Nuclear Energy - I need to vent/rant

Conservation can reduce the residential and commercial heat and electricity usage to a large degree.

The industrial sector is fairly efficient in the world now and they are not going to see much in energy reduction. You can't run a steel plant on solar power. The energy requirements for food production are enormous just to produce fertilizer. Getting products all over the world requires trucks and ships--with the increasing world population, this is going to increase in the future and there is not much efficiency gain in these areas. There is a show on TV in the US called "How its made." The show gives a synopsis of how everything from twinkies to hockey gloves are made. In every show, energy is paramount. It is that industrial sector that is most important to energy consumption.

I think we're getting to the crux of the situation here. And this is where my luddite views will come out and where many of you will simply disagree.

As you say, Glenn, commercial and residential processes are where the big savings are. We can also stop moving things (and ourselves) around so much. Industrial needs are very diverse so it's a lot more difficult to make generalizations. It's also more challenging to achieve reductions. I'm going to try to take a crack at a few suggestions in a moment, but I'll pause to recognize for a moment that this is where my priorities may diverge from most of the people here.

I would love to include a link to David Hughes's excellent diagram showing world energy use over the last century. Imagine a 43-fold increase from a little wee baseline that goes way back in history. First coal grows monstrous and levels off. Then petroleum gets introduced, gets monstrous and levels off. Then we bring in natural gas. And finally uranium. Uranium is just the tip of the steadily rising mountain. At the end of the 1800s most of our fuel was renewable, with a tiny layer of coal on top. That same absolute amount of energy we still obtain from renewables today. The only thing that's changed is that most of it is now hydroelectric where it used to be wood. Looking at that diagram it's difficult not to get struck by how unsustainable this is. It's a lot like looking at Al Gore's hockey-stick diagrams.

In the absence of David Hughes's diagram, I'm going to point you to a diagram developed by the Energy Information Administration of the United States showing world energy projections. It begins in 1980 with 283 quadrillion BTUs and projects to 702 quadrillion BTUs in 2030. That's an increase of 250% over 50 years. This is what keeping the status quo involves. This is what it would take if we insist industries continue to pursue constant steady growth.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/ieo/world.html

One thing we need to begin with is the fact that industry today is much more energy-intensive than it ever was. Hence the suggestion that we just replace the dirty fossil fuel energy that's killing us with something else that's energy intensive but doesn't have the same emissions problem, and nuclear presumably comes to mind.

I object to this for a number of reasons. I've already expressed my concerns about toxic tailings and spent fuel. But another thing is that our industry is also very resource intensive. In my lifetime, the world will not only have probably gone through the majority of its petroleum and North American natural gas, it will have also gone through most forests, all the best uranium, most of the largest fish.... In a single century we've killed so many lakes and rivers. I'm not worried about cute fuzzy animals here. I'm concerned about the livability of the planet for humans, for my grandchildren.

So I'm not in a huge hurry to make sure that our industry can keep at it, unless we can develop a way of making industry more responsible for its actions. I think of global warming as just the most critical warning sign that our relationship with the environment that sustains us is seriously dysfunctional. Anyone who wants to can bite my head off now. It seems to me more important to have breathable air and drinkable water than a monster fridge.

But I see another problem.

Replacing electricity from coal with electricity from splitting atoms is just not going to save our industrial sector if we're serious about tackling global warming. The plastics industry is huge and relies on petroleum products. Feeding ourselves relies on industry which derives fertilizer from fossil sources.

In addition, industry just uses more fuel than nuclear can provide. Replacing just the coal currently used for power generation in North America would require a tripling of the nuclear fleet. David Hughes thinks even maintaining current nuclear capacity will be difficult. But electricity is not the only energy source for industry, and many of the sources are carbon-intensive. The steel industry, for example, relies on coal.

And we still have to eliminate the fuel used for transportation -- personal, commercial and industrial.

And then we still have to account for the crazy growth patterns of 250% every half-century that current industrial models predict.

So can ALL this energy be replaced by nuclear power? I've spent time with people who lived near uranium mines and watched their communities get decimated by cancers. Yes, you can extract uranium even by grinding up granite, but imagine what that would do to the landscape. Imagine the manpower that would be required.

And even then, would it be enough?

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change recently updated their predictions to point out that the 2 degree temperature rise that would signal catastrophic impacts is now almost certainly unavoidable. This is a pretty conservative bunch. George Monbiot suggested that Canadians need to cut their emissions by 94 percent by 2030 in his book Heat. The majority would need to happen in the next decade. Now, a year later, he's saying that's probably not enough.

The fact is, we don't have economically viable thorium, breeder or fusion reactors. If there's a place for the remaining high grade uranium, it will probably be at most to replace the current aging nuclear fleet during the next decade.

In the meantime, a lot of painful cuts will have to be made, whether we want to see them or not. The only alternative is accepting even higher temperature increases. At 2 degrees some self-perpetuating cycles may already kick in. The IPCC speculates that 7 degree increases may be reached by century's end. The last time the Earth warmed by 7 degrees, the mass extinctions destroyed every land animal larger than a pig.

If we want a good shot at preventing this, we need to make massive cuts within the next few years. We can't wait around counting on a nuclear breakthrough.

I would personally like to see no more nuclear. I can't stomach the thought of imposing uranium mining on yet another community. And if massive changes are going to be made anyway, I figure we might as well do it right instead of dickering with uranium. But I can't help feeling that sitting around dreaming about fusion is keeping us from the very real and urgent need to drop emissions now, whether or not we invest in nuclear.

Now, I'm going to take a crack at making a few suggestions about what to do about industry, but I'll admit at this stage I'll be guessing and would appreciate corrections.

Not all industrial processes are streamlined. A lot use a great deal of heat or other energy or pressure. Some of this can be captured. Petroleum cracking ovens, for example, release a lot of heat. Coking coal for steel releases not only heat but also combustible gases, which are actually less harmful if burned. Unfortunately both these ideas rely on maintaining industry dependent on fossil fuels. If we want to get creative, we can start manufacturing steel in the winter in communities that can use the waste heat and turn to agriculture in the summer. Some industrial processes will go back to being done by hand. Monbiot has ideas about how to change the way we make concrete so that fewer emissions are involved. We need to make a lot fewer cars. Some industries may just die because they have no place in a low-carbon future. I think that's okay. I'm pretty sure we'll have full employment. Food will have to be grown closer to home. Economies will be more local. We'll be throwing fewer things out and fixing things more.

Go ahead, bite my head off.

The thing is, there are distinct advantages to a low-energy lifestyle. It's not something I fear. Plus, I was just sent this link to a New Scientist article headlined "Zero emissions needed to avert 'dangerous' warming" which states:

Only the total elimination of industrial emissions will succeed in limiting climate change to a 2°C rise in temperatures, according to computer analysis of climate change. Anything above this target has been identified as "dangerous" by some scientists, and the limit has been adopted by many policymakers.

http://environment.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn12775

So here's the thing. Some of the people on this forum think that low-carbon does not mean low-energy, and the most exciting prospect for maintaining high energy is nuclear. I think that nuclear is costly, unreliable and leaves a hazardous legacy for descendants we've already burdened enough. But most of all, it just can't deliver enough energy fast enough to maintain our current energy trajectory. I'm sympathetic to people who fear energy descent so much that they're willing to invest in every last scrap of energy available (though my greater sympathies are with the First Nations living among the uranium tailings who never even benefited from our high-energy party), but I think that fantasizing about a high energy future is simply a dangerous distraction.
 
Noticeably lacking from your comparison is coal consumption. Hmm...

And don't forget wood. A huge amount of wood is burnt in China which replaces the need for electricity, for heating and cooking for example. While wood can be virtually environment-neutral when managed properly, the way it is used in China, and other countries in the area, involves simply cutting down all the trees and not replacing them. China is also one of the bigest importers of wood, mainly from other countries that have serious problems with deforestation, so even the improvements in conservation within China don't help matters, they just shift the problem somewhere else. If all the wood was replaced by electricity, just how much more power would China need, and where would it come from? The answer is lots and fossil fuels.

In addition, any comparison between China and the US, or any other western country, has to take into account the social conditions. Although the US does have issues with poverty, it's not even close to China. The average Chinese citizen doesn't use less power because they are environmentally concious, it is simply that they don't have access to that amount of power and they can't afford things to use it anyway. Compare urban China with the US and I doubt Americans will look quite as insanely power hungry any more.
 
Hydro is a limited venue, really. There's only so many places you can place dams, after all.
 
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Noticeably lacking from your comparison is coal consumption. Hmm...
And don't forget wood. A huge amount of wood is burnt in China which replaces the need for electricity, for heating and cooking for example. While wood can be virtually environment-neutral when managed properly, the way it is used in China, and other countries in the area, involves simply cutting down all the trees and not replacing them. China is also one of the bigest importers of wood, mainly from other countries that have serious problems with deforestation, so even the improvements in conservation within China don't help matters, they just shift the problem somewhere else. If all the wood was replaced by electricity, just how much more power would China need, and where would it come from? The answer is lots and fossil fuels.

I only included the energy sources listed on the CIA site. I thought that using different sources, with potentially differing methodologies of data collection, would muddy the waters. I was well aware of the gap with coal, and wished it had been included. Both the US and China use a lot of coal. China uses more.

In addition, any comparison between China and the US, or any other western country, has to take into account the social conditions. Although the US does have issues with poverty, it's not even close to China. The average Chinese citizen doesn't use less power because they are environmentally concious, it is simply that they don't have access to that amount of power and they can't afford things to use it anyway.

Yes. It is an unfortunate reality that throughout the world the main difference between countries and people who burn a lot of carbon and those who don't is simply availability. But the climate doesn't care why we burn things. The climate only responds to the absolute quantity. Saying "Well, they would burn it if they could" is blaming the victim who never participated in the carbon party. It is important to me to figure out how to power down without sacrificing our social conditions. It is also important to note that there is substantial variability now among developed nations, with most of Europe coupling better social conditions than exist in North America with a substantially lower carbon footprint.

I'm all for pressuring China to do more as well. India, too. The single biggest act that would help bring them in is for the US to join the Kyoto nations and commit to timely reductions. The Chinese have already indicated that they would like to do more. Their country is already being hammered by the effects of climate change, with droughts affecting agricultural productivity. Models predict severe reductions in the flow of most of China's rivers after the meltdown of the Tibetan plateau. Pointing fingers at China is too often an excuse to do nothing ourselves. Playing a game of chicken with China benefits noone.
 
You have also portrayed the Candu reactor as a problem...it is great design with an excellent safety record and some of the best capacity factors in the industry due to its online refueling capability. It has had normal design issues and refits like any evolving technogy..however...there is nothing systemically wrong with the reactor design.

I'll quote the Pembina assessment:

The Ontario CANDU reactor fleet has been subject to severe performance and maintenance problems. Over the past decade, some Ontario facilities have had average
operating capacities below 40 per cent rather than the expected 85–90 per cent range. Reactors expected to have operational lifetimes in the range of 40 years have turned out to require major refurbishments after approximately 25 years of service. Refurbishment projects themselves have run seriously over budget and behind schedule.

Heavy reliance on coal-fired electricity to backstop under-performing or offline nuclear units has been associated with major increases in releases of greenhouse gases and other air pollutants. The shutdown of eight reactors between 1995 and 2001 under the 1997 Nuclear Asset Optimization Plan led to emissions of GHGs from the province’s coal-fired power plants increasing by a factor of 2.3, sulphur dioxide emissions by a factor of 2, and nitrogen oxide emissions by a factor of 1.7, significantly exacerbating the severe air quality problems regularly experienced in southern Ontario.

Is it a cost-effective solution?

Nuclear power generating facilities are subject to very high capital costs and long construction times relative to other electricity supply options. In addition, in Ontario there is a history of serious delays and cost overruns on nuclear generating facility projects, accounting for $15 billion of the nearly $20 billion “stranded debt” left by Ontario Hydro.

Nuclear energy also brings with it a unique set of risks, largely arising from the very high costs and levels of uncertainty involved in handling, storing and managing waste fuel and other radioactive wastes. Implementation of the Nuclear Waste Management Organization’s proposed strategy for managing waste fuel from existing reactors is estimated to be likely to have a total cost in the range of $24 billion. This would be in addition to the costs for the development and management of facilities for low and intermediate level radioactive waste and for managing waste rock and tailings at uranium mine sites. The costs of decommissioning Ontario’s existing reactors have been estimated at $7.474 billion.

Even with extensive subsidies and financial guarantees provided by governments, these costs, timelines and risks make it difficult for nuclear power projects to compete for private capital investments against potential investments that will bring much more rapid and secure returns.

Is it safe?

Much has changed in our understanding of radiation risks since the construction of Canada’s first commercial reactors in the early 1970s. For example, recent research on the effects of even very low levels of ionizing radiation suggests that no level is safe to health. The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) lists a number of radionuclides as carcinogenic to humans, including isotopes produced in uranium mining and milling, fuel production and nuclear power plant operations.

Yet despite our improved understanding of these risks, Canadian standards and practices appear to have not kept pace with this changing knowledge. It has been suggested, for example, that existing standards in Canada for cancer risks arising from radiological hazards permit much higher levels of acceptable risk than is the case for chemical and other hazards. Current Canadian standards in some areas are substantially
weaker than those in place in other comparable jurisdictions. The existing drinking water standard in Ontario for tritium (of which discharges from nuclear power plants are the primary source), for example, of 7,000 Bq/L is significantly weaker than the standards in the United States of 740 Bq/L and in the European Union of 100 Bq/L.

Workers in the mining and refining, conversion and fuel fabrication sub-sectors are also found to be routinely exposed to levels of radiation above those that would be considered acceptable to members of the general public. There is a history of significant occupational health effects, particularly elevated incidences of lung cancer, among uranium miners attributed to radon exposure. Increased mortality among uranium miners is also attributed to exposure to silica, solvents, asbestos and radiation.

As well, substantial health risks have been identified in relation to the consumption of certain types of“country” food, particularly caribou, in the vicinity of uranium mine/mill operations as a result of contamination by radionuclides.

While nuclear generating facility operators argue that the levels of public exposure to radiation arising from facility operations are trivial in comparison to other sources, recent studies suggest that health impacts of low-level radiation exposure may be more significant than previously thought, and that children and infants may be particularly at risk from such exposures.

Nuclear generating facilities are additionally subject to uniquely severe accident and security risks. A serious accident or incident could result in the release of large amounts of radioactive material to the atmosphere, which could be distributed over a large area. By comparison, the impacts of major incidents or accidents at facilities employing other generating technologies would be short term and largely limited to the facility site itself. It has been estimated that the monetized value of the off-site environmental, health and economic impacts of a major accident at the Darlington generating facility east of the City of Toronto, for example, would exceed $1 trillion (1991 $Cdn).

For the full source, go here:

http://pubs.pembina.org/reports/Nuclear_web.pdf
 
I think we're getting to the crux of the situation here. And this is where my luddite views will come out and where many of you will simply disagree.

As you say, Glenn, commercial and residential processes are where the big savings are. We can also stop moving things (and ourselves) around so much. Industrial needs are very diverse so it's a lot more difficult to make generalizations. It's also more challenging to achieve reductions. I'm going to try to take a crack at a few suggestions in a moment, but I'll pause to recognize for a moment that this is where my priorities may diverge from most of the people here.

I would love to include a link to David Hughes's excellent diagram showing world energy use over the last century. Imagine a 43-fold increase from a little wee baseline that goes way back in history. First coal grows monstrous and levels off. Then petroleum gets introduced, gets monstrous and levels off. Then we bring in natural gas. And finally uranium. Uranium is just the tip of the steadily rising mountain. At the end of the 1800s most of our fuel was renewable, with a tiny layer of coal on top. That same absolute amount of energy we still obtain from renewables today. The only thing that's changed is that most of it is now hydroelectric where it used to be wood. Looking at that diagram it's difficult not to get struck by how unsustainable this is. It's a lot like looking at Al Gore's hockey-stick diagrams.

In the absence of David Hughes's diagram, I'm going to point you to a diagram developed by the Energy Information Administration of the United States showing world energy projections. It begins in 1980 with 283 quadrillion BTUs and projects to 702 quadrillion BTUs in 2030. That's an increase of 250% over 50 years. This is what keeping the status quo involves. This is what it would take if we insist industries continue to pursue constant steady growth.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/ieo/world.html

One thing we need to begin with is the fact that industry today is much more energy-intensive than it ever was. Hence the suggestion that we just replace the dirty fossil fuel energy that's killing us with something else that's energy intensive but doesn't have the same emissions problem, and nuclear presumably comes to mind.

I object to this for a number of reasons. I've already expressed my concerns about toxic tailings and spent fuel. But another thing is that our industry is also very resource intensive. In my lifetime, the world will not only have probably gone through the majority of its petroleum and North American natural gas, it will have also gone through most forests, all the best uranium, most of the largest fish.... In a single century we've killed so many lakes and rivers. I'm not worried about cute fuzzy animals here. I'm concerned about the livability of the planet for humans, for my grandchildren.

So I'm not in a huge hurry to make sure that our industry can keep at it, unless we can develop a way of making industry more responsible for its actions. I think of global warming as just the most critical warning sign that our relationship with the environment that sustains us is seriously dysfunctional. Anyone who wants to can bite my head off now. It seems to me more important to have breathable air and drinkable water than a monster fridge.

But I see another problem.

Replacing electricity from coal with electricity from splitting atoms is just not going to save our industrial sector if we're serious about tackling global warming. The plastics industry is huge and relies on petroleum products. Feeding ourselves relies on industry which derives fertilizer from fossil sources.

In addition, industry just uses more fuel than nuclear can provide. Replacing just the coal currently used for power generation in North America would require a tripling of the nuclear fleet. David Hughes thinks even maintaining current nuclear capacity will be difficult. But electricity is not the only energy source for industry, and many of the sources are carbon-intensive. The steel industry, for example, relies on coal.

And we still have to eliminate the fuel used for transportation -- personal, commercial and industrial.

And then we still have to account for the crazy growth patterns of 250% every half-century that current industrial models predict.

So can ALL this energy be replaced by nuclear power? I've spent time with people who lived near uranium mines and watched their communities get decimated by cancers. Yes, you can extract uranium even by grinding up granite, but imagine what that would do to the landscape. Imagine the manpower that would be required.

And even then, would it be enough?

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change recently updated their predictions to point out that the 2 degree temperature rise that would signal catastrophic impacts is now almost certainly unavoidable. This is a pretty conservative bunch. George Monbiot suggested that Canadians need to cut their emissions by 94 percent by 2030 in his book Heat. The majority would need to happen in the next decade. Now, a year later, he's saying that's probably not enough.

The fact is, we don't have economically viable thorium, breeder or fusion reactors. If there's a place for the remaining high grade uranium, it will probably be at most to replace the current aging nuclear fleet during the next decade.

In the meantime, a lot of painful cuts will have to be made, whether we want to see them or not. The only alternative is accepting even higher temperature increases. At 2 degrees some self-perpetuating cycles may already kick in. The IPCC speculates that 7 degree increases may be reached by century's end. The last time the Earth warmed by 7 degrees, the mass extinctions destroyed every land animal larger than a pig.

If we want a good shot at preventing this, we need to make massive cuts within the next few years. We can't wait around counting on a nuclear breakthrough.

I would personally like to see no more nuclear. I can't stomach the thought of imposing uranium mining on yet another community. And if massive changes are going to be made anyway, I figure we might as well do it right instead of dickering with uranium. But I can't help feeling that sitting around dreaming about fusion is keeping us from the very real and urgent need to drop emissions now, whether or not we invest in nuclear.

Now, I'm going to take a crack at making a few suggestions about what to do about industry, but I'll admit at this stage I'll be guessing and would appreciate corrections.

Not all industrial processes are streamlined. A lot use a great deal of heat or other energy or pressure. Some of this can be captured. Petroleum cracking ovens, for example, release a lot of heat. Coking coal for steel releases not only heat but also combustible gases, which are actually less harmful if burned. Unfortunately both these ideas rely on maintaining industry dependent on fossil fuels. If we want to get creative, we can start manufacturing steel in the winter in communities that can use the waste heat and turn to agriculture in the summer. Some industrial processes will go back to being done by hand. Monbiot has ideas about how to change the way we make concrete so that fewer emissions are involved. We need to make a lot fewer cars. Some industries may just die because they have no place in a low-carbon future. I think that's okay. I'm pretty sure we'll have full employment. Food will have to be grown closer to home. Economies will be more local. We'll be throwing fewer things out and fixing things more.

Go ahead, bite my head off.

The thing is, there are distinct advantages to a low-energy lifestyle. It's not something I fear. Plus, I was just sent this link to a New Scientist article headlined "Zero emissions needed to avert 'dangerous' warming" which states:



http://environment.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn12775

So here's the thing. Some of the people on this forum think that low-carbon does not mean low-energy, and the most exciting prospect for maintaining high energy is nuclear. I think that nuclear is costly, unreliable and leaves a hazardous legacy for descendants we've already burdened enough. But most of all, it just can't deliver enough energy fast enough to maintain our current energy trajectory. I'm sympathetic to people who fear energy descent so much that they're willing to invest in every last scrap of energy available (though my greater sympathies are with the First Nations living among the uranium tailings who never even benefited from our high-energy party), but I think that fantasizing about a high energy future is simply a dangerous distraction.

I agree with most of what you posted here. I have been following the energy industry since my college days...however, I looked at nuclear as a method to contribute to the worlds energy needs with less harm to the environment than other sources. Nuclear has shown to be safe and environmentally friendly in my opinion--which we can agree to disagree on.

The waste produce from other heavy industries can be enormous---and where most nuclear waste will be gone in about 300 years--a lot of chemical waste is forever. When I worked at a nuke plant in Louisiana, I was very fearful of the plants around me. Briefly: There was a monsanto plant that used to make agent orange, a fertilizer plant that used amonia and chlorine in its process, a union carbide ethylene glycol plant that had a couple of toxic explosions that prevented me from going to work. I felt like I was running a gauntlet just going to work.

With all the hype over nuclear plants, less than 100 people have died--including chernobyl--from nuclear related accidents. No other industry comes close to that. Issues associated with nuclear power get overly amplified--reporting requirements for the industry are extreme and detailed. And they should be. This puts nuclear issues on the front page more often and people opposed to nuclear power will focus only on the negative aspects. Since the majority of the population does not understand how a nuclear plant is operated, undue fear is the norm. Except in France. They put an education system together that kept the people informed and have a much greater acceptance of nuclear power.

Nuclear power has high upfront costs, but very low fuel cost. That makes it competitive. However, I think they are the safest method of producing large scale electricity...and the record supports that. Nuclear power won't be able to solve all the worlds energy issues...no one should claim that. It will take 25 year or so to redevelop the industry in the US...however, the technology is available and competitive as other countries have shown.

If an earthquake comes, I want to be in a nuclear plant...it would be the safest place.

From an engineering basis, thermodynamics rules....to do any type of work, we must be able to raise the temperature of something and then cool it off. If we don't have energy, we don't have civilization.

glenn
 
Let me just ask one question: Does anyone have any ideas for carbon-free energy that are not nuclear-based and which can provide the energy currently needed by civilization?

In the US we need hundreds of gigawatts. In the world we need several terawatts. In the future, at the rate things are going, we'll need a good 15-20 terawatts of energy.

You can conserve all you want. Switch to compact florescents, go nuts with insulation and then we may need a few gigawatts less, but we will still need LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of power.

As far as I can tell, there are only two methods of providing this which are CO2-free [yes, we all know that they produce co2 in the building process and from incidentals, such as plant workers driving to work and so on] Nuclear can do it and hydroelectric can.

Unfortionately, we've run out of rivers. That leaves one.

Unless somebody can propose another???

I might add that the largest solar power station is located in Germany. It produces 87 megawatts under ideal conditions. That's rather small. But that's just ideal conditions. It averages out to producing the equivelent of 4 megawatts continuously.

4 megawatts: That's one single good sized locomotive. So running the solar plant is roughly equivalent to taking one locomotive out of service somewhere in the world at any given time.

Cost: About a half a billion dollars.

One of the larger wind farms in the US is Maple Ridge Windfarm. It takes up about 12,000 acres in upstate New York. It cost about about $550,000 to build. it produces about 300 megawatts during good conditions. It produces more like 240 during average conditions. It produces as little as 60-80 megawatts during unfavorable conditions, such as a stalled front.

The cost of maintaining the 195 turbines, each 300 feet tall and and with 130 foot blades is enough to make the cost of generating electricity at the facility more expensive than burning coal - at least before government subsidies and tax write-offs.

The facility is actually located in one of the "best" areas on the eastern seaboard for wind power, because it has decent reliable sustained winds.

For reference, the nuclear plane down the road from me has been cranking out about 2.2 gigawatts for the past 20 years.

I've seen estimates that put wind and solar ABOVE nuclear for secondary CO2 emissions. Of course, this is somewhat a matter of how you generate the energy which you use to enrich the urnaium or to fabricate the solar panels or wind geneators and to produce the stuff that they all consume, such as lube for the wind turbines, replacement parts, donuts for the employees to eat and so on.
 
I'll quote the Pembina assessment:



For the full source, go here:

http://pubs.pembina.org/reports/Nuclear_web.pdf

The data selected is cherry-picked to present only one side of the equation. The statement about capacity factor is just not correct. True, there have been some older Candu plants that have had low capacity factors. Such things are common as a technology develops. The facts are that nuclear power plants have better capacity factors than coal or gas fired plants. Candu plants have a combined lifetime capacity factor of about 80% and the Candu 6 generation have CFs of close to 85% and are typically the highest in the world. In the US...nuke plants have a installed capacity of about 12-14% of the grid total but supply 20% of the electriciy due to their high capacity factor. The arguement is truly a non-starter as nuclear plants world wide have proven track records of supplying electricity. Now, one can single out a plant that is shut down longterm for design modification or refit and that plant will show a low CF. But that is not evidence. Us plants had low capacity factors while doing TMI retrofits. They improved after the changes were made.

One can see from this link how nukes do best in comparison to other forms of electricity.

http://www.cns-snc.ca/media/reliability/reliability.html

And here is a brief overview of how nuclear plant performance has steadily improved in the US. And this is typical world wide. As the technology has matured, the problems get solved.

http://www.nmcco.com/education/facts/business/perform.htm


I have to say that I don't know much about the hazards associated with uranium mining. So I can't respond at this time. However, uranium ore is a known thing and I would believe that the technology is available to deal with it.

Finally, the arguement that nuclear takes too much time to built before the plant hits the line is short sighted. Just because an efficient energy system cannot be brought online quickly should not be cause for abandoning it. It is short term thinking that has caused problems. We need long-term solutions. With reprocessing and breeder reactors, nuclear can provide energy for about 1000 years. However, I am hoping fusion has a shot before then...

glenn
 
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For reference, the nuclear plane down the road from me has been cranking out about 2.2 gigawatts for the past 20 years.

I didn't know New York had gone to nuclear planes. Amazing power output too. Before the nuclear plane, a top secret power generation down the road, New York only had, well, this -
There are 6 licensed commercial nuclear reactors in New York. Half of the reactors are of the boiling water type (BWR), including the pair at Nine Mile Point and the lone reactor at the James A. Fitzpatrick power plant. Together, these total 2,468 (MW(e)capacity. The other three reactors, Indian Point 1 and 2 and the Ginna unit, are pressurized light water reactors (PWR) total 2,600 MW(e) capacity.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/nuclear/page/at_a_glance/states/statesny.html

Obviously we need more nuclear planes. Just one can equal the output of three Nuclear Power plants! Technology! Everybody should get one of them super cool nuclear planes.

Oh, and those dumb wind things, each one only powers 500 homes on a good day. Cost to build one, 1.5 million dollars. Income from each one, $600,000 to a Million dollars each year? (That figure is just an estimate) They sure must be built bad. If it cost so much to keep them running that you can't make a profit off of them. Ten years of wind power, 6 to 10 million dollars. Cost of tower - 1.5 million. Damn, they must be working on them all the time to spend that much on them. In ten years they spend at least 6 million dollars to just keep em running.

No wonder they only built 195 of them. Lets see, how about some math.

Cost to build, $550,000. Income each year, around 170 million. Low ball figure. It could be wrong, could be more, could be less.

Hmm... gosh, it seems almost like you could make money off of them things, if the service costs weren't so dang high and stuff.
 
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sorry. Nuclear *plant. And it's in Connecticut. Well first of all "On a good day"

And I detest this whole "X number of homes" bull. 500 homes would assume 3 kilowatts per home. Assuming the wind is blowing pretty damn good then that would be enough for 500 homes at 3kw each.

Of course, if it's summer, a good sized air conditioner could use a good kilowatt right there. Now if somebody has a well pump and they're watching TV... uh oh.... we could be past that 3kw.

I prefer to use a chart like this: http://www.depletedcranium.com/statsvis/energy.htm

Because it actually tells you what that power rating is equivalent. Considering that "homes" vary a hell of a lot and that residential is only one portion of the power usage.

Can you make money on wind? Possibly if you're sitting on 20,000 acres of land which is well suited for it. Considering subsidies and such as well.

I think that 600,000 dollar a year estimate is EXTREMELY large. I will do more research, but if wind power were actually so profitable they'd be popping up left and right without the need for extreme government subsidies.
 
I'm starting to suspect that there is some serious profit in alternative energy. You got Government tax credits, low interest financing, and quick return on the investment. Compared to some huge lag time with Nuclear Energy.

Not having to pay for fuel, that almost seems like a good deal. Money wise. How many people do you have to pay for a wind farm? Compared to a Power Plant?

Overhead might be real low. Put up another tower, you get more money. Now maybe the wind isn't all that great, the income is a lot lower. Even at a lower figure, say half a million a year, you still start making cash right away, as soon as the tower is up. Total cost of a tower, say 2.5 million, which obviously is profit for somebody right up front. It would only be five years before you pay for the capital outlay, another two years for interest, maybe less, then it is profit. I really doubt it cost half a million a year to service the towers.

So maybe the companies putting up all those wind towers actually know something about business. Same for the large scale solar plants being built. I'm just thinking out loud here. But it might be profit driving the alternatives.

Especially with France facing a trillion dollar debt to rebuild or refurbish all the Nuclear plants going off line in 2010.

Who knows.
 
Hey, I'm just going with what is published, It could all be a pack of lies. You know, like the ones about how cheap and safe Nuclear power plants are. Even at a much lower figure, say 200 homes for a tower, it is still a money machine, churning out profit.

I low balled all the figures, and have no idea what the costs are, after construction. But I know about loans and interest. If you can repay a huge loan faster, that is money in the bank. Nuclear Power Plants are very very expensive, and cost a lot for fuel, even though it is less than coal or oil, it still adds up each year. Overhead is high, and it takes a long time to repay the investment.
 
I didn't know New York had gone to nuclear planes. Amazing power output too. Before the nuclear plane, a top secret power generation down the road, New York only had, well, this -
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/nuclear/page/at_a_glance/states/statesny.html

Obviously we need more nuclear planes. Just one can equal the output of three Nuclear Power plants! Technology! Everybody should get one of them super cool nuclear planes.

Oh, and those dumb wind things, each one only powers 500 homes on a good day. Cost to build one, 1.5 million dollars. Income from each one, $600,000 to a Million dollars each year? (That figure is just an estimate) They sure must be built bad. If it cost so much to keep them running that you can't make a profit off of them. Ten years of wind power, 6 to 10 million dollars. Cost of tower - 1.5 million. Damn, they must be working on them all the time to spend that much on them. In ten years they spend at least 6 million dollars to just keep em running.

No wonder they only built 195 of them. Lets see, how about some math.

Cost to build, $550,000. Income each year, around 170 million. Low ball figure. It could be wrong, could be more, could be less.

Hmm... gosh, it seems almost like you could make money off of them things, if the service costs weren't so dang high and stuff.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3406.html

well, they are quite useful, but for a different purpose

glenn
 
Hey, I'm just going with what is published, It could all be a pack of lies. You know, like the ones about how cheap and safe Nuclear power plants are. Even at a much lower figure, say 200 homes for a tower, it is still a money machine, churning out profit.

I low balled all the figures, and have no idea what the costs are, after construction. But I know about loans and interest. If you can repay a huge loan faster, that is money in the bank. Nuclear Power Plants are very very expensive, and cost a lot for fuel, even though it is less than coal or oil, it still adds up each year. Overhead is high, and it takes a long time to repay the investment.


Yes, there might be some profit in it. That doesn't actually mean that it has any hope of doing better than maybe 10% of baseload. Also, there's only so many places which are that good for wind power.

The cost of fuel for a nuclear plant is actually quite low. It's only about 25% of the opperating cost of the pant and I've seen it as being less than 20% of the cost of coal.

Building the plant tends to be expensive. That's really the problem. Once paid off and built they generate a lot of profit.

If you want to see how nuclear reactors can be built quickly, efficiently, relatively inexpensively and provide lots of energy, the US Navy would be the place to look.


Texas has built wind farms faster than any other state in the US. And they have plenty of land with good steady winds. Despite this, they still are building coal fired plants, because all that wind power is not enough to keep up with growth.
 
That isn't true. They need power plants for peak loads, not year round.

Tom Smith, director of environmental group Public Citizen's Texas office, said he would argue that studies show what the state needs most is peak power plants. Those are smaller plants that can be turned on to meet the power demand on the hottest days of the year, as opposed to big power plants that operate seven days of the week.

He added that when carefully analyzing the growth and demand of electricity, the cheapest way to provide the energy needed for the future is through energy efficiency, not more power plants. Smith says studies show that such measures cost two-fifths less than the cost of building a coal plant, not counting the environmental costs of operating a coal plant.
http://dallas.bizjournals.com/dallas/stories/2007/04/02/daily22.html?t=printable

Of course he might be one of them Greens, and he just hates the idea of coal. But the figures on conservation are valid. It cost a lot less to spend on efficiency than on a big old Power Plant.

Looking at the current wind power in Texas, http://www.awea.org/projects/texas.html it becomes obvious that not only is there a lot of power in wind, but that Power Companies are putting up wind farms. Lots of them.

Look at Horse Hollow Wind Energy Center, owned by FPL Energy, it puts out 735.5 MW??? WTF?? It isn't easy finding the facts on the money, but it really looks like wind is quick return high profit stuff. That goes against everything we have been told, how unpractical wind is.

What next? We find out solar is actually profitable too?
 
Let me just ask one question: Does anyone have any ideas for carbon-free energy that are not nuclear-based and which can provide the energy currently needed by civilization?

Define "need".
 
No need to. Solar can provide all the power "needed". It is the cost and storage problem that has been the obstacle. More sunlight falls on the roof of a house each day than the house can use. Add in the garage, the driveway, parking lots, there is far more energy than we could use. It is being able to afford it that is preventing solving the energy problem.

Nanosolar is doing a good job of solving one problem.

Yes, yes, northern climates that don't get sun is a real problem. But problems can be solved. There is way more energy coming from the sun than we need. No matter how you define "need".
 

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