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Obama Proposes Preventative Detention for Terrorists Who Can't Be Tried

Yes I don't see how anyone could think this is a good idea. They're either a POW taken on a battlefield, and can be held until the war ends, or they're a suspected criminal who must be tried or released.

Preventative Detention in the way described amounts to a blatant violation of basic human rights.

I propose we hold them until the war ends. Which in this case, means there are no countries with religious leaders continuing to espouse the moral duty to mass murder Jews and Americans.

It seems to, umm, cross borders and be a quasi-super-state rather than a single, standard government. Even overthrowing the local governments, which we've done twice now, doesn't seem to be working, even in those countries, vs. this supra-national quasi-government.
 
It's amazing how scared many Americans in a country of 300,000,000 seem to be of a few 100 maltreated prisoners, whose guilt of a criminal offense can't even be proven.

On the one hand we have Americans who feel Iraqis should be grateful to the US for bringing them democracy and freedom, even though Iraq has turned into a warzone in the process. With the argument that democracy and freedom are worth sacrifice, and anyone who disagrees deserves no respect.
Ok.
On the other hand, many of those same Americans now wish to violate these prisoner's fundamental rights (innocent until proven guilty, and the right to a fair trial), because their release in the US would make them feel unsafe. Scared of a few 100 people, in a population of 300,000,00.

Disgusting cowards.

Good post. It's ridiculous isn't it. But then scaremongering against an external, fabricated, threat was the teachings of Leo Strauss and fully implemented by the neocons and their ilk.

Only an idiot would believe that freedom and democracy was spread to Israq and only a completely deluded moron would believe that The reasons to invade and commit mass murder in Iraq was about the spread of Freedom and Democracy.
 
So if we release them in your hometown, you won't raise a fuss? Well, that's one problem solved.
If it was my country that put these people in Guantanamo and maltreated them, then yes. Fortunately, my government was smart enough not to do so. You break the jar, you own it. It's called: "taking responsibility for your own actions". On a related note, I support both nuclear power and building a nuclear powerplant near my hometown.
 
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In general, I'm not going to criticize Obama for merely considering a certain course. I'll hold off until he actually chooses a course I find objectionable. In this case, I'll make an exception - this preventive detention garbage is bad enough that I think even considering it is lousy. So I am disappointed, but if he ends up rejecting this idea, I won't consider it a Big Deal. If he actually tries to implement it, I hope he gets smacked down, either by Congress (not very likely) or by the Supreme Court. And I hope the 8-1 majority opinion is written by Sotomayor, J.
 
Wasn't Obama also supposed to take all the guns and make Ayers the Attorney General and force everyone to be gay while getting numerous abortions?
 
Does the past teach us nothing?

In response to the violence in Northern Ireland in the early 1970s, the UK introduced internment - essentially rounding up terrorism suspects in camps without recourse to any judicial process. In a manner similar to the U.S. government after 9/11, the UK authorities at the time showed a deep lack of confidence in the courts, especially in the capacity of juries to confront the problem of terrorism and to persevere in an environment of intimidation (and also sympathy for many of the accused). Hundreds were rounded-up and interned.

In part because the internees were overwhelmingly Catholics, the internment system was seen as biased and was very controversial. Internees were interrogated without trials and there were many accusations of torture. The system eventually collapsed under its own weight when a British Commission ruled that internment was contrary to British domestic law.

The European Court of Human Rights later determined that the interrogation techniques were not torture but “amounted to a practice of inhuman and degrading treatment.” In retrospect, most scholars believe the internment policy accomplished little beyond helping the IRA with recruitment.

And yet we see a similar approach here. Not enough evidence? Change the legal framework. They've got dodgy eyes, swarthy skin, strange churches. THat's good enough for us, guvn'r.

:mad:
 
Linus Richard,

In general, I'm not going to criticize Obama for merely considering a certain course. I'll hold off until he actually chooses a course I find objectionable. In this case, I'll make an exception - this preventive detention garbage is bad enough that I think even considering it is lousy.

Agreed


INRM
 
The European Court of Human Rights later determined that the interrogation techniques were not torture but “amounted to a practice of inhuman and degrading treatment.” In retrospect, most scholars believe the internment policy accomplished little beyond helping the IRA with recruitment.
That is all very interesting, Architect; I was not aware of this. I'd like to hear more: What happened to the camps? What became of those imprisoned? Were the internees compensated in any way? Did they become/continue being a menance to society? And so on.
 
Also from the article linked in the OP:



I don't get this, are they afraid they are going to escape? There are many convicted terrorists already in American prisons.
There are at least 2problems beyond the NIMBY issue. If they are transferred a supermax facility they would be in much worse conditions than they are under in GITMO. They would be in 23 hr/day isolation, no visitors, limited ability to practice their religion etc. The Red Cross would have a fit along with the ACLU, and every other HR organisation. If they are placed in a general population prison they would be in danger from other inmates or conversely in a position to radicalise other inmates.
 
That is all very interesting, Architect; I was not aware of this. I'd like to hear more: What happened to the camps? What became of those imprisoned? Were the internees compensated in any way? Did they become/continue being a menance to society? And so on.

You could fill a good sized dissertation with that information.

Firstly, they were sent to prisons rather than camps. Once internment ended, they were either charged (unusual) or released. No, they weren't compensated AFAIK. And terrorism in Northern Ireland continued to be a major problem until there was a political solution just a few years ago, so I think it's safe to say that internment did bugger all to help the cause of peace.
 
Why on earth would these people be released into the USA? They're not Americans. Send em home.
 
I propose we hold them until the war ends. Which in this case, means there are no countries with religious leaders continuing to espouse the moral duty to mass murder Jews and Americans.

It seems to, umm, cross borders and be a quasi-super-state rather than a single, standard government. Even overthrowing the local governments, which we've done twice now, doesn't seem to be working, even in those countries, vs. this supra-national quasi-government.


Not really. Both the Afghanistan and Iraq occupations are over - each country has their own government. The Afghani and Iraqi captives should be turned over to their respective governments (actually I understand this has already happened, and only foreigners were ever held at Guantanamo Bay anyway).

Any citizens of coalition nations should be turned over to their home nations to be tried for treason or whatever that government feels like trying them for (it would be nice to see some of these countries actually grow the balls to do something like that). That leaves only the citizens of officially neutral nations. Try them with war crimes (third parties to a conflict) in a military tribunal and lock 'em up or send them home.

Anyone snatched at random around the world or handed over by bounty-hunting locals should quietly be returned in the middle of the night, same way they were captured, with a wad of cash in their pocket.

Let's all just forget this ugly mess happened and start again.

What I find so truly bizarre about this entire escapade is how complex and muddy it all good. The Laws of War are pretty damn clear on how all of this should have played out. It's not exactly rocket science.
 
Any citizens of coalition nations should be turned over to their home nations to be tried for treason or whatever that government feels like trying them for (it would be nice to see some of these countries actually grow the balls to do something like that).
Two remarks to that. First, those still in GITMO are there because the US prosecution considers they have too little evidence for a successful prosecution. So why would, say, a British or a NZ prosecutor decide to prosecute them? They probably would arrive at the same conclusion.

Second, an acquittal would mean a near-certain claim of the prosecuted on the prosecuting state for the time spent in detention. Would the USA stand guarantee for that money (i.e., the part pertaining to their detention in GITMO)? It's a bit like a subprime mortgage. :-)

Anyone snatched at random around the world or handed over by bounty-hunting locals should quietly be returned in the middle of the night, same way they were captured, with a wad of cash in their pocket.

Let's all just forget this ugly mess happened and start again.
Amen to that.
 
Once again, Obama has the choice of doing it the way "human rights advocates" suggest or the Bush way, and he's chosen the correct course:

I'll give Obama credit; he's much more of a pragmatist than I realized. Preventative detention seems like a solid tool for use in the war on terror, and I am glad to see President Bush's methods in that struggle being validated by the new president.
The more important question is: why is a terrorist taken prisoner at all?

I recall a number of orders we operated under, a while back, that were worded as such: kill or capture.

Kill's actually easier. The only reason to capture one is the potential to extract info to find and kill the others, or at least disrupt and degrade their networks and operations.

In the concept Bush proposed, what was going on vis a vis terror is in fact "war" versus something else. In that framework, kill or capture makes sense only if you intend to exploit for your own purposes those whom you capture. By mixing the two, and deciding to have war crimes trials, or any trials at all, IMO he shot himself in the foot, conceptually. (Sure, war on terror is a nebulous concept to start with, but if the "war" method had been better adhered to, some of this later nonsense might have been avoided. Might.)

Those who keep trying to force feed this matter into a criminal only context ignore, time and again, that for forty years, treating terrorism discretely as a crime not only was ineffective, but it was In No Way a deterrent.

Note Architect's point: the change from internment to prison and trials
Didn't End the Activity

Architect makes another point: political change often helps reduce the tensions that spur terrorist activity, for a while at least. For NI that might have been sweetness and light all around, but not every political change that allegedly would slow that down is palatable:

Or do you want your wife wearing a Burkha?

The initial idea behind Bush's War on Terror was that terrorist organizations, and any nation who gave them shelter, support, and cover, were going to be up against the entire power of the US and its various allies. (See Lybia's 2003 thawing for an example of how that was effective in achieving other objectives.)

The decision to conflate, for the convenience of political momentum being there, War on Terror with the old problem of "What to do with this running political sore that is Iraq" was a departure from the original idea of discarding the profoundly ineffective "treat it only as a crime" concept and maintaining focus on that mission within the original scope.

That decision to expand the "war on terror" to Iraq rendered WoT virtually meaningless. I have a medal that says I fought in the War on Terror. Oh joy.

That loss of focus, for my money, continues to color and confuse the issue.

Separating any operations in Iraq from the general "War on Terror" may not have allowed the war to get approved in Congress, not gonna derail there. But doing so would not have changed the thorny issues raised at Gitmo, a loophole exploitation attempt that does not seem to have worked.

But keeping the scope limited might have made the problem more manageable. Might. It was still going to be a political problem to solve, since the media battlefield and the use of trials as political footballs is an old technique harnessed by terrorist organizations.

As I have suggested before, keeping the prisoners taken in Afghanistan in Afghanistan, in a detention facility, as bait for attempted rescue would have made more logistical and political sense. Part of the purpose of such bait is to lure, and kill, not capture, even more.

But nobody asked me.

DR
 
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Not really. Both the Afghanistan and Iraq occupations are over - each country has their own government.
That's a bizarre way to describe the current state of play.
Any citizens of coalition nations should be turned over to their home nations to be tried for treason or whatever that government feels like trying them for
Makes sense to me.
That leaves only the citizens of officially neutral nations. Try them with war crimes (third parties to a conflict) in a military tribunal and lock 'em up or send them home.
OK, not a bad idea.

Anyone snatched at random around the world or handed over by bounty-hunting locals should quietly be returned in the middle of the night, same way they were captured, with a wad of cash in their pocket.

There are some cases that seemed to scream for just such a resolution.

DR
 
Shouldn't they be sent back to the legal systems in their own countries?
 
Shouldn't they be sent back to the legal systems in their own countries?
In some cases, it would seen the rational decision. However, look at the so called problem with China and the Uighars.

See also those sent home who are released, and then go back to the old terrorist game. (The numbers are not great, but then, it does not take great numbers of terrorists to wreak a good deal of havoc.)

DR
 

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