NY AG files civil fraud suit against Trump

[Bob001]

Slate has more detail and I gotta say the case is sounding thinner and thinner.
.....

Pretty basic summary here:

For that matter, why would he claim that a group of rent-stabilized apartments he owned were worth 65 times their actual value, according to James? Why would he claim his tower at 40 Wall Street was worth $524 million, when a contemporaneous professional appraisal set its value at roughly $200 million? Why would he claim that the Trump Organization had cash on hand that James said did not exist? Why would he assert, or boast, that the name “Trump” — just the gold-plated name itself — added huge amounts to the valuations of other properties?

According to the lawsuit, the practical reason was to fraudulently represent to banks that he and his company had more assets than they truly did. That allowed him to obtain loans at lower interest rates and insurance coverage with lower premiums, the suit alleges, amounting to an estimated $250 million in unwarranted benefits during the decade between 2011 and 2021. James’s suit seeks to recover that money from the firm — and to punish Trump, his daughter Ivanka, his sons Donald Jr. and Eric, and the Trump Organization by severely limiting, if not eliminating, their ability to do business in the state of New York.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/09/21/letitia-james-trump-marketing/

If he lied about the value of his assets -- up or down -- to borrow more money, to pay less interest, to pay lower taxes or reduce his insurance premiums, that's pretty clearly fraud with identifiable victims. And the AG's hundreds of pages apparently have pretty specific details about years of such conduct.

ETA: The actual suit -- 222 pages -- is on-line.
https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000183-60c5-da48-a3e3-e0e5115d0000

 

[Segnosaur]

Keep in mind when reading this that I am anti-Trump, and want him gone from politics.

Could be something, could be nothing. I do note that none of the entities supposedly defrauded by Trump have sued him themselves, which is certainly interesting. As far as the appraisal BS goes, be serious. No lender relies on a borrower's appraisal (this was the business I worked in for 40 years), any good loan officer can do a desk valuation in 20 minutes that won't be more than 10% off the $10,000 appraisal that an MAI will provide.

Ditto with the tax assessors. They generally know what they are doing and of course there is always the assessed valuation versus the market valuation amusement when dealing with tax assessors. These are somewhat dark waters but suffice to say that big property owners have staff to handle tax appeals and shockingly they always appeal to have their taxes reduced.

First of all, even if an appraiser or tax assessor could do proper valuations, its still illegal to submit faulty values to them. (At the very least, you would want to ensure things don't get improperly valued if the bank or tax official is having a bad day and lets a bad value slip through.)

Secondly, I think you are overestimating the ability of those parties to do their assessments. Some officials are overworked, and the information they need may be hard to get. (After all, if Trump said "This property I own is a dump", how does a tax official evaluate it? They probably don't have access to private business records of the Trump organization or other entities, its doubtful they would have the resources to send inspection teams, etc.)

Remember, Weisselberg (Who was, you know a Trump Organization officer) has been convicted of tax fraud going back years. If its so easy to identify fraud on a day to day basis, why wasn't he caught sooner?

...again none of his lenders have sued him over these deals.

Again, probably not all that big of a deal.

As others have suggested, it could be a case of wanting to avoid embarassment. And if they did sue, the case would be tied up in courts for years and possibly cost more in legal fees than they would get in a settlement.

 

[Brainster]

I am sure your apologetics will provide some solace to the fact that your guy lost...but I will go with the idea that the AG, who I believe is objectively more knowledgeable in these matters, has all her ducks in a row.

My guy? I don't support Trump, I want him gone one way or another. But as the old saying goes, when you shoot at the king, you'd better kill him. From what I've read so far, this gun seems likely to misfire.

 

[Bob001]

.....
Secondly, I think you are overestimating the ability of those parties to do their assessments. Some officials are overworked, and the information they need may be hard to get.
....

A basic tool in real estate is comparables. An appraiser or assessor looks at the actual sale prices of similar properties in the same place. Every property is unique, but when Trump claimed values wildly out of line with the market, that's more than a difference of opinion.

 

[Bob001]

My guy? I don't support Trump, I want him gone one way or another. But as the old saying goes, when you shoot at the king, you'd better kill him. From what I've read so far, this gun seems likely to misfire.

Why do you insist on the that? This is a civil suit, not a criminal trial. Proving that Trump benefited from lying about matters of fact really shouldn't be hard. He lost on his scam foundation and he lost on his scam Trump U. Why would this be different?

It will be entertaining -- and compelling -- when the prosecution plays the videos of Trump and his little boy taking the Fifth hundreds (literally) of times at their depositions. The jury will likely conclude that if they recognize their own criminal culpability, they sure knew they were up to no good in these valuation claims.

 

[smartcooky]

Keep in mind when reading this that I am anti-Trump, and want him gone from politics.

Could be something, could be nothing. I do note that none of the entities supposedly defrauded by Trump have sued him themselves, which is certainly interesting.

That could be for a number of reasons

1. They do not have standing to do so.
2. They do not have the necessary resources to find evidence to support a claim.
3. They figure it would be such a long, protracted fight, the cost benefit ratio would be a large negative number.
4. They realise that once the NY government is done, there will be nothing to gain anyway.

As far as the appraisal BS goes, be serious. No lender relies on a borrower's appraisal (this was the business I worked in for 40 years), any good loan officer can do a desk valuation in 20 minutes that won't be more than 10% off the $10,000 appraisal that an MAI will provide.

5. They may be found to have violated laws (or at least standards) themselves in their own business practices

 

[Thermal]

My guy? I don't support Trump, I want him gone one way or another. But as the old saying goes, when you shoot at the king, you'd better kill him. From what I've read so far, this gun seems likely to misfire.

"The King"? Really? Methinks that dog has had his day.

 

[smartcooky]

Could be something, could be nothing. I do note that none of the entities supposedly defrauded by Trump have sued him themselves, which is certainly interesting. As far as the appraisal BS goes, be serious. No lender relies on a borrower's appraisal (this was the business I worked in for 40 years), any good loan officer can do a desk valuation in 20 minutes that won't be more than 10% off the $10,000 appraisal that an MAI will provide.

Just a couple of things to add to this that I didn't know earlier when I posted the first reply, but that I do known now because I have watched the whole press conference, including questions and answers.

James was asked a question similar to yours by a reporter...

Reporter: "Did they just not check anything that people tell them or they presumed it was true or did they have hints that these things were not true, that they were being told? And what does it tell you about those institutions, that they would take his word for it?

Tish James: "Let me just say with respect to Mazars, Mazars indicated on the Statement of Financial Condition that they did not certify and that they did not audit these statements and that does not absolve Mr. Trump of submitting inaccurate information. With respect to Cushman-Wakefield, there is an ongoing investigation into Cushman-Wakefield, and then lastly with respect to Deutsche Bank... we're in conversations with Deutsche bank. They have been cooperating with our office.​

I think she has got the whole damned Trump Crime Family dead to rights.... there is no way to explain away this...

 

[Ranb]

More Legal Eagle stuff on Letitia James' civil suit against Trump. Looks bad for the Trump family, good for everyone else

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iX0mULW0XZI

 

[Orphia Nay]

I knew we had a thread about this. For posterity's sake, bumping it.

Trump guilty of fraud, says judge.

"Engoron found that Trump consistently overvalued Mar-a-Lago, inflating its value on one financial statement by as much as 2,300%. The judge also rebuked Trump for lying about the size of his Manhattan apartment. Trump claimed his three-story Trump Tower penthouse was nearly three times its actual size, valuing it at $327 million.

"“A discrepancy of this order of magnitude, by a real estate developer sizing up his own living space of decades, can only be considered fraud,” Engoron wrote."

https://apnews.com/article/1569245a9284427117b8d3ba5da74249

 

[The Great Zaganza]

to be mildly fair to Trump, all these instances are also fraud perpetrated by the banks and insurers against their shareholders and customers for not doing even basic diligence.

And fraud by the Legislators against taxpayers for allowing bankers to take on high-risk debtors with no risk to themselves, legally or financially, since they can always depend on a bail-out and a very small wiggling of fingers.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

to be mildly fair to Trump, all these instances are also fraud perpetrated by the banks and insurers against their shareholders and customers for not doing even basic diligence.

And fraud by the Legislators against taxpayers for allowing bankers to take on high-risk debtors with no risk to themselves, legally or financially, since they can always depend on a bail-out and a very small wiggling of fingers.

yeah, you can be sure that this pencil whipping of bank records, with bank and borrower both well aware of it, is not something unique to Trump at all, and you'd hope that a high profile example of it would result in broader, systematic scrutiny and reform, but that doesn't seem to have been the case.

It does seem a useful lesson though. If you're in the type of business where this kind of fraud is routine, probably best not to enter national politics where your opponents are going to be going through your past dealings with a fine tooth comb.

 

[Hercules56]

Why didn't NY charge Trump with criminal fraud? Why just a civil case? I dont get it.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Why didn't NY charge Trump with criminal fraud? Why just a civil case? I dont get it.

Presumably because proving criminal fraud is much more difficult while filing a civil suit against a business is more straightforward.

 

[Hercules56]

Presumably because proving criminal fraud is much more difficult while filing a civil suit against a business is more straightforward.

Lying about their value means also lying about their revenue and profits, would that not also be criminal tax evasion?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Lying about their value means also lying about their revenue and profits, would that not also be criminal tax evasion?

it would have been an effort to demonstrate harm, especially when the banks and insurers are not cooperating.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Presumably because proving criminal fraud is much more difficult while filing a civil suit against a business is more straightforward.

And it is white collar crime, they never hold the people responsible for the fraud or other financial malfeasance criminally liable. Look how few people went to prison in the 08 debacle.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Lying about their value means also lying about their revenue and profits, would that not also be criminal tax evasion?

Maybe, maybe not. Just because they lied to the bank doesn't mean they necessarily lied to the IRS. It's not like they are all in one big conference call. They easily could have pencil whipped the numbers for the bank while providing the correct values to the tax man.

 

[Hercules56]

Maybe, maybe not. Just because they lied to the bank doesn't mean they necessarily lied to the IRS. It's not like they are all in one big conference call. They easily could have pencil whipped the numbers for the bank while providing the correct values to the tax man.

This....is....true.

Sigh.

 

[Donal]

Tiffany has never been happier to be Tiffany.