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Merged nuclear power safe?

Java Man said:
Am I assuming it is possible to design for everything failing? I'm not saying you can counter all failures, but you can at least anticipate them. I'm saying you should ask "what happens if this fails or is not enough". As was the case with the wall. You can't build an infinitely tall wall, but you can have a backup in case it is not enough. In this case it was not enough. You can have a better design for the spent fuel ponds that anticipate failure in the cooling. Be prepared to bring mobile generators to anywhere in Japan within 24 hrs.

A great deal of trouble would have been mitigated if some things were looked into deeper instead of just saying, "oh we have the backup generators", "oh we have the wall". I get the feeling they just ran through a checklist to see if they had it, but not to see if they would have it during a crisis and what would be the backup then.

"No plan of operations extends with certainty beyond the first encounter with the enemy's main strength" ((no plan survives contact with the enemy), Helmuth von Moltke) As we've seen here the plans failed because once in contact with the real life scenario of a crisis things quickly became uncertain and the plan was designed around a series of events and not a series of failures. If there is a earthquake, if there is a tsunami, if there is a power outage. Rather than if the wall fails, if the generators fail, if power isn't restored in a week, etc.
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Java Man said:
No I wouldn't because they wouldn't have existed by then. Generation III reactors are a recent thing and came into service in Japan in the second half of the 90's. So expecting them to be replaced overnight and ready by 2001 is ludicrous. But move ahead 15 or 16 years and still no change is just negligent action trying to maximize profit from and outdated design. Notice that Gen III designs (http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf08.html)

  • a standardised design for each type to expedite licensing, reduce capital cost and reduce construction time,
  • a simpler and more rugged design, making them easier to operate and less vulnerable to operational upsets,
  • higher availability and longer operating life - typically 60 years,
  • further reduced possibility of core melt accidents,*
  • resistance to serious damage that would allow radiological release from an aircraft impact,
  • higher burn-up to reduce fuel use and the amount of waste,
  • burnable absorbers ("poisons") to extend fuel life.
The benefits are right there, including the added lifespan and reduces upfront cost.

If this had happened in the first half of the 00's and work was underway to build the new replacement reactors, well it would say it was bad luck. It's hard to get a new design in the same decade as you roll out a replacement for all units. But a little over two decades later (from early 90s to early 10's) and they're just getting started on seeing when they'll start disassembling it, mmhhhh. Just plain negligent.
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You seem to keep forgetting...the plant survived the earthquake--that is not negligent.

You still don't understand what is takes to design and roll out a plant--a conceptual design for a reactor will take at least two years just to finish prelimnary safety analysis. It typically takes longer as the design develops. This has to be follow by scale and conceptual testing. At that point, there are still years to actually design the plant to a level where we can start poring concrete. 10 to 15 years is not really that much time to roll out a new design. You should be asking questions to learn about nuclear plants. Instead you are using loaded rhetoric to show indignation.

Generation III reactors still need power. The benefits shown above are due to 50 years of experience and analysis--not knee-jerk post hoc thinking. (you must be a lawyer.) But I am tired of fighting strawmen...so I am bowing out of the discussion with you...bad mistakes I will correct however.

glenn
 
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Hindmost said:
You seem to keep forgetting...the plant survived the earthquake--that is not negligent.
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I'm sure everyone is aware of that. Maybe you've got something special in your blood, or your skin is radiation hardened, but for the rest of us the concern is the radiation leak. The concern here is that radiation has leaked in sufficient amounts to become hazardous to human health. It's good that the structure survived, things would have been a lot worse if it hadn't. But guess what, a great deal many other buildings survived the earthquake too. Heck I'd add all Tokyo to the list. Concentrate on that which matters and quit trying to cover up with some "success story" shared with all downtown Tokyo.


Hindmost said:
You still don't understand what is takes to design and roll out a plant--a conceptual design for a reactor will take at least two years just to finish prelimnary safety analysis. ......
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I do understand that the first Gen III reactors were operational in Japan in the mid 90's. That's about 15 years ago. Plenty of time to get the ball rolling with other upgrades.
 
I detected a trace of frustration creeping through the reporters voice today, because he had nothing to tell about the current fires at the plant, other than to mention they were now pumping water with fire trucks into fuel ponds located away from the reactors.

It was sort of scary funny that he acted like, "What could be burning in reactor number three?", as if there is anything left in that wreckage to burn except fuel rods and plutonium. After the giant explosion, and being doused with water for 16 hours, I don't think it's some left over lubricating oil on fire.

Or the trash bin.
 
The US Navy helped calm fears and showed it's support by handing out iodine tablets, leaving the Naval bases, (including an aircraft carrier that was under repairs).

No, it didn't sail off to help with the rescue efforts.
 
dudalb said:
Be interesting to see what happens when the Germans see what their sudden Nuclear shutdown is going to cost them.
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Yea, i'm interested in that too, since it directly affects me. The already way too high prices will get higher, because the energy companies can now claim that they need to import expensive electricity, or that they need to service our old coal plants even more, etc, driving the cost up.

But my guess is that in the end, nothing will happen. People will moan for a while, and then forget about it, as usual. It seems that we have become a nation of lazy suckers, that are loudmouthed in the pub, or if the media can make the hysterical about some minor crap, but who are otherwise to lazy and stupid to think for themselves.

Sad, but true. At least that's how i see it.

Greetings,

Chris
 
r-j said:
IAfter the giant explosion, and being doused with water for 16 hours, I don't think it's some left over lubricating oil on fire.
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I suspect firefighters may disagree with you.

There is also the suggestion inherent in your post that fuel rods burn much as wood or other combustible materials do. But do they?
 
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Nuclear Plant's Fuel Rods Damaged, Leaking Into Sea

The decay of radioactive fuel rods, composed of uranium and plutonium, was suspected by company officials five days after the March 11 magnitude-9 earthquake and tsunami off the main island of Honshu.

The disclosures on the spread of radiation were made in a press briefing after midnight Tokyo time and in a press release this morning.

Iodine-131 was detected at 127 times normal levels from sample water taken at 2:30 p.m. yesterday, while cesium-134 levels were 25 times normal and cesium-137 was at 17 times normal, Tepco said on its website.
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Japan’s nuclear safety agency said the nation will limit distribution of spinach and milk after samples from the area near the plant 135 miles (220 kilometers) north of Tokyo were found to have higher-than-normal radiation levels. Spinach sampled at Hitachi, 97 kilometers south of the plant, contained 27 times the government limits for Iodine-131, according to the health ministry. That spinach won’t enter the food chain.

“Food-borne radiation will last longer than airborne radiation,” Gregory Hartl, a spokesman for the World Health Organization in Geneva, said in an interview. “Even smaller amounts of radiation in food could potentially be more dangerous because you ingest it.”
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:(
 
r-j said:
Speak for yourself. Not everyone is careless and wasteful.
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It doesn't matter if you are the most energy conscious person alive. In fact it wouldn't matter if all the residents were. The vast majority of electricity is used for commerce and industry.

So people could just continue to conserve electricity in their own homes until the end of time and it would never really make a difference. It's a "feel good" activity and nothing more.
 
That is also true for reducing your 'carbon footprint'. Ordinary people are nothing compared to commercial carbon pollution.
 
r-j said:
Speak for yourself. Not everyone is careless and wasteful.
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Prejudice much? Tell you what: I use about 1300 kWh per year. And that includes the electricity for hot water, as well as the one needed for heating (using storage heaters). So you can be pretty sure that what i use is pretty much the lowest amount possible.

So, what's your point again?

Greetings,

Chris
 
Puppycow said:
Nuclear Plant's Fuel Rods Damaged, Leaking Into Sea
Iodine-131 was detected at 127 times normal levels from sample water taken at 2:30 p.m. yesterday
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:(
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So I wondered how bad this was, it took a little searching, but if you were to stand right next (1cm away) to 1 litre of this water for an hour, you would receive the whooping dose of 0.0061 mSv or about 190x normal background radiation. Now that might sound a lot, but you'd have to stand there for over 41 days to just get what you would get from a standard chest x-ray (assuming it retained the same level of activity, which it wouldn't since it'd have decayed to just 3.125% by then.)

It should also be noted that 3 months from now, less that 0.05% of the I-131 leaked will still be in the enviroment. Compare this to the oil from the BP spill in the Gulf....
 
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PhantomWolf said:
So I wondered how bad this was, it took a little searching, but if you were to stand right next (1cm away) to 1 litre of this water for an hour, you would receive the whooping dose of 0.0061 mSv or about 190x normal background radiation. Now that might sound a lot, but you'd have to stand there for over 41 days to just get what you would get from a standard chest x-ray (assuming it retained the same level of activity, which it wouldn't since it'd have decayed to just 3.125% by then.)

It should also be noted that 3 months from now, less that 0.05% of the I-131 leaked will still be in the enviroment. Compare this to the oil from the BP spill in the Gulf....
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Huh? Iodine 131 is highly carcinogenic. It is a very serious thing to have high concentrations of that in the water because it can be absorbed by fish which later get eaten by humans. In humans it will accumulate in the thyroid and irradiate it from the inside.

Iodine 131 was one of the most devastating elements from Chernobyl and highly linked to the consumption of radioactive milk. In a strong fish consuming country like Japan such high concentrations of iodine in the water is not something to be taken lightly nor compared to the background radiation of one liter of water. Beta radiation from iodine can barely penetrate the skin, but once inside you it can wreak havoc.
 
Java Man said:
Huh? Iodine 131 is highly carcinogenic. It is a very serious thing to have high concentrations of that in the water because it can be absorbed by fish which later get eaten by humans. In humans it will accumulate in the thyroid and irradiate it from the inside.
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Which is why people in the area get KI tablets, it prevents the I-131 building up in their systems. Ironically, it is also one of the most used theropies for Thyroid cancer, given in very high doses so that it kills the cancerous cells.

Iodine 131 was one of the most devastating elements from Chernobyl and highly linked to the consumption of radioactive milk. In a strong fish consuming country like Japan such high concentrations of iodine in the water is not something to be taken lightly nor compared to the background radiation of one liter of water. Beta radiation from iodine can barely penetrate the skin, but once inside you it can wreak havoc.
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And it should be noted that of those that got thyroid cancers from Chernobyl, over 99% was cureable, and we're talking lower amounts here. As to it getting into the fish, it'll be all but gone from the fish population in 3 months, can you say the same about mercury or oil toxins?
 
PhantomWolf said:
As to it getting into the fish, it'll be all but gone from the fish population in 3 months, can you say the same about mercury or oil toxins?
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No I can't, nor can I say that about the surfactants used to dissolve the oil so it doesn't show up on TV. Also very toxic.
 
Hey that reminds me. How do you figure the amount of radiation by distance? As in, if you are getting 3 microseverts at 500 meters, what would the dose be at 50 meters? At 5 meters? At one meter?
 
r-j said:
Hey that reminds me. How do you figure the amount of radiation by distance? As in, if you are getting 3 microseverts at 500 meters, what would the dose be at 50 meters? At 5 meters? At one meter?
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I'd guess something like square root. So 300uS at 50 or so. I don't think it will continue like that all the way to the building as closer than 50m it wouldn't be a point source. Just my guess.
 
Java Man said:
No I can't, nor can I say that about the surfactants used to dissolve the oil so it doesn't show up on TV. Also very toxic.
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Which is why of I had to choose, I'd rather be on KI tablets for 3 months to eat fish from Japan than have fish from the Gulf of Mexico anytime in the next 5-10 years.
 
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