Nuclear Energy - I need to vent/rant

If you can't tell where this is going, I'm not sure what to say. It was rather obvious.

So are you saying that it's not possible for nuclear energy to get safer as time goes along? Are you saying that it's innately different than coal or fossil fuels?
 
If you can't tell where this is going, I'm not sure what to say. It was rather obvious.

So are you saying that it's not possible for nuclear energy to get safer as time goes along? Are you saying that it's innately different than coal or fossil fuels?
Oh. The reason I was confused was your first question. Have fossil fuel plants gotten safer? Not really. If that's the basis for your confidence in new nuclear plants, then I'd say I'm more worried about nuclear than I was. I would hope that nuclear has made far more gains in safety than fossil fuel plants have.
 
Well, evidence would tell you that they already have, if all you're using is Chernobyl as a starting point.
 
Evidence?

Seriously, I want some serious evidence that any country is using only 100% solar panels and have entirely replaced fossil fuels and nuclear energy. If you can, I'd eat my hat and praise solar.

Especially if you could demonstrate that wind, solar, and geothermal could go from 0.4% of the world's energy supply to even some number like 20% to 30%...

...But as long as it can't replace it 100%, there's still a place for nuclear energy, I'm sorry to say. Sorry, but that's how it is.
I'm not optimistic that nuclear could fill the void either. Nuclear is responsible for something like 5% of current global energy sources, about the same as all renewables. Expanding this would involve moving to thorium, breeder reactors or fusion. Solar PV is a much more mature and economical technology than any of these, and it is by no means the only renewable around. It isn't even the best.
 
Well, evidence would tell you that they already have, if all you're using is Chernobyl as a starting point.
I wish you'd stop insisting that I see Chernobyl as a baseline.

No, I hope that current reactors are designed so that they properly shut down in a blackout unlike the ones in Ontario did. I hope that they have quadruple redundant systems sensitive not just to blackouts but to seismic shifts and break-ins.

10 years ago some activists entered an Ontario reactor by canoe. I have it on good authority that there are now improvements in the form of a chain-link fence across the water. That's not really good enough.

You asked:

Are you saying that it's innately different than coal or fossil fuels?

My answer is I sure as hell hope so.
 
Air conditioning and heating can be virtually eliminated with proper insulation.

Uh, no, they can't. Not even close. Especially in places like Arizona. Decrease? Sure. Eliminate? Not a chance in hell. And you won't even get people to cut it very deeply at this point either, because significant advances at this point require either massive capital investments which people can't afford or things like eliminating windows in houses. And I'm sorry, but getting rid of the windows in my house IS a decrease in my standard of living.

I know that large energy demands are attributable to pumping water to and from buildings. Growth here is disproportionately large, since cities tend to grow out from water sources, increasing the distance water needs to travel to get to new developments. Enormous reductions are possible.

How? By building lots of new resevoirs? Not going to happen.

If you read George Monbiot's "Heat", you get a very good description of today's supermarkets, with decorative lighting to enhance the appearance of food. Displays also take up space, increasing space conditioning costs and putting pressure on real estate. Very little of this contributes to measurable lifestyle improvement.

Measurable for whom? If the grocer is turning a bigger profit, then it sure as hell affects his lifestyle. And if he's not turning a bigger profit, he wouldn't be doing it.

Refrigeration accounts for 15% of a household's average energy use. The average refrigerator today is much more energy efficient than its ancestor, but it is also much larger. In 1947, the average refrigerator held less than 10 cubic feet. Today's average is well over double at 23 cubic feet even though the average family is smaller. If we store the same amount of food in a larger refrigerator, the refrigerator has to work harder.

And if we're storing more food? What then? Reducing the frequency of trips to the supermarket reduces energy consumption. Make refrigerators smaller, and you're likely to create unintended consequences.

It's not improving our lives. If we're storing more food, it's either going to waste or it's going to waist.

Well, no. We could simply be storing things that previously we would buy more frequently (milk, for example) or even things we might have simply done without (fresh fruits and juices). People are buying large refrigerators because they want them. Guess what will happen if you mandate that all refrigerators be 10 cubic feet instead of 20? People will just buy two. Frankly, the idea that you can walk around telling people what they need and what they don't need is ridiculous. But then, I guess not everyone believes in the concept of freedom or limited government. News flash: it's not the liberal democracies and capitalist societies which have the worst energy efficiencies, it's authoritarian states and centrally-planned economies.

People now illuminate their pictures, their closets, their counters, their cabinets. I have a friend who bought an energy-efficient refrigerator that, to his frustration, came with 3 incandescent lightbulbs.

The horror. Because those lightbulbs are going to dominate its energy usage, right?

Computers are getting more and more efficient. Enormous reductions are possible.

And they all involve tradeoffs (either lower computing power or more expensive manufacturing techniques) which some people aren't willing to make.

And then there are the hundreds of useless gadgets.

And god knows, the government is really who we want to be telling us what's a useful gadget and what's a useless one, and therefore which ones we're allowed to use and which we cannot. Thanks but no thanks, big brother.
 
I'm not optimistic that nuclear could fill the void either. Nuclear is responsible for something like 5% of current global energy sources, about the same as all renewables.
Renewables are responsible for .4%. Nuclear Energy is over 6%. Not quite comparable.

Nuclear also has relatively few plants. If we use breeder reactors, thorium, and various other potential energy sources, it can take up a lot more.

Expanding this would involve moving to thorium, breeder reactors or fusion. Solar PV is a much more mature and economical technology than any of these, and it is by no means the only renewable around. It isn't even the best.
Y'know, I see claims like this thrown around a lot. Can you back that up? "More economical"? How do you define that?
 
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Uh, no, they can't. Not even close. Especially in places like Arizona. Decrease? Sure. Eliminate? Not a chance in hell. And you won't even get people to cut it very deeply at this point either, because significant advances at this point require either massive capital investments which people can't afford or things like eliminating windows in houses. And I'm sorry, but getting rid of the windows in my house IS a decrease in my standard of living.
I lived in Brazil. No air conditioning is not only possible, it's more comfortable than the modern air conditioned house if done properly. And it's routinely done properly even by poor people in countries where energy is too expensive, too erratic or unavailable.

Eliminating windows is not part of the process. You need expansive windows to cool at night. You just need proper shading and appropriate walls.
 
Quote:
I know that large energy demands are attributable to pumping water to and from buildings. Growth here is disproportionately large, since cities tend to grow out from water sources, increasing the distance water needs to travel to get to new developments. Enormous reductions are possible.
How? By building lots of new resevoirs? Not going to happen.

Sorry I didn't explain better. The amount of water we move is many times the amount we need. In large cities a quarter of the water can be lost to leaks. It can end up eroding the ground under roadways or causing other problems.

There is an urban house near where I live that is entirely off grid and gets its water from rain. That water is used for cooking. It's then recycled for showering and clothes washing before being used to flush toilets. Water from the roof is used for watering plants. Human waste along with residual water is anaerobically digested automatically into high-grade fertilizer, so no waste water has to be pumped back. I've been in this home. It's comfortable. The people who own it are a professional working couple. It's not a hardship.

But if you're not prepared to go this far, we can halve the water being pumped by draining roof water to gardens instead of sewers and using chlorinated city water just for cooking and drinking. Greywater can do the rest.

The side benefit of this approach is that urban rivers are revitalized when they don't get storm events delivered overnight.

It's a win-win idea.
 
Luddite said:
But if you're not prepared to go this far, we can halve the water being pumped by draining roof water to gardens instead of sewers and using chlorinated city water just for cooking and drinking. Greywater can do the rest.
True enough, we use rain water for our plants here in Germany. People are concerned involving recycling, water, and energy. I can go with small measures like this. I won't pretend that it will make a huge difference overall, though.

But you'll have to pry my computer from my cold, dead hands.
 
And god knows, the government is really who we want to be telling us what's a useful gadget and what's a useless one, and therefore which ones we're allowed to use and which we cannot. Thanks but no thanks, big brother.

I would want to leave a great deal of personal freedom to the individual. I would not mandate refrigerator size. I would price energy in a way that included all externalities and let the chips fall where they may. I'm only saying that the technological capabilities can enable us all to choose to live comfortably with much less energy.

If the price of nuclear energy included decommissioning costs, insurance and storage for centuries if not millenia, the proper disposal of uranium tailings as well as externalities such as health and environmental impacts, many people would discover that owning a refrigerator twice the size that they needed was a luxury they didn't want so very much.

And one thing you're missing when you talk about "big brother" is that when the government decides to build a nuclear plant it is no less surely determining our future for us. In this forum, most people would be in favour of that decision, but among the public I talk to, people ask all the time what they can do to reduce their energy consumption so that we don't have to build out new generation. By insisting on nuclear, you're condemning them to the risks and effects of a high energy future without their approval.
 
health and environmental impacts? Is there evidence that this is a major issue?

The storage is no big deal. I can't emphasize this enough.

Environmental impacts:
http://www.freedomforfission.org.uk/saf/pollution.html

"Storage of all that waste":

http://www.freedomforfission.org.uk/cyc/waste.html

For an idea of what this means, consider the American nuclear power output for 2005, which amounted to around 90 GW.yr. The volume of high level waste as spent fuel produced is therefore around 90m³. This means that almost a decades worth of high level waste from the entire American civil reactor fleet could fit into a single Boeing 777 freighter such as one based on the medium capacity aircraft shown in figure 1 (getting the aircraft airborne with that load is another matter however). So Air France's order for 5 Boeing 777Fs is sufficient to store the spent fuel produced by the US reactor fleet over its entire lifetime.

Really, if people keep making these claims, I'm going to have to ask them to back it up with real, hard data. Or else it's just conjecture at best, and outright dishonest at worst.
 
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Renewables are responsible for .4%. Nuclear Energy is over 6%. Not quite comparable.
I think you're confusing renewables with non-hydro renewables (You may also be discounting wood, I'm not sure). It's a fair comparison, because there's not much room for growth in hydro, and pretty much none in wood if we still want to call it renewable. But the traditional comparison of the two puts them as roughly equal.
books.google.com/books?id=jRnHMwBQEnoC&pg=PA120&sig=lJTOyph3L1XF4uW1VQB785K5wys#PPA128,M1
 
I'm talking about geothermal, solar, and wind. You know, the one where people seem to get off praising right and left. Didn't know you were including hydroelectric power and wood power. Sorry.

Sure, the main argument I hear is, "Oh yes! But the technology will improve and can only get better!" Well, sure... but even at a 100% increase of production, that moves it from .4 to .8% of the world's energy needs. 500% will put it at 2%, which is still asking quite a bit... and isn't enough to surpass nuclear as it exists today.

You'd need a 1625% increase in the effectiveness of the three technologies, which is asking quite a bit. Possible? Maybe. But if you're going to do away with nuclear altogether, then you've effectively changed from 6.5% + .4% to 6.5%, causing a LOSS of energy efficiency.

Quite frankly, I think that we shouldn't do away with nuclear altogether -- nor should we do away with solar, wind, or geothermal. They all have their place.

Nuclear can have a bigger share of the pie, and so can environmental. There's more advantages than disadvantages from everything that I've seen. Quite frankly, we need to remove our dependence on fossil fuels, a non-renewable resource. Sure, the resources for nuclear energy are non-renewable as well, but there's methods of reprocessing and the like that can make it last even longer. Even if the projected 50,000 years is over-the-top, even a 500 year lifespan is worthwhile, and a 5000 lifespan gives us PLENTY of time to come up with better alternatives.
 
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The storage is no big deal. I can't emphasize this enough.

I don't think anyone thinks the size of the waste is a problem. The problem is that it's hazardous waste that remains hazardous for a long time. We have a special commission in Canada to decide what to do with our nuclear waste. They've been thinking it over for several decades and haven't come up with any smart ideas.

Meanwhile, I understand that nuclear waste in Russia has gone missing. Also in some cases they've lost track of where they put it. That's hard for me to dismiss as "no problem".
 
I don't think anyone thinks the size of the waste is a problem. The problem is that it's hazardous waste that remains hazardous for a long time. We have a special commission in Canada to decide what to do with our nuclear waste. They've been thinking it over for several decades and haven't come up with any smart ideas.

Meanwhile, I understand that nuclear waste in Russia has gone missing. Also in some cases they've lost track of where they put it. That's hard for me to dismiss as "no problem".

Solid waste from coal burning, which includes the permanently toxic metals mercury, arsenic and selenium, is produced a thousand times faster. This cannot, by any standard, be characterised as fit for human consumption either. It is however, not subject to the same stringent controls and accounting as nuclear waste is. Because of its large quantity, to impose similarly proportionate controls would be prohibitive. In addition, fossil fuel burning also releases large gaseous emissions into the atmosphere including sulphur dioxide and nitrogen oxides as well as particulates.

It should also be remembered that radioisotopes decay exponentially. Spent fuel does not remain glowing green for ten thousand years at which point it stops being significantly radioactive. Throughout the millennia, it is continually decaying, becoming less and less radioactive, less and less hazardous, as time goes on. And because the decay is exponential, most of it happens in the early stages so that the majority of time period is spent at a significantly lower level of activity than at initial disposal and in fact a level that is not especially hazardous at all. Compare this to those mercury and arsenic solid wastes from coal burning, which will be just as hazardous in ten thousand years as they are today.

However, it is of course the case that regulatory agencies are never happy with that, particularly when nuclear power comes into the mix, which is why agencies like the EPA demand that any methods of spent fuel disposal be able to contain the material for at least 10,000 years, even though it will have stopped being a significant hazard long before this. It should be remembered that regulatory agencies are always over cautious about things and so their criteria do not define the limits of safety. Safety comes well before their criteria.

http://www.freedomforfission.org.uk/cyc/waste.html

I find it interesting that paying out of our ass for disposal of coal is "okay", but as soon as it's nuclear (even though it's 1/1000th the amount of waste)... OMG!
 
I find it interesting that paying out of our ass for disposal of coal is "okay", but as soon as it's nuclear (even though it's 1/1000th the amount of waste)... OMG!

Getting rid of coal is a high priority.
 
Well, that's good then.

Look, I'm not saying nuclear is perfect, or the end-all, be-all. However, if we use nuclear to it's full capabilities, it can last us a long time and be a primary or near-primary source of energy for most of our needs. Geothermal, Solar, and Wind energy would have to take a LOT of investment to EVER be able to not only completely replace nuclear, but also manage to surpass it. I think that we need both forms of technology.
 

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