Nuclear Energy - I need to vent/rant

Comparing that design with anything done today is not reasonable.

The design isn't relivant the process to get there is.


Easily determined during low power physics testing...predicted flux profile must be within 3% of predicted or no startup. Calibrated some of those myself.

So the refuel on load designs have been abandoned?

construction might have been 7 years. Must do about 2 years of engineering before you start pouring concrete. On my last plant, the contracts were signed in 1987, first concrete wasn't until 89-90 and finished the first unit in 95 and the next in 96.

I said there were delys (a mixture of it being a new type for the UK and no one working on the plant haveing any interest in seeing the thing finished on time). Still for a more extream example. Calder Hall first started feeding power into the national grid 3 years after the start of construction. All construction was complete after 5 years. That was Britian's first nuclear power plant so past experence availible would have been limited.

http://www.britishnucleargroup.com/content.php?pageID=262&tab=1

The new advanced designs would require less construction time, but there is a lot of FOAKE to do. And bugs will be there.

You've just been explaining that we know how to deal with bugs now.

I absolutely disagree with this. Experience is paramount in building and running nukes. Welding is still welding and concrete pours are concrete pours. The design will be new, but a pump is still a pump. The instrument cabinets are really the only big changes. I have gone through a lot of those. With modern electronics, it was easy to start them up...much more user friendly.

The instrument cabinets are also the only thing you listed that isn't found in other industries. Welding and concrete pours can be found in almost any heavy industry. Pumps and the like feature quite widely in the chemical and oil industries amoung others.


CANDU: bomb material quite easily
light water reactor: Garbage...the isotopes of Pu are either burned or capture a few too many neutrons and convert to 240 and 241, etc.--which is useless

I'm yet to run across a light water fast breeder reactor.
 
You seem to imply that a low steady radiation level is more damaging than short exposures to higher levels?

Depending on the levels involved this is correct. See the Goiânia accident.
 
The design isn't relivant the process to get there is.

The process is significantly different now than in the 50s...the comparison is unreasonable. Computer simulations alone have made core design and so many different types of analysis very sophiticated.

So the refuel on load designs have been abandoned?

I don't understand what your are asking.



I said there were delys (a mixture of it being a new type for the UK and no one working on the plant haveing any interest in seeing the thing finished on time). Still for a more extream example. Calder Hall first started feeding power into the national grid 3 years after the start of construction. All construction was complete after 5 years. That was Britian's first nuclear power plant so past experence availible would have been limited.

http://www.britishnucleargroup.com/content.php?pageID=262&tab=1

As I have indicated, it would take 10 years to get electricity to the grid if a plant was started today... plus or minus something. Experience will help, but if a large number of plants start construction...there won't be enough trained people.


You've just been explaining that we know how to deal with bugs now.



The instrument cabinets are also the only thing you listed that isn't found in other industries. Welding and concrete pours can be found in almost any heavy industry. Pumps and the like feature quite widely in the chemical and oil industries amoung others.

All plants require instrumentation...distributed control systems are the norm now using I/O with programmable logic to control components. Simple minded stuff in reality, but works well.


I'm yet to run across a light water fast breeder reactor.

Again, I don't understand what you are talking about. You mentioned bomb building countries...anyone building a light water reactor would not be able to use it to make Pu--which is what I indicated (at least not very easily). I never implied any light water breeder. Candu plants can be used to make Pu quite well due to their operational nature. Typically fast reactors have a better breeding ratio due to the physics involved--less resonance capture of neutrons

Officially, I think we can agree to disagree on Nuclear power. You don't seem to think it is safe and I don't agree with that. A handful of accidents is just not a reason to abandon a clean power source in my opine.

glenn
 
Discussing the effect of continual exposure to low-level radiation is pointless in the context of a nuclear power discussion. The radiation exposure to the public is orders of magnitude lower than the continual radiation exposure that an average person gets from other sources.

For example, a person living in Denver gets a dosage that is about 70 mrem more per year than a person who lives in the east next door to a nuclear power plant (all other things being equal). Elevation and local geology are far more influential than the existence of nuclear power plants when determining annual dosage. And those exposures are also continuous.

If we were going to dismiss nuclear power because of the level of continuous radiation that the public is exposed to, then we should evacuate Denver (and the entire Colorado Plateau), ban luminous wristwatches, ban smoke detectors, ban porcelain dentalwork, and ban stone/brick/masonry buildings. All of those cause about the same level or more radiation exposure in our everyday lives as nuclear power does. Things like computers and TVs can also be considered continuous for some, and they supply more radiation also. Bickering over the effects of 0.01 mrem annually from nuclear power plants makes little sense when a person working/living in a stone/brick/masonry building gets 7 mrem from that.

Again, the nuclear fuel cycle contributes (conservatively) about 0.01 mrem to the annual ionizing radiation exposure for an average American living near a nuclear plant. The food we eat and the water we drink contribute over 40 mrem due to naturally occurring isotopes. The air we breathe contributes over 200 mrem per year from naturally occurring radon. These two sources combined supply us with over 24,000 times the continuous ionizing radiation exposure that nuclear power does.

Go look for yourself at what continuous sources are much more significant than nuclear power at the worksheet here.
 
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The process is significantly different now than in the 50s...the comparison is unreasonable. Computer simulations alone have made core design and so many different types of analysis very sophiticated.

And yet the japanese managed to killed of a couple of their workers a few years back.


As I have indicated, it would take 10 years to get electricity to the grid if a plant was started today... plus or minus something. Experience will help, but if a large number of plants start construction...there won't be enough trained people.

I think that the people who design and build large chemical plants would be able to switch over if required.


All plants require instrumentation...distributed control systems are the norm now using I/O with programmable logic to control components. Simple minded stuff in reality, but works well.

You can't use the system systems you would use in a chemical plant.


Again, I don't understand what you are talking about. You mentioned bomb building countries...anyone building a light water reactor would not be able to use it to make Pu--which is what I indicated (at least not very easily). I never implied any light water breeder. Candu plants can be used to make Pu quite well due to their operational nature. Typically fast reactors have a better breeding ratio due to the physics involved--less resonance capture of neutrons

Large scale nuclear programs will require fast breeders. Most countries are likely to want to build there own. Personaly I'd rather Robert Mugabe didn't get his hands on a fast breeder (or even a magnox style design).

Officially, I think we can agree to disagree on Nuclear power. You don't seem to think it is safe and I don't agree with that. A handful of accidents is just not a reason to abandon a clean power source in my opine.

Nothing is safe the question is given the risks of nuclear power how should it be used.

Almost every country outside of europe that has built nuclear power plants has had a nuclear bomb program at some point. If nuclear power plants are going to supply the world's power then something needs to be done to break this pattern first.

If we limit nuclear power to nations that we trust only that presents another set of problems.

If we get round that then we need to solve the problem of large scale fast breeders that work without issues and reprocessing that doesn't keep running into problems.
 
And yet the japanese managed to killed of a couple of their workers a few years back.

I remember that accident. It wasn't at a nuclear reactor. It was at a fuel processing facility, and it was the result of stupidity on the part of the workers. It was the kind of mistake that gets people blown up when working with hydrocarbons, too.

Nothing is safe the question is given the risks of nuclear power how should it be used.

Sure. The politics are tough, especially in regards to developing countries. However, if developed countries which already have nuclear power plants increase their use of nuclear power, I can't see how that's a bad thing on balance. It might actually decrease demand for nuclear power from poor countries because of reduced demand for fossil fuels used for conventional power plants.
 
I remember that accident. It wasn't at a nuclear reactor. It was at a fuel processing facility, and it was the result of stupidity on the part of the workers. It was the kind of mistake that gets people blown up when working with hydrocarbons, too.

There was also that leak at sellafield. The problem wasn't so much that it happened but no one noticed.

Larger scale nuclear industry requires more reprocessing and more fast breeders. At the moment we have problems with both of these.

Sure. The politics are tough, especially in regards to developing countries. However, if developed countries which already have nuclear power plants increase their use of nuclear power, I can't see how that's a bad thing on balance. It might actually decrease demand for nuclear power from poor countries because of reduced demand for fossil fuels used for conventional power plants.

that is only a short term solution.
 
Do we need nuclear?

Hi, I'm new to this forum. While I'm impressed by all the informed discussion about nuclear power, I want to just take a moment and suggest that we're all talking about this based on the wrong premises.

I'm going to take a moment to explain my background. I became politically engaged not quite 2 years ago when I felt like global warming was threatening us all and nobody was doing anything about it. I now consider myself an environmentalist, and for the purposes of this discussion, a luddite. I live in Ontario, Canada. We get almost 50% of our electrical supply from nuclear and more than 20% from coal.

Like most Ontarians, I find nuclear power both familiar and frightening. The fact that waste is stored on site is not reassuring to me. It is a constant reminder that we still haven't figured out what to do with it 20-30 years down. All our reactors were supposed to last for 40 years and they've died after 25. All were over budget. All had serious construction delays. They are strikingly unreliable. They have required expensive refurbishments to keep them hobbling along. None are insured. None have ever had a full environmental assessment. We all have a special item on our energy bill related to the "stranded debt" from nuclear costs. Recently we discovered that our Pickering reactors are located directly over the point where 2 fault lines cross, in the most geologically active area of the country. During the big blackout a few years back, only 2 reactors did what they were supposed to. The rest required intervention to prevent a meltdown. We have never allocated any money for decommissioning or waste disposal, nor is there any money set aside in case of a nuclear accident. Our first nations people who live in communities where the uranium is mined suffer from horrifying rates of cancers, while our governments bend over backwards trying to claim that the cancers are unrelated. There are projected costs of monitoring the waste for centuries. I would say that the overall costs of nuclear have been unacceptably high.

Still, I became engaged in energy issues through my concern about global warming, and wanted to be open minded about all potential solutions. Getting rid of the coal was the priority.

Unfortunately a large part of the coal is used to balance out the nuclear. Nuclear is not dispatchable. The more of it you have, the more you need something to address the peaks in demand. This has been traditionally delivered by fossil fuels. If you level off peaks with storage mechanisms (flywheels, pumped hydro, compressed gas, flow batteries, whatever) you get into additional costs. These same storage mechanisms can be applied to renewable generation (particularly wind) instead to get reliable power without the same risks.

But the real issue I wanted to introduce is the question of why it is we want all this energy anyway. Ontario was blessed with cheap, abundant and safe electricity from Niagara Falls. Our electricity utility is still called "Hydro One" and many Ontarians still imagine that most of our power comes from water. Cheap and abundant energy built up a manufacturing base in the province that quickly absorbed all the power and was hungry for more. Nuclear reactors were developed on the hope of producing power "too cheap to meter".

Instead today Ontarians are still paying for reactors that have died while we use 60% more energy than the average New Yorker. Canadians as a whole use double the electricity of the average Englishman and triple that of the average Italian. This is not because of our harsh weather or long distances. Few Canadian homes are electrically heated, our cars are not electric. The enormous demand comes from inefficient industry, and increasingly from air conditioning. Italy has a hotter climate and a similar industrial base. We have no excuse.

I was born in Brazil and still have family there. They are upper-middle class people who live in houses such as I only wish I could afford. None are air conditioned yet they are comfortable inside. Canadian houses are stupidly designed to sop up all that "cheap" energy.

My point is that the construction of large generation projects automatically creates the need to sell electricity to pay for the construction. You develop a lot of dependent users. Nuclear power plants are especially guilty because they take 10+ years to build, and cannot come online gradually. They are either on 24/7 for months, or off. During the construction time you get no energy, then suddenly you have this surge that you need to sell urgently. So developing the demand for the upcoming nuclear surge often means resorting to running coal plants full out in the interim.

If we really want to tackle global warming, I would assert that what is fundamentally needed is a rethinking of our energy pathways, and a serious reassessment of how much energy we need. We need to stop thinking about filling a demand of x megawatts. California's program of increasing standards in refrigerators has "generated" as much energy as the entire US nuclear fleet. And they are by no means scraping the barrel.

We have buildings here that are refrigerated in the summer to the point that some workers actually have heaters on as well for comfort. We have many restaurants that find it appropriate to air condition the sidewalk patio.

While I've always been concerned about the risks of nuclear power, I would be willing to consider it if vital services depended on it. But it's very difficult for me to justify telling first nations people that we need to keep mining uranium on their lands so that we can enjoy a coffee on an air conditioned patio. If we continued to use nuclear at current rates (not even an expansion), at the most optimistic assessment, the current technology could provide power for 3 generations. The waste we would leave behind for 250.

There is rather a lot that I would be willing to do to avoid that. I haven't air conditioned for 2 years. I hang dry my laundry. I'd be willing to set a timer on my washer so that I could use electricity at night when the winds are best. I would frankly be willing to wash clothes by hand. Does anybody really need an electric can opener? Nose hair clipper? Standby mode for television?

There's been a lot of talk about the expense of solar. The advantage of solar PV is that it matches peak demand almost perfectly. It produces power when we're otherwise forced to resort to firing up our coal plants. If you put a value on GHG emissions and health/environmental costs, it starts looking pretty good. And in my opinion, if you can afford air conditioning, you should be able to afford powering it up in a way that doesn't load up a lot of nuclear waste problems and transmission costs on the rest of us.

In Ontario, we have a plan to rebuild our entire nuclear fleet. It is not my experience that "environmentalists" make the process more onerous. Quite the opposite. All kinds of regulations are routinely squashed to make way for nuclear and ignore its hazards. We live in a curious place where we need a full environmental assessment for a speed bump, but no environmental assessment is required for a nuclear plant and a court has recently ordered a first nations community to cease protesting and allow mining operations on their lands.

The best, most compelling argument for nuclear is that it replaces coal plants. The reality is not that simple. For one thing, nuclear is no more dispatchable than wind and far less correlated with peak than solar. For another, a coal plant goes up in a year or two, whereas you need to count on 15 realistically for nuclear. In the meantime, you're probably using increasing amounts of coal. If instead you put the money into conservation initiatives, after 15 years you would have less demand than you started with and money in the bank, plus you've emitted a lot less. You could even charge more for energy to cover your investment. People would pay more per kilowatt hour, but their energy bill would still be lower on average, because they would use less.

If you absolutely need to invest in generation, wind goes up in less than a year and is far more scalable. There are a lot of smart ways of balancing it, from dispersion to energy storage to cost incentives that drive the price down when a lot is generated.

If you want to address global warming, the smart money is on conservation first, renewables next. I don't imagine there's any role for nuclear, but if there is, it's very limited.
 
If you want to address global warming, the smart money is on conservation first, renewables next. I don't imagine there's any role for nuclear, but if there is, it's very limited.

You imagine wrong. I cannot speak to Canada's experience in particular, and perhaps your nuclear industry has been a disaster. But Canada != the world. In the US, projected power demands (which include improvements in efficiency) cannot be met by renewables alone. There will either be an increase in the use of fossil fuels (coal in particular), or an increase in the use of nuclear power. And coal is NOT more environmentally friendly (from any standpoint) than nuclear.
 
I'm going out on a limb here and I'm going to say that there will be no significant opposition to new nuclear plants in the USA - other areas of the work might follow suit. Watch the the progress on the South Texas Nuclear project's 2 new plants in Houston to see if there is opposition - at all. This is the first of some planned 16-20 new plants that are scheduled to be built.

Politcally the anti-nuclear groups have been marginalized (Greenpeace is still there), UCS is cautiously pro-nuclear, all kinds of ratiional environmentists who are anti-AGW are pro nuclear. The interesting question is whether that 16-20 new plants can be followed with another significantly larger wave.
 
What aspect of environmental impact are you interested in?
Well twister is probably thinking "if all the coal plants exploded simultaneously, the environmental impact might not be as bad as if all the nuke plants melted down simultaneously."
 
Either that, or he thinks that we truck out tons of nuclear waste all the time, and that we don't have any possible way to circumvent that with stuff, like, say, breeder reactors.
 
Either that, or he thinks that we truck out tons of nuclear waste all the time, and that we don't have any possible way to circumvent that with stuff, like, say, breeder reactors.

We do need education.

There is still a vestige of fear about the nuclear industry left over from the past, when the big green anti-nuclear lobby was a lot stronger than it is now.

So there are well meaning, but misinformed people about.
 
Sure, but if you provide education, people will just say that it's made up by the gubmint or the nuclear companies to satisfy their own corporate interests or somesuch.

Or maybe just certain posters on this forum are that way...
 
Let's face it,the mere word "nuclear" scares the hell out of a lot of people,and I think this gut reaction is responsible for a lot of the anti nuclear power opinion rather then any real considered reaction.
ANd luddite has a very apporpriate name. He seems to be of the school that thinks that using power to make life more comfortable is somehow evil in and of itself. A sort of "Enviorimental Puritan".
But let's face facts.People who live in warm climates where it gets very hot in the summer are not going to give up Air Conditioning,unless big brother tells them too.
You might make the argument that Nuclear Plants might be too risky in certain areas and I would agree...in California anywhere near the San Andread fault for instance. But the abandoment of Nuclear power in the Eighties was a foolish act,IMHO.
 

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