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Null Physics anyone?

We need to be clear about the distinction between a spacetime and a coordinate
system. A spacetime admits any number of coordinate systems. Two different spacetimes are distinguished over some domain by the fact of not being coverable by the
same coordiante system.

I am quite clear on that, thank you.

De Sitter can be written in conformal form, and therefore belongs to the class of conformal spacetimes, even if it is not written in conformal form (but in static or Rw form say).

You are not using the terminology in a standard way. "Conformal" is a property of a transformation, not of a spacetime. What you probably mean to say is that de Sitter space is conformal to Minkowski space, or equivalently that it is conformally flat.

The point of my original post is that in general one cannot say whether or not light red-shifts, blue-shifts or does neither without stating a coordinate system (not a spacetime), which statement thereof is not physics.

That did not seem to be the point of your original post. It sounds as though you have come around to agreeing with me, though, which is good. Notice that this is not at all like tired light, where the claim was that light always redshifts with time.

More specifically, there is no physical meaning to the statement that light red-shifts in de Sitter spacetime, since red-shift depends on the coordinate system, which is not specified just by naming the spacetime.

There is no physical meaning to that statement in general, but there certainly is once you specify the trajectory of the source and the receiver. That's why it's important that the universe picks a particular coordinate system (the one in which the matter density depends only on time). In our universe all matter is close to comoving (i.e. at rest in those special coordinates) and essentially all radiation is emitted from surfaces at rest in those coordinates, and therefore there IS a physical meaning to the statement that light redshifts - and the redshift occurs because the universe is expanding. There is no way around that.

In de Sitter spacetime expressed in static de Sitter coordinates light red-shifts as it propagates due to a distant-dependent radial term in the metric.

Now we're back to where we started... that statement is incorrect, as I keep trying to explain to you. It is impossible that there could be any preference towards redshifting in static coordinates (precisely because the coordinates are static). In fact, light redshifts with respect to static time only if it propagates towards the origin. If it propagates away, it blueshifts.
 
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You are not using the terminology in a standard way. "Conformal" is a property of a transformation, not of a spacetime. What you probably mean to say is that de Sitter space is conformal to Minkowski space, or equivalently that it is conformally flat.
It is in quite general use. Indeed I have used it in several publications with no problem.

Conformal is not really a property of a transformation in GR, it is a relationship between two systems. By conformal one usually means shorthand for related to Minkowski spacetime by a common overall factor. But one can have 'conformal to Einstein coordinates' also. It use does not (directly) imply a transformation, since there is no transformation from Minkowski (written in Minkowski-Lorentz coordinates) to RW with k = -1 or k = +1 (written in conformal coordinates).

That did not seem to be the point of your original post. It sounds as though you have come around to agreeing with me, though, which is good.
I am not sure we have yet reached agreement. Nothing you have said so far has changed my view.

Notice that this is not at all like tired light, where the claim was that light always redshifts with time.
I cannot speak with confidence in general for those who advocate 'Tired Light'. It is my impression that they intend to replace metric-induced 'stretching of light waves' if you will, as for example illustrated in MTW, with some propagation-dependent behavior that reddens light, all the while in a static universe.

My point is that this criterion can be met in a de Sitter spacetime written in static coordinates whilst remaining compatible with GR.

(The MTW picture is a RW k = +1 written in 'RW coordinates', though the conformal coordinate system is discussed also.)

As far as I can tell from Terry Witt's postings, he does not contradict this particular tired-light type interpretation of cosmological redshift (and which is compatible with GR). But I am happy to be corrected on this if you can point to something he said.

There is no physical meaning to that statement [that light red-shifts in de Sitter spacetime], in general, but there certainly is once you specify the trajectory of the source and the receiver.
I assumed all along we were talking about so-called 'fundamental observers'. These are static in the RW coordinate system, and static in the static de Sitter system. If you are talking about observers moving with respect to these systems then we have been talking past each other. The Cosmological Principle, from which the RW metrics are derived, is valid only for fundamental observers.

Now we're back to where we started... that statement is incorrect, as I keep trying to explain to you. It is impossible that there could be any preference towards redshifting in static coordinates (precisely because the coordinates are static). In fact, light redshifts with respect to static time only if it propagates towards the origin. If it propagates away, it blueshifts.
There seems to be a major problem of communication here. As far as I can see, the case is decided and closed, just by consideration of how the exponential phase varies in static de Sitter coordinates. If you do not find that explanation satisfying, please say exactly what is wrong with it.

Use that the de Sitter metric in static isotropic form has line element
[latex]
ds^2 = \left( {\left( {1 + {\bf{x}}^2 } \right)^2 {\text{d}}{\kern 1pt} t^2 - {\text{d}}{\kern 1pt} {\bf{x}}^2 } \right)/\left( {1 - {\bf{x}}^2 } \right)^2
[/latex]
(units are all normalized with respect to the Hubble constant), then the exponential phase factor in a plane-wave decomposition of the potential is

[latex]
A \propto \exp \left( {i\frac{{\left( {1 + {\bf{x}}^2 } \right)^2 }}
{{\left( {1 - {\bf{x}}^2 } \right)^2 }}\omega {\kern 1pt} t - i\frac{1}
{{\left( {1 - {\bf{x}}^2 } \right)^2 }}{\bf{k}}{\bf{.}}{\kern 1pt} {\bf{x}}} \right)
[/latex]
where the dot product is Euclidean, and [latex]\omega ^{\left( 0 \right)} ,{\bf{k}}^{\left( 0 \right)} [/latex] are constants. Hence the frequency changes as it propagates according to
[latex]
\omega \left( {\bf{x}} \right) = \frac{{\left( {1 + {\bf{x}}^2 } \right)^2 }}
{{\left( {1 - {\bf{x}}^2 } \right)^2 }}\omega ^{\left( 0 \right)}
[/latex]
and the wavelength changes according to
[latex]
\lambda \left( {\bf{x}} \right) = \left( {1 - {\bf{x}}^2 } \right)^2 \lambda ^{\left( 0 \right)}
[/latex]

That's why it's important that the universe picks a particular coordinate system (the one in which the matter density depends only on time).
No. Humans (not the universe) may pick a coordinate system in which matter density depends only on time.

More specifically, the coordinate density of matter depends on time in the RW coordinate system. But that is not a physical statement. The proper density of matter is constant in this system - which is a physical statement.

By contrast, in the static de Sitter system, the coordinate density of matter depends only on distance, not time!

In our universe all matter is close to comoving (i.e. at rest in those special coordinates) and essentially all radiation is emitted from surfaces at rest in those coordinates,
Agreed.
and therefore there IS a physical meaning to the statement that light redshifts
There is a physical meaning to the statement that we observe red-shifted starlight.
- and the redshift occurs because the universe is expanding.
The reason you give is coordinate dependent, and therefore does not have a genuine physical meaning.

There is no way around that.

There is, and I gave it above for the static de Sitter system. Please address that mathematics directly.
 
It is in quite general use. Indeed I have used it in several publications with no problem.

That usage is both imprecise and ambiguous. I would probably know what was meant in context (as in this case), but it is not in general use. See my comment below for the general usage.

Conformal is not really a property of a transformation in GR, it is a relationship between two systems. By conformal one usually means shorthand for related to Minkowski spacetime by a common overall factor. But one can have 'conformal to Einstein coordinates' also. It use does not (directly) imply a transformation, since there is no transformation from Minkowski (written in Minkowski-Lorentz coordinates) to RW with k = -1 or k = +1 (written in conformal coordinates).

A conformal transformation is any transformation that preserves angles locally. That is the definition used in every field from mathematics to statistical mechanics to string theory to general relativity. Two metrics in GR are conformal to each other if they are related by a conformal transformation (which means one metric can be written as other times an overall function).

Anyway I'm not interested in semantics, so I'm not going to continue discussing this.

I am not sure we have yet reached agreement. Nothing you have said so far has changed my view.

Well it certainly sounds like your position has changed, but then again, it's hard to tell exactly what your position is, so I can't be sure.

I assumed all along we were talking about so-called 'fundamental observers'. These are static in the RW coordinate system, and static in the static de Sitter system.

If by "static" you mean that the trajectory is at constant spatial coordinates, that is impossible. There is only one observer who is at rest ("static") in both the RW and static coordinates - that's the one at the origin - but we must specify the trajectory of both the emitter and the receiver in order to compute the observed redshift.

If you are talking about observers moving with respect to these systems then we have been talking past each other. The Cosmological Principle, from which the RW metrics are derived, is valid only for fundamental observers.

There is no (unique) cosmological principle in pure de Sitter. There is no such thing as a unique set of "fundamental observers" in dS (by the way, the correct term is "comoving"). That's probably what's causing your confusion.

Ask yourself this - "fundamental" with respect to which RW coordinate system? Expanding flat? Contracting flat? Closed? Contracting or expanding open? All those sets of observers are different and in relative motion with respect to each other, and all are equally "fundamental" in pure dS.

There seems to be a major problem of communication here. As far as I can see, the case is decided and closed, just by consideration of how the exponential phase varies in static de Sitter coordinates. If you do not find that explanation satisfying, please say exactly what is wrong with it.

What's wrong with it is (in part) that you haven't specified the trajectory of both the receiver and the emitter.

Here's a concrete physical question. Consider an object at x=0 in your coordinates which is emitting light of frequency w. Now consider a receiver sitting at constant x which receives the light. Question - what frequency will the receiver measure?

The answer is that the light will be blueshifted by an amount which depends on x (and which goes to infinity at x=1). If you can't figure out how to compute what the factor is I'll do it later and show you.

If you don't agree the frequency is blueshifted, that's a definite and precise claim which we can evaluate. In that case I suggest we focus on that point, since clearly one of us is correct and one is wrong.

No. Humans (not the universe) may pick a coordinate system in which matter density depends only on time.

You're not getting the point. It is an extremely special property of the universe that allows us to do that. The greatest mysteries of cosmology are all tied up in the question of why that is possible.

The reason you give is coordinate dependent, and therefore does not have a genuine physical meaning.

It sounds like you suffer from a rather profound confusion over coordinate dependence. All statements which depend on coordinates are physical if you specify the coordinates. That is obvious. Imagine putting down a coordinate system on spacetime. Now that it's there, you can use it to measure things, and your results are clearly physical. That's why we need coordinates in the first place.

The analogous statement in gauge theory is that anything expressed in a completely fixed gauge is manifestly gauge invariant and physical. This point often causes confusion, so you're not alone.
 
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Oh dear, with each response another confusion arises. I'm sure this would be cleared up more easily in an interactive exchange rather than by email.

If by "static" you mean that the trajectory is at constant spatial coordinates, that is impossible.
The observers in question are at constant spatial coordinates in RW coordinates- not the trajectory!

There is only one observer who is at rest ("static") in both the RW and static coordinates - that's the one at the origin
Yes. That is true. I misspoke when I said the fundamental observer is static in static de Sitter: she is not.

- but we must specify the trajectory of both the emitter and the receiver in order to compute the observed redshift.
That is true. The trajectory of the fundamental observer written in static dS in general is moving (with the origin being an exception). This would induce a Doppler component. But that is in addition to the red-shift incurred by light during propagation. From one fundamental observer to another.

Here's a concrete physical question. Consider an object at x=0 in your coordinates which is emitting light of frequency w. Now consider a receiver sitting at constant x which receives the light. Question - what frequency will the receiver measure?

The answer is that the light will be blueshifted by an amount which depends on x (and which goes to infinity at x=1). If you can't figure out how to compute what the factor is I'll do it later and show you.
Don't be patronizing. You are not qualified, and it does not engender a friendly exchange.

I'm sorry, the metric I gave above was (mistakenly) for anti-de Sitter. I honestly did not mean to mislead you. De Sitter is the same but with signs reversed:
[latex]
<br /> ds^2 = \left( {\left( {1 - {\bf{x}}^2 } \right)^2 {\text{d}}{\kern 1pt} t^2 - {\text{d}}{\kern 1pt} {\bf{x}}^2 } \right)/\left( {1 + {\bf{x}}^2 } \right)^2 <br />
[/latex]
Now apply your own reasoning for large x and find that Omega->0 at the Hubble radius whilst the wavelength increases but stays finite. Hence the light red-shifts.

If you don't agree the frequency is blueshifted, that's a definite and precise claim which we can evaluate.
In that case I suggest we focus on that point, since clearly one of us is correct and one is wrong.
Agreed. I do not mind being wrong. But here I am correct.

However, thank you for drawing my attention to the fact that the metric induced red-shift (with distance) is not the full story. There is some Doppler for the fundamental observer also in static de Sitter. But the fact remains that red-shift takes place during propagation and is not due to expansion but due to the effects of the de Sitter r^2 potential on EM waves.

I do not want to argue the Tired Light case for Mr Witt ad nauseam. But the tired light advocates may say that a component of Doppler is quite acceptable since their goal was simply to do away with 'expansion of space' and effects thereof as an explanation for observed Cosmological red-shift. The static de Sitter achieves that aim.
 
@sol invictus
It sounds like you suffer from a rather profound confusion over coordinate dependence.
How about we stick to the issue and you stop trying to diagnose me with some malady?

All statements which depend on coordinates are physical if you specify the coordinates.
OK: here we agree! Cosmological expansion and red-shift of radiation due to expansion of spacetime are coordinate dependent explanations. They are correct explanations of the observational state of affairs in the traditional RW coordinate system. Again: my point is that if one simply says "cosmological red-shift due to expansion" without saying what coordinate system then the claim is meaningless. Realizing that, one sees that there are other explanations consistent within other coordinate systems for the same observed phenomena. In the particular case of de Sitter spacetime, one may legitimately say that cosmological red-shift is due to an expansion factor a ~ exp(Ht) in RW coordinates. And equally one may say that cosmological red-shift is not due to expansion at all, but due to a radial gravitational potential - plus some Doppler component.

The analogous statement in gauge theory is that anything expressed in a completely fixed gauge is manifestly gauge invariant and physical.
Maxwell expressed in Lorenz gauge is [latex] \partial ^2 A = j [/latex]. The original gauge invariance before choosing the Lorenz gauge was that the equations are unchanged if [latex] A \to A + \partial \chi [/latex] where chi is a completely arbitrary scalar function. The new equation does not have that invariance.

Consequently what you say above that "anything expressed ..." is incorrect. The vector potential does not have that invariance.

The analogy with the discussion above is that expansion-induced cosmological red-shift is like the vector potential in that it depends on the coordinate 'gauge' in GR.

By contrast, observed phenomena such as red-shift of starlight - stripped of course of an 'explanation' for how it comes about - is a physical outcome of the theory, and therefore must be independent of gauge choice. This is analogous to the Faraday Tensor which is a direct observable in classical EM and therefore insensitive to the choice of gauge. That is, F is gauge-invariant, even after having chosen a gauge for the potential.
This point often causes confusion, so you're not alone.
Again: why the sly attack? What is the point? Even if I was wrong or confused (which of course I am not :)) it adds nothing and only subtracts from the exchange.
 
The observers in question are at constant spatial coordinates in RW coordinates- not the trajectory!

Right - that's what I asked you. So OK, understood.

I misspoke when I said the fundamental observer is static in static de Sitter: she is not.

But then what is her trajectory? You can't tell me it's that of the fundamental RW observer, because there are at least five different sets of fundamental RW observers. I think this is the central point - I don't think you appreciate how large the symmetry group of dS is.

Now apply your own reasoning for large x and find that Omega->0 at the Hubble radius whilst the wavelength increases but stays finite. Hence the light red-shifts.

Agreed. I do not mind being wrong. But here I am correct.

Very well then. That solution is (probably, I didn't check the signs) a solution to Maxwell's equations using the static dS coordinates. The fact that w->0 at the horizon is nothing more than the standard "freezing of time" which occurs at any horizon.

However w->0 in these coordinates does NOT mean that our observer near the horizon will measure w->0. Remember, clocks carried by the observer are moving very slowly as well. And since the observer is non-inertial (fixed x requires an acceleration towards x=0) the slowdown is actually greater for her clocks than it is for the lightwave.

How best to see this? I could solve the equations and type them up, but you seem to know something at least about this stuff (and I'm lazy), so I'm going to try to convince you verbally. Forget light for a minute, and imagine our observer Andy at x=0 gently tossing a rock to Betty at x=.9. Since you like the static potential, you know it's sloping down towards minus infinity at the horizon. Therefore, when Betty catches the rock it's moving very fast (relative to her), and she will therefore measure its energy to be very large. By the same token, she will have to throw it very very hard to get it back to Andy.

From that it should be obvious that light exchanged between the two blueshifts when going from x=0 to x=.9 (downhill), and redshifts going up.

So: do you agree with that and admit you were wrong before?

I do not want to argue the Tired Light case for Mr Witt ad nauseam. But the tired light advocates may say that a component of Doppler is quite acceptable since their goal was simply to do away with 'expansion of space' and effects thereof as an explanation for observed Cosmological red-shift. The static de Sitter achieves that aim.

We do not live in pure de Sitter space. Cosmological redshifts - the ones we measure, not the ones in some hypothetical and ill-specified universe - cannot be explained without cosmological expansion. The dark energy dominated phase we are now entering has almost no effect on the observed redshifts (why else was it not discovered until 10 years ago?). Nearly all the observations arise from radiation followed by matter domination. If you want to argue the tired light hypothesis, you must find a static metric which describes that.

Good luck.

Consequently what you say above that "anything expressed ..." is incorrect. The vector potential does not have that invariance.

Actually it does, although my statement was a little unclear. It is true that if you make a gauge transformation some things change. But what I said was that in a fixed gauge everything is physical. The whole point is that you're not allowed to change the gauge - you must fix a gauge and stick to it.

Gauge invariance is not a symmetry - it's a redundancy in the variables used. It's often convenient to keep it, but if instead you fix the redundancy everything you calculate will be physical. Precisely the same goes for coordinates.
 
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The fundamental observer (FO) due to Milne is logically prior to the discovery of the RW metrics and is based upon The Cosmological Principle. It is not derived from or dependent upon a metric - RW or DS - or even upon the validity of GR. The FO in RW coordinates is at x = constant. The coordinate transformation from RW to static isotropic de Sitter (see for example arxiv.org/abs/0704.3265) will then give the trajectory of the FO there.
However w->0 in these coordinates does NOT mean that our observer near the horizon will measure w->0.
I'm sure you understand that observers 'near the horizon' do in fact measure omega -> zero; we are at some significant fraction of the Hubble radius of distant galaxies as they are relative to ours, so we should infer that they will see the light of the Milky way as redshifted just as we see theirs as red-shifted. I presume that you really mean something different (?)
We do not live in pure de Sitter space. ...Good luck.
True: No we don't. I think this is the best GR can do to agree with Tired Light. See arxiv.org/abs/0704.3265 for a proof that there are no other static systems compatible with RW.

It is true that if you make a gauge transformation some things change. But what I said was that in a fixed gauge everything is physical.
But you did not say that. What you said was:
The analogous statement in gauge theory is that anything expressed in a completely fixed gauge is manifestly gauge invariant and physical.
Hence my correction.

Gauge invariance is not a symmetry - it's a redundancy in the variables used. It's often convenient to keep it, but if instead you fix the redundancy everything you calculate will be physical. Precisely the same goes for coordinates.
I 100% agree.

As I said, I have no great interest in defending tired light. I do have an interest in exposing coordinate-based and gauge-based predjudices (i.e. having no intrinsic physical meaning) since I have found this to be a fruitful area of study in its own right, leading to new insights, for myself at least!
 
The fundamental observer (FO) due to Milne is logically prior to the discovery of the RW metrics and is based upon The Cosmological Principle. It is not derived from or dependent upon a metric - RW or DS - or even upon the validity of GR. The FO in RW coordinates is at x = constant. The coordinate transformation from RW to static isotropic de Sitter (see for example arxiv.org/abs/0704.3265) will then give the trajectory of the FO there.

Which RW coordinates? I've asked you that three times and you keep ignoring it. I mentioned five different sets of RM coordinates for dS - each one has a different set of "fundamental" observers, none of which can be preferred. That's one way to see why it's nonsensical to think that there can be any preference for redshifts in pure dS.

I'm sure you understand that observers 'near the horizon' do in fact measure omega -> zero; we are at some significant fraction of the Hubble radius of distant galaxies as they are relative to ours, so we should infer that they will see the light of the Milky way as redshifted just as we see theirs as red-shifted. I presume that you really mean something different (?)

I thought we were going to focus on the specific, physical, and concrete example I proposed. Do you or do you not think that an observer at fixed non-zero x in the static coordinates (note that such an observer is NOT at rest in any of the RW coordinate systems) will measure a redshift for signals sent by an observer at rest at x=0?

The correct answer is that she will measure a blueshift.

True: No we don't. I think this is the best GR can do to agree with Tired Light. See arxiv.org/abs/0704.3265 for a proof that there are no other static systems compatible with RW.

No need to look - that's totally obvious.
 
The mystery of our existence has beaten scientists and philosophers for so long that they are utterly convinced that reality's underpinnings are beyond human comprehension." It's the 'why' part that gets me.

I already solved that for you. No charge.
 
@sol invictus
Which RW coordinates? I've asked you that three times and you keep ignoring it. I mentioned five different sets of RM coordinates for dS - each one has a different set of "fundamental" observers, none of which can be preferred. That's one way to see why it's nonsensical to think that there can be any preference for redshifts in pure dS.
I honestly do not understand your uncertainty. If it helps, let us have k = 0 and line element
[latex]ds^2 = dt^2 - a^2 \left( t \right)d{\mathbf{x}}^2 [/latex]
The fundamental observers are at x = constant. Recall, the notion of fundamental observer belongs originally to the RW spacetimes predicated on the Cosmological Principle. The maximally symmetric dS is predicated on the 'Perfect Cosmological Principle'. If one were to generalize 'fundamental observer' to dS, then yes, there would be others - more than those simply obtained from transforming the fundamental observer of RW k = 0 with an exponential, i.e. having line element
[latex]$ds^2 = dt^2 - \exp \left( {2Ht} \right)d{\mathbf{x}}^2 [/latex]
But let's just stick with the original meaning of fundamental observer introduced by Milne, valid for RW in general.
I thought we were going to focus on the specific, physical, and concrete example I proposed. Do you or do you not think that an observer at fixed non-zero x in the static coordinates (note that such an observer is NOT at rest in any of the RW coordinate systems) will measure a redshift for signals sent by an observer at rest at x=0?
Such an observer is not fundamental as generally accepted (see above) and not of interest to me here.
 
As a long time reader of this forum (tho I rarely post) I had to chime in on how much fun this thread has been for me. My background is cognitive psychology, not physics, so watching the crazy debate is actually very enlightening--the extremes of crazy claims versus rational explanations really helps me understand just a tad more than I did.

And... OT (I yup, after all these years not 15 posts!):
http (://) youtube(dot)com/watch?v=DQaF4YXCXsc&feature=related
 
I honestly do not understand your uncertainty. If it helps, let us have k = 0 and line element
[latex]ds^2 = dt^2 - a^2 \left( t \right)d{\mathbf{x}}^2 [/latex]

Why pick k=0? de Sitter can be written as an FRW spacetime with k=0, +1, or -1.

The fundamental observers are at x = constant.

For which a(t)? And for which k?

Such an observer is not fundamental as generally accepted (see above) and not of interest to me here.

Total nonsense. You started by claiming we could ignore the matter in the universe and approximate it as dS. But if we do so, there is no preference whatsoever for a(t) = exp(2 H t) over a(t) = exp(-2 H t). If we do NOT ignore the matter, than we cannot use pure dS.

And you STILL haven't answer the question you agreed we should focus on three or four posts back: do you or do you not agree that an observer at fixed static coordinate in dS will observe a blue shift in signals sent by the inertial observer at the origin?
 
@sol invictus
Why pick k=0? de Sitter can be written as an FRW spacetime with k=0, +1, or -1.
You asked for the trajectory of the fundamental observer. I have given you my answer. It is x = constant in RW coordinates for any k. This has nothing to do with the extra symmetries in de Sitter spacetime.

I suggested we concentrate on k = 0 because there appears to be some sort of misunderstanding between us. Focusing on one case might help. We can include all three is you wish, but the answer is unchanged: the fundamental observer is at x = constant if the metric is written in the standard RW form.

The notion of fundamental observer is coordinate independent and is well-documented. Can we move on from this point?

For which a(t)? And for which k?
Again: fundamental observers are at x = constant for any k and for any RW system, and therefore for any a(t) in

[latex]
ds^2 = dt^2 - a^2 \left( t \right)\left( {dr^2 + \sin ^2 \left( {\sqrt k r} \right)d\Omega ^2 /k} \right)
[/latex]

Total nonsense. You started by claiming we could ignore the matter in the universe and approximate it as dS. But if we do so, there is no preference whatsoever for a(t) = exp(2 H t) over a(t) = exp(-2 H t). If we do NOT ignore the matter, than we cannot use pure dS.
See my previous postings for what I said about asymptotic convergence of present RW universe towards De Sitter. You will find an adequate motivation for the fundamental observer there. If you object to applying that definition in the limit that RW -> dS then OK, I am not going to try to change your mind. I really don't think there is any confusion on your part here. It seems then that there is nothing left to debate about the physical content of GR on this topic and therefore nothing of interest for me. But if you have a different and interesting point to make I will respond to it.
[/QUOTE]

And you STILL haven't answer the question you agreed we should focus on three or four posts back: do you or do you not agree that an observer at fixed static coordinate in dS will observe a blue shift in signals sent by the inertial observer at the origin?
My answer is the same as it was: this is not the trajectory of a fundamental observer so is of no interest to me.

Since it appears to remain of interest to you, then I must say that I believe you are mistaken. Rather than deal with Alice and Bob, I prefer to deal with things more concretely, using the metric to do the math. de Sitter in static isotropic coordinates is
[latex]
\[
ds^2 = \left( {\frac{{1 - {\mathbf{x}}^2 }}
{{1 + {\mathbf{x}}^2 }}} \right)^2 dt^2 - \frac{1}
{{\left( {1 + {\mathbf{x}}^2 } \right)^2 }}d{\mathbf{x}}^2
\]
[/latex]
The curved-space generalization of the incremental Minkowski phase factor for a plane wave [latex]\[k^a dx^b \eta _{ab} \][/latex] is
[latex]
\[
d\varphi = k^a dx^b g_{ab} = \omega \left( {\frac{{1 - {\mathbf{x}}^2 }}
{{1 + {\mathbf{x}}^2 }}} \right)dt - \frac{1}
{{\left( {1 + {\mathbf{x}}^2 } \right)^2 }}{\mathbf{k}}{\mathbf{.dx}}
\]
[/latex].
If the transmitter and receiver are both static, and choosing coordinates such the the transmitter is at the origin and the receiver is at z, and considering only waves that propagate with momentum entirely in the z direction, then
But the effective position-dependent frequency and momentum are simply the metric adjusted Minkowski values:
[latex]
\[
\omega \left( z \right) \propto \frac{{d\varphi }}
{{dt}} = \omega \left( 0 \right)\left( {\frac{{1 - z^2 }}
{{1 + z^2 }}} \right),
[/latex]
[latex]
k\left( z \right) \propto \frac{{d\varphi }}
{{dz}} = k\left( 0 \right)\frac{1}
{{\left( {1 + z^2 } \right)^2 }}
[/latex]
You can compute the total phase 'elapsed' in the ray-optics approximation by carrying out the integration if you wish:
[latex]
\varphi = \omega \left( {\frac{{1 - z^2 }}
{{1 + z^2 }}} \right)t - \frac{1}
{2}k\left( {\tan ^{ - 1} z + \frac{z}
{{1 + z^2 }}} \right)
[/latex]
But in any case, the frequency and momentum fall, hence the wavelength gets longer.


If you still object, then please point out what you think is wrong with this simple mathematics.
 
If the transmitter and receiver are both static, and choosing coordinates such the the transmitter is at the origin and the receiver is at z, and considering only waves that propagate with momentum entirely in the z direction, then
But the effective position-dependent frequency and momentum are simply the metric adjusted Minkowski values:

Joe90,

I think that there is a sentance, and possibly an expression, missing after "z direction, then" and before "But the effective position-dependent frequency........."
 
You asked for the trajectory of the fundamental observer. I have given you my answer. It is x = constant in RW coordinates for any k. This has nothing to do with the extra symmetries in de Sitter spacetime.
<snip>
Again: fundamental observers are at x = constant for any k and for any RW system, and therefore for any a(t) in

Which part of "there are five DIFFERENT sets of 'fundamental' observers in de Sitter" do you fail to understand?

The five FRW metrics are different from each other. The sets of observers at constant spatial coordinate are different - very different. But since you say it doesn't matter, fine - I pick contracting k=0 FRW with a(t)=exp(-2 H t) (note the minus sign).

According to your logic, all signals will blueshift, since the space is contracting.

Do you see the problem now?

My answer is the same as it was: this is not the trajectory of a fundamental observer so is of no interest to me.

OK, so you admit you were wrong before. Fine.

If the transmitter and receiver are both static, and choosing coordinates such the the transmitter is at the origin and the receiver is at z, and considering only waves that propagate with momentum entirely in the z direction

Do you not realize that you've just contradicted yourself in your own post? You said you weren't interested in observers at rest in static coordinates (contradicting an earlier post), and then a few lines later you present a computation for observers at rest in static coordinates.

I'm afraid you're just another of the crackpots that seem to haunt these forums...
 
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If you still object, then please point out what you think is wrong with this simple mathematics.

By the way, I already told you what is wrong with this. You are computing the frequency in the frame of the observer at x=0. As I tried to explain to you, the fact that omega goes to zero as z goes to 1 is the standard freezing of time at a horizon. But to compute the redshift as seen by Bob you must make a transformation to his frame, and the transformation factor will invert the function of x you have multiplying omega.

But that's unnecessary to illustrate my point, which was that this is not like tired light. You could just ask this (closely related) question, which can be answered immediately using your result: suppose there is a mirror at fixed z rather than an observer. Alice (at the origin) beams a laser against the mirror. According to you, the laser redshifts as it approaches the mirror, and blueshifts on its way back. In a tired light theory it would redshift both ways.
 
....Alice (at the origin) beams a laser against the mirror. According to you, the laser redshifts as it approaches the mirror, and blueshifts on its way back. In a tired light theory it would redshift both ways.

From now on can you guys *start* your like arguments like this, so we simpler minds don't have to wade through all the equations to get to them? ;)
 
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Gee joe90, how come the light from the Andromeda Galaxy is not getting so-called tired and is blue-shifted.

Paulhoff

:) :) :)
 

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