Merged nuclear power safe?

[r-j]

The thing is, you have no authority, nothing to back up what you say. She does. So when it comes to reality, her truthful story has a lot of weight, while made up fairy tales do not.

 

[Ziggurat]

The thing is, you have no authority, nothing to back up what you say. She does.

When people here try to pull an argument from authority fallacy, they usually try to mask it as something else. It's rare to see it presented so brazenly. So, congratulations on that, I guess.

So when it comes to reality, her truthful story has a lot of weight, while made up fairy tales do not.

How do you know it's true? You don't. Hell, you can't actually be sure she was even anywhere near Chernobyl. You're taking that on trust alone. Why? As far as I can tell, because she's telling you a story you already believe. I have no reason to think that if she said, "Yeah, the Soviets screwed the pooch big time, but Japan knows how to handle this", that you'd suddenly think nuclear power was OK.

Furthermore, you're extending that trust to granting her authority on something she's not actually an authority on. Her first-hand experience is with Soviet nuclear power. I've got news for you: the Soviet Union and Japan, and the west in general, are very different. That alone doesn't prove that nuclear power here is safe, but it does mean that her experience, which you're trying to use to justify your position, simply isn't applicable.

And lastly, as I already pointed out, there are aspects of her story which simply aren't credible. She may honestly believe them, but it's third-hand information as far as we can tell, and I've already given you an example where we know such information about horrific events during a catastrophe was completely false.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Of course it is, no one lives there.

excuse me?

No one lives [in the cold, hard north]! It was a joke, mate.

it's very easy to talk about safety and to promote that which is not in your own back yard.

Please. I would have nothing against moving to an area with a nuclear power plant. Heck, I'd also be in favour of tearing down the (electricity-generating) waste burning plant we have across the fjord and building a nuclear plant in its wake any day.

 

[Skwinty]

"One colleague stepped into a rainwater pool and the soles of his feet burned off inside his boots." I call bull dung. That just doesn't make sense. Maybe she honestly believes that happened, but it sounds a lot like the tales of babies being rape from post-Katrina.

I am not so sure about it being bull dung.

Consider the radiation burns suffered by site workers at Fukushima.

"It is thought that the workers ignored their dosimeters' alarm believing it to be to be false and continued working with their feet in contaminated water."


"In a related development, ...... The three workers who suffered skin burns were working on the No. 3 reactor, which is one of the clues that the vessel may have been damaged. (However, their burns could also have come from radioactive seepage from vents or valves.) It's simply not known if the No. 3 reactor vessel has been compromised.

Read more: http://ecocentric.blogs.time.com/20...and-cracked-vessels-whats-true/#ixzz1QmrsADqP


Read more: http://ecocentric.blogs.time.com/20...and-cracked-vessels-whats-true/#ixzz1Qmqh6pou
​

 

[Ziggurat]

I am not so sure about it being bull dung.

Consider the radiation burns suffered by site workers at Fukushima.

"It is thought that the workers ignored their dosimeters' alarm believing it to be to be false and continued working with their feet in contaminated water."

First off, that was not rain water. I hope it's obvious why rain water at locations away from the plant aren't likely to be as contaminated as water at the plant (which might have come from the core itself) could be. Second, from your own link, those workers were being treated because "radioactivity was discovered on their feet and legs". They were NOT being treated because they had radiation burns, but because they might get radiation burns. I've seen no reliable follow-up reports to indicate that they actually developed any burns (though I've seen initial reports that erroneously assumed that they had), but even assuming that they did, well, developing burns (which could simply be the equivalent of a light sunburn) is far from having skin "burned off inside [their] boots". Which we know didn't happen, or come close to happening. See the contrast here? Her story simply doesn't match up with events which HAVE been recorded.

 

[Skwinty]

For all we know, the rainwater could have been highly contaminated.

chernobyl did explode and scatter it's core for considerable distance.

If some one stepped in contaminated water without proper protection and the shoes and socks were wet then it is quite possible that some degree of burn may have occurred.

If that person did nothing about the situation for some time and carried on with walking about and doing whatever they were sent to do, then it would not surprise me if skin from the foot remained in the sock and shoe.

I agree that the story told by this individual is anecdotal but is not beyond the realm of the possible.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

I trust the word of somebody who was there, who has lived and knows just what she speaks of, over anyone here.

Survivors and experts are two very different things. Just that you survived a reactor meltdown doesn't make you an expert on the safety of reactors.

 

[elgarak]

For all we know, the rainwater could have been highly contaminated.

chernobyl did explode and scatter it's core for considerable distance.

If some one stepped in contaminated water without proper protection and the shoes and socks were wet then it is quite possible that some degree of burn may have occurred.

If that person did nothing about the situation for some time and carried on with walking about and doing whatever they were sent to do, then it would not surprise me if skin from the foot remained in the sock and shoe.

I agree that the story told by this individual is anecdotal but is not beyond the realm of the possible.

None of the cores in Fukushima exploded. As far as we know (pending further information), the cores were damaged and melted, but stayed within some containment. Said containment was partially damaged, which resulted in the leakage of contaminated cooling water present AT THE SITE, in particular the lower levels of the buildings. This was most certainly not rain water that was collected off-site. None of the reports I have seen (from both TEPCO, Japanese government officials and independent sources) indicate that core material left the containment (shown by the isotopes found off-site. The only isotopes found were I-131, Cd-134 and -137 and Sr-90. These are easily extrudable, water-soluble elements. If core material had left containment, one would have found other, heavier, water-insoluble isotopes. No one did [in significant enough amounts], not even independent researchers who claimed that everything TEPCO and officials reported were lies.)

 

[r-j]

Natalia Manzurova, one of the few survivors among those directly involved in the long cleanup of Chernobyl, was a 35-year-old engineer at a nuclear plant in Ozersk, Russia, in April 1986 when she and 13 other scientists were told to report to the wrecked, burning plant in the northern Ukraine.

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/03/22/chernobyl-cleanup-survivors-message-for-japan-run-away-as-qui/

You see why I don't listen to your fairy tales and lies? You can't even get your lies straight.

Are you a nuclear engineer? Of course not. Did you ever work at a reactor? No. Do you actually know anything about radiation and nuclear accidents? Of course not. But you act like you know something when you don't, and then you try to degrade people who do. Pathetic really.

 

[Ziggurat]

For all we know, the rainwater could have been highly contaminated.

Enough to do what she claimed? I don't think so. And I see no evidence or reason to think it could be contaminated to that degree.

chernobyl did explode and scatter it's core for considerable distance.

She didn't say some guy stepped on a piece of fuel (which still wouldn't do it - see below). She said he stepped in a puddle of rainwater.

If some one stepped in contaminated water without proper protection and the shoes and socks were wet then it is quite possible that some degree of burn may have occurred.

She didn't claim "some degree of burn". She claimed the skin burned off. That requires a massive radiation dose. And not just any radiation either, it would NEED to be beta and/or alpha, because neutron and gamma would produce general radiation sickness, not skin burns. Which also argues against it being from fuel itself.

Hell, it's more credible that the person simply got really bad blisters (which can indeed be made worse from wet socks) simply from walking too much. Maybe they even had blisters which got infected (which dirty water could also contribute to sans radiation), and led to raw bloody feet. There's all sorts of alternatives I can think of which might lead to someone thinking what she said happened. But what I can't think of is any credible way in which it could have actually happened the way she said it did.

I agree that the story told by this individual is anecdotal but is not beyond the realm of the possible.

It's not just anecdotal, it's not credible.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Are you a nuclear engineer? Of course not. Did you ever work at a reactor? No. Do you actually know anything about radiation and nuclear accidents?

Are you? Have you spoken to anyone who is? I have. Do you have any comments on Dr. Cuttlers remarks?

Of course not. But you act like you know something when you don't, and then you try to degrade people who do. Pathetic really.

 

[r-j]

"It's why the nuclear industry is dangerous. They want to deny the dangers."

I believe her. I don't believe you at all.

 

[Ziggurat]

Are you a nuclear engineer? Of course not.

And yet, nothing that she said had anything to do with her nuclear engineering expertise. She offered no analysis of the actual accident itself. Her warning was basically about how the government lied about the risk. Which in Chernobyl they most certainly did. But her experience with the Soviet government is neither based on any particular engineering expertise, nor very relevant to Japan which (in case you haven't noticed) isn't a communist dictatorship.

Did you ever work at a reactor?

Would it make any difference if I said yes? And why would it?

 

[r-j]

And her story doesn't even make that much sense. "One colleague stepped into a rainwater pool and the soles of his feet burned off inside his boots." I call bull dung.

Nobody cares what you think.

You call a scientists and a survivor and somebody who actually worked on a reactor disaster a liar. Who cares? Who are you? Nobody knows. Much less cares.

Sorry.

 

[Ziggurat]

"It's why the nuclear industry is dangerous. They want to deny the dangers."

I believe her. I don't believe you at all.

"The nuclear industry" is not one thing. I absolutely believe that the Soviet nuclear industry was dangerous, and denied the danger. I see no reason to conclude that she has any expertise of nuclear industries outside the Soviet Union.

You believe her because she flatters your preconceptions. And you can't back up your opinions with any actual facts. You've explicitly appealed to the fallacy of argument from authority. I don't believe you at all.

 

[r-j]

So what? Nobody cares.

 

[Ziggurat]

Nobody cares what you think.

Evidently you care what I say, or you wouldn't bother to respond. Even on this, you're not credible.

You call a scientists and a survivor and somebody who actually worked on a reactor disaster a liar.

I didn't call her a liar. She may well believe it. I wouldn't know, and I don't especially care. That doesn't make it true. Living through a disaster doesn't make a person honest or reliable, as Katrina proved.

And scientists or engineers (funny how her profession morphs to change the needs of your argument) are no more intrinsically honest than anybody else.

Who cares? Who are you? Nobody knows. Much less cares.

Sorry.

Exactly: you don't care who I am, because I'm arguing against your beliefs, but you care who she is, because she supports your beliefs. That's rather the problem.

 

[r-j]

Not to me. I'm interested in nuclear issues, safety and the truth about radioactivity. Not some nobody who lies about it.

But unlike the rest of her team members, who she said have all died from the results of radiation poisoning, and many other liquidators, she's alive.

I've read many lies from liars about how almost nobody died from Chernobyl, they repeat it like a mantra. They simply can't accept reality when it comes to nuclear accidents. They even try to besmirch somebody who was there, who lived through it. It's like they are scared of the truth.

 

[Ziggurat]

Not to me. I'm interested in nuclear issues, safety and the truth about radioactivity. Not some nobody who lies about it.

You're not interested in the truth, you're interested in opinion. Your source did not contribute a single fact about Japan, Fukushima, or the nuclear industry in the west. That's right: there isn't a single fact on those topics anywhere in there. I'm not even talking about no facts that I don't contest, I mean no facts at all.

 

[Verde]

I live just down the road from the San Onofre nuclear power plant. If I lived this close to Fukushima, I'd be deep inside the evacuation zone.

As someone who does, in fact, have nuclear power right in my own "back yard", I'm here to tell you that I fully endorse the safety talk and nuclear power promotion that is going on in this thread.

Yep.

I live downwind of the largest nuclear power plant in the country.
I have raised three boys, and now have my grandchildren living here also. None of them have multiple limbs.

There are many things that push down the quality of life here, in particular the heat and the dust. If I were King of Phoenix, and observed the brown cloud of muck that permeates the Valley, I would ban all diesel trucks from getting near here; all gasoline powered vehicles would be restricted (except for my truck, of course). All non-native vegetation would need to be eradicated (in an environmentally friendly way, of course). I haven't yet come up with a solution to the heat or the dust, however.
We'd have to shut down Cholla and Navajo, because of the crap they spew out.

Nuclear power? Not even a microsecond of concern at this house. I wish the country had more of it.

V.