NY Times editorial bombshell

[kellyb]

We're not in a crisis, though.

You don't think having a bunch of people in the admin working to sabotage the president's agenda, stealing papers off his desk, etc is a crisis?

 

[theprestige]

If the Op Ed writer is telling more truth than lies, or Woodward is, then it depends on whether you consider having an incapable president a crisis.

"That's my secret, Cap. My presidents are always incapable." Bruce Banner, probably.

If I thought incapable presidents were a crisis, I wouldn't be voting at all. What keeps me up at night is the prospect of a president who's capable and wrong.

 

[kellyb]

"That's my secret, Cap. My presidents are always incapable." Bruce Banner, probably.

If I thought incapable presidents were a crisis, I wouldn't be voting at all. What keeps me up at night is the prospect of a president who's capable and wrong.

Well, all hail the deep state steady state, then.

 

[kellyb]

What worries me is when the steady state is wrong and there's no democratic control over them.

 

[jimbob]

"That's my secret, Cap. My presidents are always incapable." Bruce Banner, probably.

If I thought incapable presidents were a crisis, I wouldn't be voting at all. What keeps me up at night is the prospect of a president who's capable and wrong.

Really? Incapable and capricious and unable to remember their really bad radical policy changes if they are distracted?

Can you imagine Obama, GW Bush, Clinton or HW Bush being so out of control?

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

What worries me is when the steady state is wrong and there's no democratic control over them.

Yes, I must admit that I'm genuinely surprised by the number of people who are seemingly fine with there being no accountability, no democratic election of the people actually running the country, no way of knowing who the people actually running the country are, and no checks or balances at all. If it were my country I'd think that that's a bad thing. I'd think that having my right to choose who I'm governed by taken away was a bad thing.

Seems that, for many, it's actually completely fine.

 

[kellyb]

Yes, I must admit that I'm genuinely surprised by the number of people who are seemingly fine with there being no accountability, no democratic election of the people actually running the country, no way of knowing who the people actually running the country are, and no checks or balances at all. If it were my country I'd think that that's a bad thing. I'd think that having my right to choose who I'm governed by taken away was a bad thing.

Seems that, for many, it's actually completely fine.

I suspect it's so strange and disturbing that people tend to just be in denial about the whole thing. I mean, it's impossible to even talk about frankly without sounding kind of like a lunatic.

 

[LSSBB]

Yes, I must admit that I'm genuinely surprised by the number of people who are seemingly fine with there being no accountability, no democratic election of the people actually running the country, no way of knowing who the people actually running the country are, and no checks or balances at all. If it were my country I'd think that that's a bad thing. I'd think that having my right to choose who I'm governed by taken away was a bad thing.

Seems that, for many, it's actually completely fine.

Wait. Trump was elected. And it's HIS STAFF. Every President has staff that is not elected, and if they manipulate him, that's his problem with his staff, is it not?

Do we think Presidents know everything and do everything like puppetmasters, in their own administration?

I'm reminded of the genius humor behind this classic SNL script.

https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/president-reagan-mastermind/n9509

 

[d4m10n]

Yes, I must admit that I'm genuinely surprised by the number of people who are seemingly fine with there being no accountability, no democratic election of the people actually running the country, no way of knowing who the people actually running the country are, and no checks or balances at all. If it were my country I'd think that that's a bad thing. I'd think that having my right to choose who I'm governed by taken away was a bad thing.

We don't have good evidence for the proposition that there is a shadowy cabal running the country behind the scenes. I doubt whether we could come up with even one important decision or policy this mysterious group has put into action.

 

[acbytesla]

Yes, I must admit that I'm genuinely surprised by the number of people who are seemingly fine with there being no accountability, no democratic election of the people actually running the country, no way of knowing who the people actually running the country are, and no checks or balances at all. If it were my country I'd think that that's a bad thing. I'd think that having my right to choose who I'm governed by taken away was a bad thing.

Seems that, for many, it's actually completely fine.

Wait. Trump was elected. And it's HIS STAFF. Every President has staff that is not elected, and if they manipulate him, that's his problem with his staff, is it not?

Do we think Presidents know everything and do everything like puppetmasters, in their own administration?

I'm reminded of the genius humor behind this classic SNL script.

https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/president-reagan-mastermind/n9509

Sorry Squeegee. But the premise is entirely false. The accountability of the workers is to the leaders who are elected and the legislation that has been enacted. If a civil servant overstep their authority, you can petition the government either through the courts or to elected officials to resolve your grievance.

Their are millions of decisions that must be decided every day and every government's tasks are carried out by unelected workers. Most elected officials only are involved with the big picture. What bothers me is how so much legislation these days is actually written by lobbyists.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

We don't have good evidence for the proposition that there is a shadowy cabal running the country behind the scenes. I doubt whether we could come up with even one important decision or policy this mysterious group has put into action.

I can name some that they have vetoed by refusing to obey orders, or stealing relevant paperwork.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

The accountability of the workers is to the leaders who are elected and the legislation that has been enacted.

How is stealing papers from Trump so that he won't sign them being accountable to Trump? How is refusing to obey Trump's orders about major policy decisions in the (seemingly correct) belief that he will simply forget that he gave them being accountable to Trump?

These are people who are making major policy decisions that only the president is authorised to make.

You think they're accountable? Tell me how to hold them to account. I'd imagine that step one would be to identify who they actually are. So...who are they?

 

[d4m10n]

I can name some that they have vetoed by refusing to obey orders, or stealing relevant paperwork.

I remain skeptical.

 

[autumn1971]

Yes, I must admit that I'm genuinely surprised by the number of people who are seemingly fine with there being no accountability, no democratic election of the people actually running the country, no way of knowing who the people actually running the country are, and no checks or balances at all. If it were my country I'd think that that's a bad thing. I'd think that having my right to choose who I'm governed by taken away was a bad thing.

Seems that, for many, it's actually completely fine.

It’s not fine at all, but we know that republicans in both houses are also enemies of the Constitution and democracy in general. There is never going to be an impeachment, much less a conviction, or a 25th challenge because every republican “elected” official at state and federal level is a power-hungry proto-fascist.

There are only extreme and unpleasant options left if one wishes to preserve the Republic.

 

[Mumbles]

Wait. Trump was elected. And it's HIS STAFF. Every President has staff that is not elected, and if they manipulate him, that's his problem with his staff, is it not?

Do we think Presidents know everything and do everything like puppetmasters, in their own administration?

I'm reminded of the genius humor behind this classic SNL script.

https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/president-reagan-mastermind/n9509

Again, the way it's supposed to work is that cabinet members give the president advise and council. A smart president will listen when he has a thought, and the resident expert says "Here's why that's a stupid idea that will not work." And at the very least, we should expect that (s)he'll be upset, but trust the advise when it's time to decide. And it's possible that every choice has a potential downside. In fact, the easy decisions are the ones that the president shouldn't be bothered with - those choices can be made by other people.

And if the president is completely incapable of taking "your idea is stupid, here's why it'll make things worse" as advise, then it's up to the congress to say "Yep, he's incapable, toss him out". They are supposed to get rid of him (or her).

Our problem is, the US president is incapable, and our GOP-led congress is okay with it. In the long term, "they all go down in disgrace" is he only viable option. But for someone on Dolt45's cabinet, or a senior congressional advisor, what do you do, right now? When even if you invoke the 25th, the senate is too cowardly to reach the obvious conclusion that the US president is unfit for duty?

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I remain skeptical.

Well, there's 3 independent sources making the claims, one of which claims to know it first-hand, one of which claims 2 sources of their own, and one of which claims multiple sources (and happens to be a very well-respected journalist who specifically writes books about presidents). It may not be true, but I wouldn't dismiss it quite as easily as you appear to be.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

It’s not fine at all[...]

Some are saying it is.

 

[kellyb]

We don't have good evidence for the proposition that there is a shadowy cabal running the country behind the scenes. I doubt whether we could come up with even one important decision or policy this mysterious group has put into action.

Well, that's because they're shadowy. LOL They (generally) only talk about what they're doing under the conditions of anonymity, and we're only hearing about the tiny bit they choose for us to hear.
So, who knows?

 

[acbytesla]

How is stealing papers from Trump so that he won't sign them being accountable to Trump? How is refusing to obey Trump's orders about major policy decisions in the (seemingly correct) belief that he will simply forget that he gave them being accountable to Trump?

These are people who are making major policy decisions that only the president is authorised to make.

You think they're accountable? Tell me how to hold them to account. I'd imagine that step one would be to identify who they actually are. So...who are they?

Trump can fire them. He's good at that. Your complaint is with him, the people that support him and the voters that elected him. He's responsible for them.

 

[kellyb]

I remain skeptical.

Woodard has released the stolen paper. https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/06/politics/trump-woodward-book-trade/index.html