Obama a Marxist? Seriously?

[Gurdur]

BAC is really getting desperate. McCain must be fumbling badly.

 

[Upchurch]

Here's another Obama association:

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=27547

How does that constitute an association?

 

[BeAChooser]

How does that constitute an association?

Did he give the money back?

 

[Upchurch]

Did he give the money back?

BeAChooser, do you understand the difference between a contribution and an association?

 

[gdnp]

Here's another Obama association:

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=27547

Shocking: an activist that wants to end the Iraq war supports a candidate who wants to end the Iraq war.

Perhaps you could give some more detail about how these people are actually associated with Obama.

The Ayers video claims they served together on some boards--presumably with many other people--and Ayers held a fundraiser/meet the candidate dinner at his house when Obama was starting out. Hard to make the allegation of "mentor" on such tenuous connections. I myself have served on more than a few boards, and often they are put together with people with different backgrounds, constituencies, and agendas. I would hate to be held responsible for the beliefs or actions of everyone who I had ever served on a board with.

Anything more substantial?

 

[davefoc]

What in tarnation happened to Lieberman? He seemed teh regular Democrat before Iraq. But after Iraq, he does not seem content in just having a difference of opinion in regards to Iraq with the Dems, which I had no problem with. He now seems hell-bent on attacking Dems over everything else under the sun too! I am starting to dislike the man.

Lieberman is a Jew first and a Democrat second. America fighting wars in the Middle East is good for Israel.

Today Iraq, tomorrow Iran.

I think there is some truth to MaGZ's response. It seems to me to be reasonable if you are a religious believer that your first loyalty would be to your religion. In fact, almost every successful politician in the United States would be forced to declare that his first loyalty is to God and then he would need to explain how he would follow the law of the land and not put his religion above it.

I am sure that MaGZ is wrong in that being a Jew does not mean that you are part of some sort of monolithic Jewish Israeli hawk coalition. That is simply belied by the fact that most Jews are Democratic voters and although both US parties vote relentlessly to support Israel, the party for you if you are an Israeli hawk is the Republican Party and yet most Jews aren't Republicans.

But I think he is right about what is the primary driver for Lieberman. Lieberman is an Israeli hawk and he will support the people he sees as supporting the strongest military, economic and international support for Israel. Lieberman is like most other politicians in that he is willing to change positions and loyalties when he sees it in the best interest of the causes he sees as most important. In pursuit of his support for Israel Lieberman has protected the Bush administration from senate investigations, he has teamed up with the anti-semitical Hagee and now he supports McCain a man that otherwise would be at odds with many of Lieberman's previous positions.

I think there are people that participate in this forum that will vote for McCain for reasons similar to the ones that that drive Lieberman's support for McCain.

And as an aside Obama's support of Lieberman had a lot more to do with Obama doing what he saw was in his political interest than in any sort of noble effort to support the guy whose views and principals he admired the most. I don't see that Obama has any great ethical advantage over Lieberman on this one although as an Obama supporter I am far more willing to look past Obama's little foibles than Lieberman's.

 

[MaGZ]

There is no doubt that "Frank" is Frank Marshall Davis. My sister, Beth, confirmed it. She is the daughter of Frank Marshall Davis. I am Mark Kaleokualoha Davis, son of Frank Marshall Davis. You may read my analysis of the disinformation campaign on the my.barackobama.com blog under Kaleokualoha. (Sorry, but I cannot post the link here.)

So your dad wasn’t a Stalinist but a Leninist, now I think I understand.
Feel free to provide us with any other details on the Obama /Davis relationship. If you think the historical record needs to be corrected then by all means correct it.

BTW welcome to the forum.

 

[Gurdur]

Kaleokualoha, you should be aware of a couple of things:

MaGZ hates Jews and blacks, and sees Communist Jews under every bed.

BAC (BeAChooser) just hates Democrats, apparently regardless of skin colour, well, at least he's never shown any discrimination on that score, but he sees Communist Democrat traitors under every bed.

Do welcome to our little nest here.

 

[Brainster]

Since the question has come up about what Obama says about "Frank" in Dreams from My Father, I did a little checking. My copy is an ebook, so the page numbers won't help.

Frank first appears when Obama is about 11. Barack talks about how his grandpa's black poker and bridge buddies would hardly ever talk to him:

There was one exception, a poet named Frank who lived in a dilapidated house in a run-down section of Waikiki. He had enjoyed some modest notoriety once, was a contemporary of Richard Wright and Langston Hughes during his years in Chicago-Gramps once showed me some of his work anthologized in a book of black poetry. But by the time I met Frank he must have been pushing eighty, with a big, dewlapped face and an ill-kempt gray Afro that made him look like an old, shaggy-maned lion. He would read us his poetry whenever we stopped by his house, sharing whiskey with Gramps out of an emptied jelly jar. As the night wore on, the two of them would solicit my help in composing dirty limericks. Eventually, the conversation would turn to laments about women.

There's not much more about Frank in that section other than this:

The visits to his house always left me feeling vaguely uncomfortable, though, as if I were witnessing some complicated, unspoken transaction between the two men, a transaction I couldn't fully understand.

Frank next pops up immediately after Obama's grandmother's famed "racist" incident with the aggressive panhandler at the bus stop, as Barack drives over to talk to him. He says that it had been about three years since he'd last seen Frank, so clearly this is a special visit in response to the story his grandmother had told him.

Frank opened his eyes. "What I'm trying to tell you is, your grandma's right to be scared. She's at least as right as Stanley is. She understands that black people have a reason to hate. That's just how it is. For your sake, I wish it were otherwise. But it's not. So you might as well get used to it."

Frank also tells some weird story that I suppose is intended to back up Barack's earlier comment about "a transaction I couldn't fully understand". Frank says that Obama's grandfather could come over to his house and drink whiskey and nod off in the chair, but that Frank wouldn't dare reciprocate:

"See, that's something I can never do in his house. Never. Doesn't matter how tired I get, I still have to watch myself. I have to be vigilant, for my own survival."

So it certainly appears that Obama valued Frank's counsel after a troubling incident involving race. It's clear from the two passages that Obama did look to Frank as something of a mentor on what it was like to be black. On the other hand, it had been three years since they'd last met, so like all teens he was paying far more attention to his peers than his elders.

Obama later discusses Frank's reaction to his going away to college. Frank basically says that he's going to college to get trained to abandon his people and become "a credit to his race". But when Obama asks whether he means that he shouldn't go to college:

Frank's shoulders slumped, and he fell back in his chair with a sigh. "No. I didn't say that. You've got to go. I'm just telling you to keep your eyes open. Stay awake."

Given that much of Dreams from My Father is filled with Obama's determination not to check his blackness at the door, it seems clear that this was advice that he took to heart, although (he admits) not initially as he was seduced by Los Angeles (where he started college).

My take? Obama clearly considered Frank to be a mentor; not about leftist politics but about race. He does state on several occasions that he found Frank to be a little stuck in the past, so like all of us he took the advice that he found applicable to his own situation and ignored that part that he found old-fashioned.

 

[gdnp]

My take? Obama clearly considered Frank to be a mentor; not about leftist politics but about race. He does state on several occasions that he found Frank to be a little stuck in the past, so like all of us he took the advice that he found applicable to his own situation and ignored that part that he found old-fashioned.

I guess you and I must have a different definition of "mentor". I see a mentor as someone who guides you on a regular basis, helps with schoolwork, holds frequent discussions, advises you on what college to attend and what courses to take, etc. Not and old guy who was a friend of your fathers who you see once in 3 years. I don't see any evidence that Obama had that kind of ongoing relationship with Davis. Listening to poems and composing dirty limericks doesn't quite cut it.

 

[Brainster]

I guess you and I must have a different definition of "mentor". I see a mentor as someone who guides you on a regular basis, helps with schoolwork, holds frequent discussions, advises you on what college to attend and what courses to take, etc. Not and old guy who was a friend of your fathers who you see once in 3 years. I don't see any evidence that Obama had that kind of ongoing relationship with Davis. Listening to poems and composing dirty limericks doesn't quite cut it.

Here's a little more context to the part of the book where Frank is introduced, where he spells out why he's introducing him:

Away from my mother, away from my grandparents, I was engaged in a fitful interior struggle. I was trying to raise myself to be a black man in America, and beyond the given of my appearance, no one around me seemed to know exactly what that meant.

My father's letters provided few clues. They would arrive sporadically, on a single blue page with gummed-down flaps that obscured any writing at the margins. He would report that everyone was fine, commend me on my progress in school, and insist that my mother, Maya, and I were all welcome to take our rightful place beside him whenever we so desired. From time to time he would include advice, usually in the form of aphorisms I didn't quite understand ("Like water finding its level, you will arrive at a career that suits you"). I would respond promptly on a wide-ruled page, and his letters would find their way into the closet, next to my mother's pictures of him.
Gramps had a number of black male friends, mostly poker and bridge partners, and before I got old enough not to care about hurting his feelings, I would let him drag me along to some of their games. They were old, neatly dressed men with hoarse voices and clothes that smelled of cigars, the kind of men for whom everything has its place and who figure they've seen enough not to have to waste a lot of time talking about it. Whenever they saw me they would give me a jovial slap on the back and ask how my mother was doing; but once it was time to play, they wouldn't say another word except to complain to their partner about a bid.

There was one exception, a poet named Frank (see quoted section in earlier post)....

It is very clear that in context, Obama looks at Frank as somebody who taught him how to be a black man in America.

 

[gdnp]

It is very clear that in context, Obama looks at Frank as somebody who taught him how to be a black man in America.

This is a "mentorship" relationship?

He would read us his poetry whenever we stopped by his house, sharing whiskey with Gramps out of an emptied jelly jar. As the night wore on, the two of them would solicit my help in composing dirty limericks. Eventually, the conversation would turn to laments about women.

Where is the evidence of an ongoing relationship: All we get is a brief quote about the grandmother "racist" incident and a discussion about college that clearly suggests that Frank had not been intimately involved in Obama's decision.

 

[BeAChooser]

BeAChooser, do you understand the difference between a contribution and an association?

Would it be ok with you if Obama accepted money from al-Qaeda?

 

[BeAChooser]

Kaleokualoha, you should be aware of a couple of things:

BAC (BeAChooser) just hates Democrats

Not true. I don't "hate" them. In fact, as I've pointed out previously on this forum, quite a few of my friends are Democrats. But there is no denying that the leadership of the Democrat party is extremely corrupt and duplicitous. There is no denying that most of those who vote Democrat are woefully uninformed as to the extent of this corruption and duplicity. That's thanks to a media whose members mostly vote Democrat. I also think that Obama and Democrats are extremely naive where foreign policy and threats to the United States are concern. This naivety has been proven by history over and over. So Hate has nothing to do with it, Gurder. Hate is an irrational emotion. My dislike of the current Democrat party and its leaders is entirely rational. Based on facts. That none of you really seem able to dispute.

 

[gdnp]

Not true. I don't "hate" them. In fact, as I've pointed out previously on this forum, quite a few of my friends are Democrats. But there is no denying that the leadership of the Democrat party is extremely corrupt and duplicitous.

I deny it

There is no denying that most of those who vote Democrat are woefully uninformed as to the extent of this corruption and duplicity.

They are uniformed because it is a figment of your imagination.

That's thanks to a media whose members mostly vote Democrat.

Could be true. Maybe the members of the media are more intelligent than average. Well, except for the ones that work for Fox.

I also think that Obama and Democrats are extremely naive where foreign policy and threats to the United States are concern.

I can't deny that you believe it, but I deny that it is true.

This naivety has been proven by history over and over.

I deny it.

So Hate has nothing to do with it, Gurder. Hate is an irrational emotion. My dislike of the current Democrat party and its leaders is entirely rational. Based on facts. That none of you really seem able to dispute.

I, and others, have disputed it repeatedly

 

[SezMe]

Would it be ok with you if Obama accepted money from al-Qaeda?

Evasion noted. Please answer Upchurch's question.

 

[Brainster]

This is a "mentorship" relationship?

Where is the evidence of an ongoing relationship: All we get is a brief quote about the grandmother "racist" incident and a discussion about college that clearly suggests that Frank had not been intimately involved in Obama's decision.

Frank comes up again and again in the book:

It was into my father's image, the black man, son of Africa, that I'd packed all the attributes I sought in myself, the attributes of Martin and Malcolm, DuBois and Mandela. And if later I saw that the black men I knew-Frank or Ray or Will or Rafiq-fell short of such lofty standards; if I had learned to respect these men for the struggles they went through, recognizing them as my own-my father's voice had nevertheless remained untainted, inspiring, rebuking, granting or withholding approval. You do not work hard enough, Barry. You must help in your people's struggle. Wake up, black man!

Mentor, role model, call it what you will. I don't think it's a big deal, because as I have said several times there is no indication in the book that Obama was taking his political attitudes from Frank. But it is clear that they had an ongoing relationship, however off-again on-again. It is clear that Obama sought and valued his advice. It is abundantly clear in the book (it's the major theme) that the advice Frank gave him about not abandoning his people was one of the bedrock principles of Obama's adulthood, leading to his career as a community organizer.

But then, why am I arguing this point with somebody who obviously has not read the book?

 

[BeAChooser]

Shocking: an activist that wants to end the Iraq war supports a candidate who wants to end the Iraq war.

Shocking, a candidate who takes money from someone who admits wanting to "undermine" American soldiers and doesn't return it.

The Ayers video claims they served together on some boards--presumably with many other people--and Ayers held a fundraiser/meet the candidate dinner at his house when Obama was starting out. Hard to make the allegation of "mentor" on such tenuous connections.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/04/obamas_terrorist_connection.html

About Obama's Terrorist Acquaintance

... snip ...

Would Obama be friendly with someone who actually bombed abortion clinics and defends that conduct? Not likely. But he is friendly with William Ayers, a leader of the radical Weather Underground, which in the 1970s carried out numerous bombings, including one inside the U.S. Capitol.

... snip ...

Obama minimized his relationship by acknowledging only that he knows Ayers. But they have quite a bit more of a connection than that. He's appeared on panels with Ayers, served on a foundation board with him and held a 1995 campaign event at the home of Ayers and his wife, fellow terrorist Bernardine Dohrn. Ayers even gave money to one of his campaigns. It's not as though Ayers and Dohrn have denied or repudiated their crimes. After emerging from years in hiding, they escaped federal prosecution because of government misconduct in gathering evidence, but they don't pretend they were innocent. In 2001, Ayers said, "I don't regret setting bombs. I feel we didn't do enough."

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0208/8630.html

1995, State Senator Alice Palmer introduced her chosen successor, Barack Obama, to a few of the district’s influential liberals at the home of two well known figures on the local left: William Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn.

... snip ...

I can remember being one of a small group of people who came to Bill Ayers’ house to learn that Alice Palmer was stepping down from the senate and running for Congress,” said Dr. Quentin Young, a prominent Chicago physician and advocate for single-payer health care, of the informal gathering at the home of Ayers and his wife, Dohrn. “[Palmer] identified [Obama] as her successor.”

... snip ...

Neither Ayers nor the Obama campaign would describe the relationship between the two men. Dr. Young described Obama and Ayers as “friends,” but there’s no evidence their relationship is more than the casual friendship of two men who occupy overlapping Chicago political circles and who served together on the board of a Chicago foundation. But Obama’s relationship with Ayers is an especially vivid milepost on his rise, in record time, from a local official who unabashedly reflected a very liberal district to the leader of national movement based largely on the claim that he can transcend ideological divides."

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives2/2008/04/020358.php

When Illinois State Senator Alice Palmer decided to retire in 1995, she hand-picked local left-winger Barack Obama as her successor. In order to introduce Obama to influential liberals in the district, she held a function at the home of Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn. This was, really, the beginning of Obama's political career, and it linked him forever with Ayers and Dohrn, with whom, as his campaign has acknowledged, he continues to have a friendly relationship.

In last week's Pennsylvania debate, Barack Obama was finally asked about his friendship with, and the political support he has accepted from, Ayers and Dohrn. Obama replied that Ayers had done reprehensible things forty years ago, when Obama was eight years old, and scoffed at the idea that Ayers's ancient history could be relevant. That was disingenuous, of course, given Ayers's 2001 regrets.

It turns out that we don't have to go back as far as 2001 to find that Obama's friends are as unrepentant as ever. Just last year, Ayers and Dohrn attended a reunion--no kidding--of what must have been the tiny remnant of SDS members who still haven't figured out that they were wrong about everything. Listen to what Bill Ayers, who hosted Barack Obama's first fundraiser, has to say about the United States. Not when Obama was eight years old, but in 2007: (BAC - go listen to it, gdnp)

...snip ...

Barack Obama has declined to repudiate or distance himself from his neighbors, supporters and friends, Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn. There is a certain consistency of perspective among Obama's friends and mentors, which can be summed up in Jeremiah Wright's memorable phrase: "God damn America."

In fact, irony of ironies, how about I just repeat the words of Hillary Clinton during one of her debates with Obama:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/HughHewitt/2008/04/17/airing_the_ayers-obama_connection?page=2

... I also believe that Senator Obama served on a board with Mr. Ayers for a period of time, the Woods Foundation, which was a paid directorship position. And if I'm not mistaken, that relationship with Mr. Ayers on this board continued after 9/11 and after his reported comments, which were deeply hurtful to people in New York, and I would hope to every American, because they were published on 9/11 and he said that he was just sorry they hadn't done more. And what they did was set bombs and in some instances people died."

 

[gdnp]

From your own citation:

there’s no evidence their relationship is more than the casual friendship of two men who occupy overlapping Chicago political circles and who served together on the board of a Chicago foundation.

Obama served on the board of the Woods fund of Chicago. Did Obama choose the members of the board? Why are you not protesting to the head of the Woods fund for choosing Ayers to be on their board, rather than Obama? Many foundations attempt to have a broad representation of viewpoints on their boards so as to appeal to as large a segment of the population as possible. Are you suggesting that the only appropriate action for Obama would be to resign if there is another member on the board with whom he disagrees? It sure will make it difficult to continue to serve on congressional committees.

There is a difference between having a "friendly relationship" and being "friends". There are many people with whom I have a "friendly relationship" with whose politics I disagree. There are many others whose politics I do not know and do not care to know. I do not have my acquaintances vetted before the FBI before I invite them to dinner.

 

[SezMe]

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0208/8630.html

In that quote you forgot to add your own highlights to this phrase:

but there’s no evidence their relationship is more than the casual friendship of two men who occupy overlapping Chicago political circles and who served together on the board of a Chicago foundation.

Being a skeptical crowd, we usually find evidence to be persuasive. "No evidence" can also be quite influential.

ETA: Damn that fast-fingered gdnp.