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Merged nuclear power safe?

It's pretty amazing. Some people, if I were to believe them, would have me thinking that no matter what, radiation just isn't that big a deal. A reactor can melt down, explode, burn it doesn't matter, because it just isn't that dangerous.

Nuclear reactors don't tend to explode, well with a nuclear explosion anyway. They might erupt in a steam explosion if the pressure gets too high, aka Chernobyl. Meltdowns aren't overly dangerous to those around the plant, as long as it doesn't breach containment, and again, fire isn't a serious danger as long as the reactor is not breached and can be shutdown safely.

The biggest issue is a breach of the reactor, but even in the worse case senario (Chernobyl) we're looking at a very low death toll, and that is an estimated one over decades, so not people killed outright, but rather people's lives shortened from what they would have been, assuming they don't get killed by something else first.

This is the thing, we've seen the absolute worst case senario and compared to other industrial accidents, it wasn't actually that bad, and certainly wasn't world destroying.

Other people think it is.

Some people think nasa hoaxed the moon landings too.
 
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http://online.itp.ucsb.edu/online/plecture/bmonreal11/oh/101.html

Looking at that diagram, and then looking at reactor #3, the fuel rod pools holding the plutonium fuel have to be exposed to the air. Or damaged.

Which is what I just heard on the news. There is nothing over the fuel rod pools in reactor#3

If burning plutonium fuel rods are no big deal, why is everyone so concerned about that?

There is something over the fuel rods. It's water.

The fuel rods in there are not burning.
 
Well, didn't they keep running the other power plant at Chernobyl? I mean, it blew up, sprayed radiation around, fall out and radioactive material, and they still kept operating the plant right next door. So what's the big deal?
 
Actually, since they say almost nothing about what is happening in the plant, nobody has any idea what the measurements mean.

I just wanted to know what kind of radiation could cause high levels half a kilometer away from the source?

Who is "they"? Wiki has a pretty good summary of what has and continues to happen at the plant.

Also, define "high levels". From what I read of measurement stations in Japan, the levels are higher than average. But not high in a acute dangerous levels.

As I said, Japan and its people need to monitor radiation for decades, and that sucks.
 
There is something over the fuel rods. It's water.

The fuel rods in there are not burning.

Assuming the water levels in the spent fuel pool are normal, the rods are covered by water. The water shields the local area from radiation from the fuel rods. But if the water had dropped, it's my understanding that the exposed rods would be a gamma radiation source. Strong enough to preclude simply walking up to the pool with a hose to fill it back up.
 
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Inside of Japan, it will have an impact on people's life. They need to monitor their food and water for decades to come (for Cs-137 contamination).

I doubt that even this will even be an issue inside Japan, the currently levels of Cs-137 contamination are so low that they won't be needed to be tested that long and only in a very limited area. The biggest effect will be from those that Japan exports to due to scare-moggering.
 
Well, didn't they keep running the other power plant at Chernobyl? I mean, it blew up, sprayed radiation around, fall out and radioactive material, and they still kept operating the plant right next door. So what's the big deal?

Yes, they did. I don't think that was a pretty good idea, as the design of the Chernobyl reactor is multitudes worse than in Fukushima (no containment, possibility of unstable reactor states with no control how to get out of those safely).

But I am not in charge of this thing.
 
Assuming the water levels in the spent fuel pool are normal, the rods are covered by water. The water shields the local area from radiation from the fuel rods. But if the water had dropped, it's my understanding that the exposed rods would be a gamma radiation source. Strong enough to preclude simply walking up to the pool with a hose to fill it back up.

Can't find the link anymore, but one guy called a spent fuel pool without water a "giant gamma spotlight into the sky". Essentially, it produces a lot (LOT) of gamma radiation, but outside of the building and on the ground you're shielded by the building. But the radiation is so strong that you cannot walk up to the pool (as you say), and clean up the mess. I think burying it from the air might be the only option then. But I don't think we're there, and they try to keep water in there.

There is some fear that the zirconium cladding can burn. But that's far from certain, has never been observed, and even the models that say it can brun seem to say that the conditions for igniting are very difficult to reach in an open pool at atmospheric pressure.
 
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Nuclear reactors don't tend to explode, well with a nuclear explosion anyway. They might erupt in a steam explosion if the pressure gets too high, aka Chernobyl. Meltdowns aren't overly dangerous to those around the plant, as long as it doesn't breach containment, and again, fire isn't a serious danger as long as the reactor is not breached and can be shutdown safely.

The biggest issue is a breach of the reactor, but even in the worse case senario (Chernobyl) we're looking at a very low death toll, and that is an estimated one over decades, so not people killed outright, but rather people's lives shortened from what they would have been, assuming they don't get killed by something else first.

This is the thing, we've seen the absolute worst case senario and compared to other industrial accidents, it wasn't actually that bad, and certainly wasn't world destroying.

This bears repeating, I think, and also needs reinforcing.

See, I think that a lot of anti-nuclear people read "Chernobyl really wasn't the utter world-shattering disaster people think it was, and it's not as bad as equally big industrial accidents in other fields" and read "Chernobyl wasn't...bad.". They tend to, or give the impression they tend to, focus on the idea that we are saying it was a storm in a teacup, to use my ill-advised phrase from earlier in the thread.

They see us saying "You know, 4000 deaths and a small number of deformities and cancer cases isn't as serious as some people assume that Chernobyl was" and think we're saying it wasn't serious. This couldn't be further from the truth. Yeah, it was serious, and yes, if they are totally mismanaged, out of date or just plain dangerously designed nuclear power can be a very dangerous thing, but it isn't as serious as some people think. Chernobyl was, I believe, one of the first nuclear power plants built anywhere in the world, and as such had a very low margin of safety compared to modern plants. Equally unfortunate was that it was Soviet in design, which meant that safety probably wasn't the first priority, and standards were lax. That it went up at all was mostly due to some idiots who were supposed to be working properly but decided not to, and that it wasn't contained was a fault that to the best of my knowledge, no modern plant or any plant that may be built in the future will have.

Chernobyl. Was. Awful. It was the worst nuclear disaster so far, and is pretty much destined to be the worst nuclear disaster that has or will ever occur, and it had both a lower death toll, immediate and future combined, than an equally disastrous catastrophe at a coil or oil plant. If that doesn't hint that nuclear power is actually pretty safe, I don't know what does, quite frankly.

In the US alone, there were 437 deaths between the years of 1996 and 2009. That averages out to what, 31 deaths per year? Nuclear power has been with us for 57 years, since the Obninsk reactor went online (incidentally, it started operations in 1954 and ceased in 2002 and had a grand total of 0 accidents and 0 attributable deaths).

If we take the 31 as an average over 57 years (and that's being conservative, I believe) for deaths in the coal industry in the US alone, that leads to a total of 1767 deaths in the coal industry in one country during the time period that nuclear power has or will kill 4000. The US has one of the best safety recording in the coal industry, I believe, and even it has led to a death toll of 44.175% that of the entire world's nuclear industry. If you take other countries with similar figures and similar safety standards into account, the death toll would easily outstrip nuclear. If you take less developed and less safety concious countries into account such as China...
 
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Can't find the link anymore, but one guy called a spent fuel pool without water a "giant gamma spotlight into the sky". Essentially, it produces a lot (LOT) of gamma radiation, but outside of the building and on the ground you're shielded by the building. But the radiation is so strong that you cannot walk up to the pool (as you say), and clean up the mess. I think burying it from the air might be the only option then. But I don't think we're there, and they try to keep water in there.

There is some fear that the zirconium cladding can burn. But that's far from certain, has never been observed, and even the models that say it can brun seem to say that the conditions for igniting are very difficult to reach in an open pool at atmospheric pressure.

No need to bury the pool when simply refilling it with water would have the desired effect. From this article on NHK World it looks like they used a concrete pump truck to do exactly that.
 
Actually, since they say almost nothing about what is happening in the plant, nobody has any idea what the measurements mean.

I just wanted to know what kind of radiation could cause high levels half a kilometer away from the source?

One thing I want to add.

I have not watched or read a single report in the mainstream media outlets that correctly reported what has happened. Not - a - single - one. That includes mainstream media from the US and Germany (which are the only ones I followed closely).

The only way to get reasonable information was via the web. I had to hunt down the sites that do report well. Even so, I needed a lot of critical thinking (and reading up on my rusty nuclear physics) to separate the wheat from the overwhelming chaff.

If there was meltdown, it was a meltdown of mainstream media reporting.
 
Looking at that diagram, and then looking at reactor #3, the fuel rod pools holding the plutonium fuel have to be exposed to the air.


According to the Wikipedia page on the plant, all the reactors there except Unit #3 use low enriched uranium in the fuel rods. Unit #3 uses a small percentage (6%) of mixed oxide fuel (MOX) in the fuel rods, which is a blend of uranium and plutonium. (Only a small amount of the blend—about 7%—is plutonium; the rest is uranium.)
 
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I'm sure everyone is aware of that. Maybe you've got something special in your blood, or your skin is radiation hardened, but for the rest of us the concern is the radiation leak. The concern here is that radiation has leaked in sufficient amounts to become hazardous to human health. It's good that the structure survived, things would have been a lot worse if it hadn't. But guess what, a great deal many other buildings survived the earthquake too. Heck I'd add all Tokyo to the list. Concentrate on that which matters and quit trying to cover up with some "success story" shared with all downtown Tokyo.

More histrionics and strawmen...you don't seem interested in learning anything. I never said this was a success...but it is a fact that the safest place to be was in that plant when the earthquake and Tsunami hit.

The brunt of the Tsunami didn't hit Tokyo...so of course it survived better. If you really wan't to see some of the destruction...take a look.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Tōhoku_earthquake_and_tsunami



I do understand that the first Gen III reactors were operational in Japan in the mid 90's. That's about 15 years ago. Plenty of time to get the ball rolling with other upgrades.

You seem to have become a nuclear expert very quickly... You can't take a generation II plant and convert it to a generation III plant. It just isn't possible and I don't think you know what upgrades could be done either.

glenn
 
For some meaning of the word, 'survived'.

In this case it means that:

  • affected reactors can never be used again
  • will cost a huge sum to clean up
  • has caused a wide area to be evacuated
  • has caused food to become radiation contaminated
And all this when (fortunately) the prevailing wind was blowing the radiation off-shore, away from populated areas.

With a nuclear plant, a design basis accident being survivable without a large radiation dose to the public is the goal if an accident unfortunately occurs. So far, we are holding our own...but there are still problems. The economic fallout is secondary after the plant is stabalized. This was a beyond design basis accident and that was obviously unfortunate. However, no nuclear plant is designed to be restarted after an accident such as this.

The radiation release hasn't been catastrophic and the levels still aren't harmful. Acceptable levels for exposure are set extremely low and when you hear 100 times normal...it just isn't that much of a problem. But wew are certainly not out of the woods, but survived is an accurate characterisation.

For info, Japan lost more fossil electric stations than nuclear.

glenn
 
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Depends on the energy of the gammas and the type of concrete. Nuclear plants use a special concrete.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_protection

This article shows half thicknesses for various materials. If you have any questions, I will try and answer them.

glenn

Thanks for that! I can see that 6000 inches of air reduces gamma by half. So 500 meters of air certainly reduces the gamma radiation, so distance isn't the only factor at play.
 
The problem also is that the sources that cause evacuation of the workers ARE NOT THE REACTORS. It's the fallout that covers the ground and all objects within the exposed areas with various concentration. The radiation gets stronger towards the reactor because the density of the radioactive dust is higher, not because you're getting closer to a source of radiation. That's why they have to evacuate, wait until the dust activity is decayed, or the dust has been washed off.

But if containment wasn't breached, whence does the radiactive stuff come from ? Aside from spent fuel.
 

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