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Merged nuclear power safe?

That Fukushima ended in a better state than Chernobyl given the starting conditions is nothing less than spectacular.


Yeah, but we're talking about radiation, man! You know, the stuff that turns tiny ants into thirty-foot monsters that will devour us all, or awakens giant prehistoric lizards like Godzilla and grants it the power to breathe fire! Surely you can see just how bad that is!?!?
 
I'll take my chances with the nuc. :-)

Worst imaginable nuclear accident just happened. And nobody died.

I'm noting that it was not the "Worst imaginable nuclear accident" by any standard. If the reactor One fuel ponds had been damaged, so that the 30 or 40 years of spent fuel melted/burned, and released radiation into the environment, that would be far worse. If all four reactors had released the spent fuel radiation, that would be far far worse.

That would roughly be the same as 1,200 reactor cores all going into the air, water, onto the fields and cities, not just of Japan at that point, but the entire world would be polluted. From one power plant disaster.

I'll take my chances with the nuc. :-)

The serious problem is that a really bad disaster, with multiple reactors in a row, with decades of fuel rods stored right next to working reactors, the real serious problem is that it can snowball into the kind of thing that can destroy not only an entire country, but also damage the entire world.

It's like the doomsday machine from Strangelove.

I'm not saying that will always be so, but if you look at deaths per KWh, and I can think of no other meaningful standard except perhaps years of life lost per KWh and coal will be worse by either measure than nuclear power.

This assumes that for the rest of human history, no really bad disaster will ever happen with a nuclear power plant. Even with the worst case for oil and coal, (which we all agree are bad), just one disastrous release from a nuclear power plant can dwarf the damage. In a matter of weeks, the entire world can have death raining down from the skies.

And oil too. And if you factor in deaths due to bursting dams, hydropower isn't too safe, either.

I think everybody agrees that dams are a risk. The difference is a dam bursting in China doesn't threaten the northern hemisphere with pollution that will cause a billion deaths from cancer.

And we haven't even discussed the really worse case scenarios. If Fukushima I completely went up in nuclear flames, with fuel ponds breached and the entire plant exploding and burning, all 6 reactors abandoned, the radiation pouring out so bad nobody could get close to it anymore, not even with helicopters to drop water or boron or something, then the snowball effect becomes far worse.

Now we have the 4 working reactors burning and exploding, all 6 reactors fuel ponds burning, melting and releasing radiation.

The zone that can't be entered, even by suicide workers, willing to die, expands quickly to include Fukushima II power plant down the coast. Now there is another power plant abandoned, and it goes up in flames, all it's fuel and reactors in the same situation, no external power, and nobody able to get to the site to try and save them.

Now it's ten reactors, ten fuel ponds full of spent fuel, and it's all going to go into the air or ocean or ground water. Completely out of control. Like Fukushima I after they had to abandon the site due to radiation.

The panic and breakdown of social order, even in a country like Japan, reaches a level nobody has ever imagined. As the clouds of radiation spread, it's possible other power plants will be effected, maybe even abandoned.

Remember, this is all happening the day after the tsunami, with the country already in chaos. (and of course it can get far far worse after that)

Now that is a bad disaster. The kind nobody wants to imagine.

It illustrates why nuclear power poses risks and threats unlike any other technology used to produce electricity.
 
Now to counter all that horror, the latest information from Fukushima says reactor one has probably had a complete core meltdown, with four hours of the earthquake, and the core has melted through most of the concrete and is close to melting through the metal containment. The good news is there is still like 7 meters of concrete before the core reaches the ground under the building, and it's not likely to do that.

So the design of the reactor is working, so that the core has not left the building.

But they think most of the radioactive material that dissolves in water (from a melted reactor core), already has.

However they still say reactor two has released the most radiation so far. Even though it's not as bad of a meltdown.
 
And we haven't even discussed the really worse case scenarios. (snipped doom and gloom) Now that is a bad disaster. The kind nobody wants to imagine.

It illustrates why nuclear power poses risks and threats unlike any other technology used to produce electricity.
Yes, but how likely is this absolute worst case scenario? Is it as likely as dying in a plane crash? As a city with several million people being wiped out by a city killer asteroid? As the Norwegians secretly bulding 10 000 ICBMS for then to start a global thermonuclear war? As Yellowstone erupting? As the freak events in The Swarm? As the Moon colliding with the Earth? This is imperative when deciding to take measues against a disaster.

Oh, and reactors don't spontaneously decide to meltdown the minute you turn your back on them, more than an unmanned car without fuel can suddenly start running and chase you around the parking lot. They're not subdued demons, they're machines with failsafe safety systems.
 
TEPCO says it is highly likely Reactor one at Fukushima had completly melted down four hours after the earthquake. We know reactors don't just go crazy, but with out external power, and people around, the EDGs run out of fuel. Also, other things happen that require humans to monitor and adjust.

You can't walk away from a reactor and everything runs on it's own. Especially one running on emergency power, with damage to the plant as well. (Fukushima II)
 
Yes, but how likely is this absolute worst case scenario?

That's a good question. How likely is it that somebody would target a nuclear power plants external power, and cooling ducts, if they wanted to create terror by attacking a large nuclear power plant?

Conventional bombs would have little trouble damaging the infrastructure outside the containment buildings. And they now know how easy it is to get a power plant to blow up, just by cutting off the cooling.

Oh maybe not in the US or France of course, but there are a lot of reactors and power plants in parts of the world that don't have the high tech response ability of Japan.

How likely is it that at some point in the future a really bad multiple reactor disaster will happen? I don't know. And I don't like to think about it either.

Of course it's a mute point, since one already happened.
 
Yes, but how likely is this absolute worst case scenario? Is it as likely as dying in a plane crash? As a city with several million people being wiped out by a city killer asteroid? As the Norwegians secretly bulding 10 000 ICBMS for then to start a global thermonuclear war? As Yellowstone erupting? As the freak events in The Swarm? As the Moon colliding with the Earth? This is imperative when deciding to take measues against a disaster.

If it is 1 chance out of a million , then it is a sure things. And then whales with petunia plant will rain from the sky.


Zing !


Ok, I ll get my coat and get out.
 
The news story about Iran reminded me of the whole other safety issue with nuclear power.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204770404577078160095550518.html

Iran is locked in a dispute with the U.S. and its allies over Tehran's disputed nuclear program, which the West believes is aimed at the development of nuclear weapons. Iran denies the accusations, saying its nuclear program is entirely peaceful.

I think the real reason a lot of protesters protest is that each working reactor makes material that can be used to make bombs. Very powerful bombs. Very dangerous bombs. Or just spread the material around, as a terror weapon.

That's why Iran's nuclear program is considered dangerous. Not any worry over a meltdown, but over the simple fact that in just a year, they will have enough plutonium to make 40 hydrogen bombs.

Which understandably strikes fear into the hearts and minds of anyone who is fighting with Iran.

To answer the thread topic, nuclear power safe? No. Not by any means.
 
I think the real reason a lot of protesters protest is that each working reactor makes material that can be used to make bombs.
oh, you do. Thanks for finally getting to the point 63 pages into the thread, then.
 
Before Fukushima I never really thought much about nuclear power as dangerous. The bombs, the cold war, of course, but not the power plants. As for the bombs, it always seemed they made the world a safer place, in the larger picture.

The big boys became afraid of having a war with each other.
 
The news story about Iran reminded me of the whole other safety issue with nuclear power.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204770404577078160095550518.html



I think the real reason a lot of protesters protest is that each working reactor makes material that can be used to make bombs. Very powerful bombs. Very dangerous bombs. Or just spread the material around, as a terror weapon.

That's why Iran's nuclear program is considered dangerous. Not any worry over a meltdown, but over the simple fact that in just a year, they will have enough plutonium to make 40 hydrogen bombs.

Which understandably strikes fear into the hearts and minds of anyone who is fighting with Iran.

To answer the thread topic, nuclear power safe? No. Not by any means.

This is too wrong on too many levels. And I am pretty sure there is at minimum one logical fallacy.

Your answer is incorrect.
 
Ask Iran. For some reason a lot of countries are claiming Iran having a reactor is dangerous. Go figure.
 
Ask Iran. For some reason a lot of countries are claiming Iran having a reactor is dangerous. Go figure.

What kind of reactor?

Maybe you should go investigoogle the differences between electrical power production and weapons-grade material production.

Why do conspiracy theorists have to learn Every. Single. Point. of their conspiracy step by step as they go along?
 
That's why Iran's nuclear program is considered dangerous. Not any worry over a meltdown, but over the simple fact that in just a year, they will have enough plutonium to make 40 hydrogen bombs.

Which understandably strikes fear into the hearts and minds of anyone who is fighting with Iran.

To answer the thread topic, nuclear power safe? No. Not by any means.
Somehow nobody says such things about India's nuclear reactors. Perhaps because Iran is a theocracy which repeatedly stated a desire to erase a certain country off the map, and India is a responsible democracy?
 
If France inherits the world because everyone else runs out of energy, it would be hilarious.
 
s ot t will be delighted to hear that bruce power has cancelled its plan for a nuclear power plant in alberta.
the anti-nuke force has triumphed again.
do i hear you celebrating s of t?

um, more like "the market forces triumphed". Between Kyoto and the falling price of natural gas the project was pretty much doomed.
 
Furcifer is correct. I got the following from the CNS email list from Professor Duane Bratt, at Mount Royal University the day after the announcement:

I just gave an interview to QR77 in Calgary on Bruce Power's withdrawal. In
my mind, this was not a surpise. I was due to low natural gas prices as
well as the multiple refurbishments that BP is doing in Ontario. Nuclear is not dead in Alberta because eventually gas prices will rise again, and the
refurbs will be complete in Ontario, and Bruce will need to look for areas
of expansion. The potential for SMR in the oil sands remains a possibility.

SMR refers to "Small Modular Reactors". Reactors similar in size and output to those operating in aircraft carriers and military submarines.

The nuclear future for all of modern civilization, remains mathematically inevitable.

But now without Kyoto holding us back, Alberta and Canada are full to add as much carbon to the atmosphere as our economic needs dictate.
 

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