated, call in the US government to provide military aid to the dictator, and there you go.

The "red scare" may or may not have been legit. But, the shortsighted decisions to back brutal dictators was not the only option. And this is where the misinformed US public gets it wrong. A better option would have been to promote a fair deal for workers, a fair price paid for the resources so that some of the profits could be directed back into the countries' infrastructure, and refusal to allow terrorist tactics to be used against millions of people. Had we done that, we would have had millions more middle class citizens all over the world driving a healthy world economy. We would have had to deal with limited resources and more pollution earlier on, but we wouldn't have had nearly as much war and terrorism.

The reason we never paid attention to human rights abuses was due to who had the power and who had the government's ear. Why should a corporation worry about poverty stricken populations? That was up to the countries' governments.



Henry Kissinger is an example of how one ignores such horrendous events and sleeps well at night. Kissinger is the poster child but hardly unique in the US government in the last century. I present the following as an example, not as some comprehensive evidence.

Human Rights Watch, 2002 - Argentina
In August, Argentine Judge Rodolfo Canicoba sent a letter rogatory to the State Department requesting a deposition by former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger to aid the judge's investigation of Operation Condor. In addition, French judge Roger Le Loire requested Kissinger's cooperation with judicial inquiries into the "disappearance" in Argentina of French nationals. Although de-classified documents showed that Kissinger was informed about Operation Condor, he did not contribute any information to the French or Argentine courts. The Washington Times on August 1 quoted an unnamed White House source as saying that the courts' demands were "unjust and ridiculous."

Spanish judge seeks Kissinger
MADRID, Spain (CNN) -- Former U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger could be called as a witness to an investigation into alleged human rights crimes committed by former South American military dictatorships.

According to a copy of a court order obtained by CNN, Spanish judge Baltasar Garzon issued an order on Wednesday.

The order asks British authorities to permit the questioning of Kissinger in London, where he is due to attend a conference on April 24....

Garzon is believed to want to question Kissinger over his alleged involvement in "Operation Condor," a scheme by former military dictatorships in Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Paraguay and Uruguay to persecute and eliminate their opponents during the 1970s and 1980s.

Why the law wants a word with Kissinger
He won the Nobel Peace Prize and his name was once a byword for diplomacy. But Henry Kissinger may yet be called to account for the murder and mayhem the US orchestrated in the 1970s, writes Vanity Fair columnist Christopher Hitchens.
Hitchens wrote a book on the subject of Kissinger's contributions to a number of atrocities.
 
...

I flatly reject that somehow the greater context of those remarks makes them any smarter or less inflammatory.
If that follows from Billdave2's straw men he claimed was my position, just be clear I have not claimed disagreement with your comments here either.



Oh my, I have agreed with you twice now. That is quite shocking. ;)
 
flatly reject based on what?

Clearly, the preacher was making the point that from his perspective, the atrocities of war committed by the USA, the acts of agression, etc... have, in his mind, contributed to the hatred that caused the jihadists to attack America on 9/11.

More so, his Hiroshima comment was meant to put focus on the magnitude of life lost in a single incident, and the different reactions had from each.

I personally think he is wrong, in that the A-bombs were used during war, as an act of war, and actually in the end may have saved more lives through ending the war...

TAM:)
Maybe I am misinterpreting corplinx here but I thought his comment merely said Wright's comments were needlessly inflammatory regardless of the context, and it's hard to deny they weren't smart if Wright cares about the effect of the comments on Obama's campaign.
 
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Which is why, for now, Obama is still the guy I'll vote for. I was taking issue with your defense of him, not with him.

I applaud wildly. I will probably end up voting for Obama if he gets the Democratic nomination, but I do it as the best of an indifferent lot, not in expectations of a political messiah which is what some of his more fervid supporters seem to be expecting.
I particularly find annoyning their belief that he is somehow different and nobler in his political tactics then the other candidates, which I find silly.
 
Maybe I am misinterpreting corplinx here but I thought his comment merely said Wright's comments were needlessly inflammatory regardless of the context, and it's hard to deny they weren't smart if Wright cares about the effect of the comments on Obama's campaign.

Given he made the comments in 2001, I suspect at the time Obama's "Campaign" was a non-entity...lol

TAM:)
 

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