Nuclear Energy - I need to vent/rant

I'm curious about this, and I don't want to make it seem like this claim has gone uncontested.

Please explain how the terrorists will use the spent fuel, and why it would be any worse than if they used their target against plants that store deadly chemicals all over the place?

I have heard before that the spent fuel pool is sometimes called a "weak point" in the whole armor of the plant, but just the same I'm not exactly kind of attack would be mounted on one. I know where I am the plant has the fresh spent fuel just off the reactor in a large pool with passive convection-based cooling and shielding.

I believe that when it first comes out it's kept right next to the core though, until it "cools" just a tad bit, so there would be no i-131 concern or anything after that.

They were talking about dry cask storage to make some more room. That would involve concrete casks with a welded stainless steel container that the bundles go in and then it's packed with filler. I don't know if that's just the plan or if they had the casks actually filled yet.

The spent fuel pool probably isn't in quite as strong a structure as the actual containment dome.

I'm just not sure what the "terrorist" would do? Crash a plane into it? Blow it up? How do you get a truck full of explosives onto a nuclear plant... I mean they have big gates and M-16 armed guards (and before ludite says "If it's so safe why do they have armed guards, they have them at fossil fuel plants too and the hangers at the airport)

So... assuming they blow the stuff up, then what? Great, that would leave a whole bunch of radioactive pebble-size bits and pieces of spent fuel strewn around the pool. And then the DOE would have to come with a vacuum truck and guys with brooms and geieger counters and clean the damn thing up.


Okay... I know... it would certainly be a PR DISASTER. Yes, that's a given. The antinukes would claim it poinsoned everyone in the damn state and then when some guy down the street gets lung cancer (after years of chain smoking) they'll hold him up as an example of someone dying because of the damn spent fuel.



But then you'll have to give it to them: They latch onto anything. The local anti-nuclear group posted on their website not long ago about how a 49 year old worker at the plant had died and they had his picture and obituary and everything up. It was an unexpected death of a relatively young man.

Yes... only it turns out the guy died after unsuccessful surgery to try to fix a congenital heart valve defect that had gotten worse with age. oh well..
 
It was a tube rupture? That explains why I couldn't find any info on it online other than the typical alarmist "Chernobyl in Quebec" articles.

Chernobyl in Québec ? Gosh I hate extremists.

Lonewulf said:
Please explain how the terrorists will use the spent fuel, and why it would be any worse than if they used their target against plants that store deadly chemicals all over the place?

Yeah. Didn't think about that.
 
Chernobyl in Québec ? Gosh I hate extremists.

Yeah. The article is here, and they are basically saying that Pickering's tube rupture proves that a tube rupture can happen at Gentilly-2. They also point out that Chernobyl had pressure tubes. So the next (il)logical step for them is to assume that a Chernobyl-style accident is possible at Gentilly-2.

Anti-nuclear groups simply love to invoke the name Chernobyl. Using a tactic straight out of Fear Mongering 101, they say it over and over and over again. Sometimes I swear that Greenpeace has a policy that states that any article about nuclear power must use the name Chernobyl at least two dozen times. When Davis-Besse had its hole-in-the-head problem, antis did the same thing, saying that we narrowly avoided a Chernobyl on Lake Erie.

I should also point out that my last response was in error. When I hear "tube rupture" I immediately think of steam generator tube ruptures. I forgot that the CANDUs use tubes in the reactor core. So my comparison to tube ruptures in the US was incorrect.
 
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It was a tube rupture? That explains why I couldn't find any info on it online other than the typical alarmist "Chernobyl in Quebec" articles. Here I thought we were talking about a serious problem. Tube ruptures, while a concern, are nowhere near as bad a LOCA elsewhere since they always carry low loss rates (these are small tubes) and because a tube can be sealed off easily. Heck, when we do thermal analyses for plants, we generally assume that 20% of the tubes in the steam generator have been plugged for one reason or another.

deleted.

FYI: On the new steam generator thing however, next generation plants should do well as they will use inconel 690 and the tube support system is way better...one of the things we found out from experience in older plants. The supports are placed where there is the least amount of vibration on the tubes...part of enhanced computer programs. I just thought that was so cool.

glenn
 
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The cause of the Chernobyl accident has never been fully explained. It was originally claimed by the USSR National Nuclear Safety Committee that it was the result of infringements of the SRNPS regulations for the operation of an RBMK and the IAEA agreed with this assessment. However, by 1992 both of these organizations had changed their story to "a design deficiency related to the length of the displacer rods".

At one time no less than 13 scenarios leading to the explosion of Chernobyl Unit 4 were under consideration.

This is typical of the nuclear industry here in Canada. When something unexpected happens, invent a plausible cover story.... who cares if its true! The Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission are in bed with AECL and OPG so our wonderful regulators do whatever the nuclear "barons" want. I know ..... I have watched them perform their little charade of Public Hearings for 20 years!
 
Apollo20 said:
This is typical of the nuclear industry here in Canada. When something unexpected happens, invent a plausible cover story.... who cares if its true!

It's fascinating how much of a twoofer mindset you show, doctor.
 
The cause of the Chernobyl accident has never been fully explained. It was originally claimed by the USSR National Nuclear Safety Committee that it was the result of infringements of the SRNPS regulations for the operation of an RBMK and the IAEA agreed with this assessment. However, by 1992 both of these organizations had changed their story to "a design deficiency related to the length of the displacer rods".

At one time no less than 13 scenarios leading to the explosion of Chernobyl Unit 4 were under consideration.

This is typical of the nuclear industry here in Canada. When something unexpected happens, invent a plausible cover story.... who cares if its true! The Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission are in bed with AECL and OPG so our wonderful regulators do whatever the nuclear "barons" want. I know ..... I have watched them perform their little charade of Public Hearings for 20 years!

One question.

How is the reaction of the Russian nuclear industry to a major accident at one type of nuclear reactor indicative of what's "typical" of the Canadian nuclear industry at a minor accident at a different type of plant?

Or are you just making an assertion without evidence and hoping it slips right by?
 
Apollo20 said:
I worked as a research scientist in the Canadian nuclear industry for 23 years. Having studied CANDU reactors in great detail, I can say I would not want to live within 10 miles of one. Pickering Unit 3 (P3) had a serious LOCA in August 1983 from a pressure tube rupture that was not supposed to be possible (according to all the scientists at Chalk River).
Apollo20 said:
This is typical of the nuclear industry here in Canada. When something unexpected happens, invent a plausible cover story.... who cares if its true!
Apollo20 said:
nuclear "barons"

Belz... said:
It's fascinating how much of a twoofer mindset you show, doctor.

Suddenly, the first thing I quoted above is put into question.

Apollo, care to put forth the effort to back up your claim as to your supposed "expertise"? So far, you're using far too many weasel words for me to not be dubious.
 
CANDU: A Canadian horror story.

Here is a letter I sent to the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission (CNSC) in December 2006:

In 2003 and 2005 I was an intervenor in the public hearings on the licensing of the four CANDU reactors at Pickering ‘A’ NGS. I felt compelled to participate in those hearings because of my first-hand knowledge of OPG’s nuclear operations and my concerns over the condition of the feeder pipes in Pickering ‘A’ Units.

These concerns were not alleviated by OPG’s announced intention of carrying out extensive feeder pipe inspections and only replacing degraded components where absolutely necessary. Indeed this merely guaranteed a major radiation dose commitment to the OPG employees and contract workers destined to carry out inspection work in the appalling conditions encountered close to the face of a large CANDU reactor. As it transpired the total dose to the individuals involved in the Pickering Unit 4 feeder pipe inspection was 271 mSv, a significant exposure when it is considered that the normal operation of a single CANDU Unit entails a radiation dose of about 700 mSv per year. Fortunately OPG eventually abandoned its plan to refurbish Pickering Units 2 and 3, even after the CNSC had granted OPG permission to proceed with such an ill-conceived plan.

Now, two years on from these events, I see that OPG wants to forge ahead with more refurbishments that will involve even more feeder pipe inspections and radiation exposures. However, the radiological consequences of OPG’s latest exercise in rebuilding near-defunct reactors, namely Units 5 - 8 at Pickering ‘B’, has the potential to endanger not only the station personnel involved in the task, but also the hapless residents of Pickering township and the local environments on the designated route from Pickering to the Bruce Waste Disposal Site. Why? Because the scope-of-work document issued by OPG lists replacement of steam generators and transportation of the associated waste as new and untested requirements for the refurbishment of Pickering ‘B’.

This immediately raises heightened concern about the Pickering ‘B’ refurbishment because of the simple fact that, after a CANDU reactor’s pressure vessel and in-core components such as the pressure and calandria tubes, the steam generators constitute the area within a nuclear power station that most effectively concentrates radioactivity. Furthermore, steam generator tubing is the thinnest barrier in a CANDU reactor heat transport circuit and therefore constitutes an area that is highly susceptible to the release of primary coolant and its associated radioactive contamination to the supposedly non-radioactive secondary side of the steam generator.

Two decades of operation of the four Pickering ‘B’ Units has resulted in the production and deposition of large quantities of activated corrosion/erosion products, fission product, uranium and transuranic isotopes from the neutron irradiation of pressure boundary materials and natural uranium. The transfer of radioactivity from the reactor core to the steam generators, mainly via the associated “sludge/crud” of corrosion metal oxides such as magnetite, has lead to many operational problems for OPG such as radiation field build up and loss of thermal efficiency through the fouling of steam generator tubes. Indeed, because of these problems, OPG has attempted from time to time, to chemically clean affected steam generators in Pickering ‘A’ and ‘B’ Units. As a result of these cleaning activities, a number of radioactive effluent solutions and particulate filters from Pickering “boiler-cleans” were subjected to chemical and radiochemical analyses by Kinetrics (Formerly OPT) in Toronto and AECL’s Whiteshell Laboratories in Pinawa, Manitoba.

These analyses showed that long-lived activation products from the irradiation of chromium, iron, cobalt, nickel, zinc and niobium, such as Fe-55, Fe-59, Co-60, Zn-65 and Nb-94 as well as fission products such as Ru-103, Ru-106, Sb-125, Cs-134, Cs-137, Ce-144, Eu-154 and the uranium and transuranic isotopes U-235, U-238, Pu-238, Pu-239, Am-241, Cm –242 and Cm-244 were present in substantial amounts in the analyzed samples. However, it should be noted that data on the long-lived species Cl-36, Ni-63, Sr-90 and I-129 are few and far between because of the difficulties, (and cost!), of measuring these pure beta-emitting radioisotopes.

Nevertheless, one of the most significant findings of the analytical studies of Pickering steam generator cleaning wastes is the fact that while these persistent and highly radio-toxic species are known to be present in all steam generator samples, it has proved to be next to impossible to convert the available data into meaningful steam generator inventories because of the great uncertainties involved in making such extrapolations. This is due to a number of factors:

(i)The variable distribution of deposited activity on steam generator surfaces, especially in inaccessible areas such as the “U-tubes”.
(ii)The highly uncertain efficiency of a chemical cleaning agent in removing a particular radioisotope from a steam generator deposit.
(iii)The nature of the samples, (i.e. un-quantified wash solutions and/or filters) from which the analytical data was derived.

If we focus only on the radiologically significant plutonium inventory in a Pickering steam generator we find that “guestimates” have in fact been made, but the uncertainties are acknowledged to be such that inventories as high as 10 times the quoted values are equally probable. And this raises a number of very serious concerns about the planned removal of steam generators from Pickering ‘B’ as I shall now explain.

The regulation of the Canadian nuclear industry is based on a probabilistic safety analysis approach in which the risk and radiological consequences of a potential nuclear accident are assessed. Typically the accident in question is assumed to involve the environmental release of a radionuclide and an associated radiation dose, via air or water-borne transport, to the population within a specified radius of the accident. In the present case, the accident scenario might involve damage, with breach of containment, to a steam generator through hard impact during its removal or transportation from Pickering ‘B’. Furthermore, the accident might be envisaged to result in the release of 1 % or more of the steam generator inventory of Pu-239 or, to follow standard CNSC practice in this regard, the release of a specific amount of this radionuclide, say 1 x 10^7 Bq of Pu-239.

Now herein resides the source of my concerns and the main reason for my intervention in the OPG proposals for the refurbishment of Units at Pickering ‘B’: as previously noted, all the Pickering steam generator’s Pu-239 inventories are highly uncertain. What is more, the radiation dose-to-Becquerel conversions used by OPG are also highly uncertain because of construction complexities and uneven crud composition/deposition patterns in the steam generator channel-head bowl, divider plate, tube sheet and tubes. Thus:

A meaningful probabilistic safety analysis of the proposed steam generator
removal operations at Pickering ‘B’ cannot presently be made.

I would also like to point out that OPG has a very poor track record in accurately predicting the condition of critical systems such as pressure tubes, feeder pipes and steam generators, in its nuclear reactors. An example of this may be seen in the information provided by OPG to British Energy in February 2003 regarding the fitness for service of the steam generators in Bruce Unit 8. It appears that OPG assured British Energy that the steam generators in question would be “in good condition, repair and proper working order, having regard for their use and age.” Unfortunately for all concerned, this turned out not to be the case. Indeed, when the Bruce Unit 8 steam generators were inspected during the first planned outage after the signing of the 2003 Purchase Agreement, their condition was such that British Energy immediately served a Statement of Claim on OPG seeking damages in the amount of $500,000,000 for the anticipated reduced operating life of Unit 8 steam generators.

This incident should make it perfectly clear to the CNSC that OPG cannot be trusted to provide a reliable assessment of the radiological conditions prevailing within the Pickering ‘B’ steam generators. And I hope the CNSC recalls how OPG previously misled the AECB with pronouncements that there was no carbon-14 on the pressure tubes at Pickering ‘A’, when, as it turned out, there was thousands of curies!
And we also need to consider OPG’s well-known reticence to share information with the public on the amount of “tramp” plutonium in its reactor systems as the following example shows: In my role as a research chemist for OPG, I used to analyze samples of irradiated fuel bay water from Pickering NGS. I typically found, in addition to the expected activated corrosion products, significant amounts of Pu-239. In the course of this research I became involved in an information exchange with U.S. nuclear industry researchers on issues connected with the long-term storage of nuclear fuel and I sought permission from my OPG manager to share my data with my American colleagues. My manager said I could provide the results of my Pickering fuel storage bay water analysis as long as the Pu-239 data were removed. When I asked the reasons for the exclusion of the plutonium data I was told: “We don’t want the whole world to know that we have plutonium in our fuel storage bays.”

With these facts in mind I am asking, indeed begging, the CNSC to acknowledge the reality that OPG is too secretive and too self-serving to be allowed to proceed with steam generator replacement activities without an independent audit and proper accounting of the radiological hazards involved. And OPG has already proven that it is more concerned with concealing its intentions with regard to the Pickering ‘B’ refurbishment than revealing the details of its work plans for this project. In fact OPG has gone so far as to deny the CNSC access to its Project Execution Plan (PEP) as reported in the CNSC Minutes of the Pickering ‘B’ Integrated Safety Review Meeting held on October 26 2006. This meeting also shows CNSC staff complaining about the impact of not having a PEP for Pickering ‘B’ on the CNSC’s business plan for 2007, rather than voicing any concerns over the potential radiological impact of OPG’s Pickering ‘B’ refurbishment operations!

Therefore, because it is well-known how the CNSC goes out of its way to cater to the wishes of OPG, I believe it would serve the best interests of the people of Ontario for the CNSC Commissioners to show real due diligence and insist that an independent consultant/auditor be contracted to provide a report that includes:

(i)A quantification of the Pu-239 and Sr-90 inventory in every Pickering ‘B’ steam generator slated for removal in the upcoming refurbishment.
(ii)A detailed description of how such data were derived.
(iii)An estimate of the predicted OPG employee and/or contract worker radiation exposure from involvement in the removal of the Pickering “B’ steam generators.

I am further requesting that the consultant/auditors report be produced before the CNSC grants perfunctory approval of the Pickering ‘B’ refurbishment operations so that the people of Ontario may understand the potential consequences of the high-risk activities OPG plan to undertake, supposedly for our benefit, before the inevitable problems arise.

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Needless to say I received no feedback on this from the CNSC....
 
Thank you Apollo. I very much appreciate your insights.

From here, it sure looks like Apollo has a far more detailed knowledge of reactor functions than any of the people demanding his credentials. Nor is Apollo especially unusual, at least in a Canadian context. I know at least 2 nuclear engineers who abandoned their interest in nuclear power. One is now an engineering professor at the University of Toronto specializing in solar power. He says that he has learned that fusion power is best kept at a distance. The other was an immigrant from India who hoped to find better conditions at Canadian reactors and found himself disappointed.

From the little details I'm getting, I know that neither of these is Apollo.
 
Luddite:

Thanks!

Yes, I can only speak with "insider" knowledge about the Canadian nuclear industry, but I know, from visits to nuclear facilities in the UK, that the Brits have had their share of problems, (horror stories really!), with nuclear energy too. That's why they have abandoned their "Advanced" gas reactors after years of problems. I guess they weren't so advanced after all....

You know the problem of long-term storage of nuclear waste is perhaps the real show-stopper. The Canadian master plan was to bury it "up north" in the Canadian Shield. Hence the AECL research facility at Whiteshell in Manitoba were working on this for years. Then the people of Manitoba wisely said "NIMBY" and AECL promply shut down Whiteshell and went back to the drawing board.

I challenge any pro-nuker to tell me they would be happy to have a nuclear waste depository in their backyard!
 
Thank you Apollo. I very much appreciate your insights.

Translation: "Whew! Finally someone who's opinion coincides with mine. Now I can safely ignore everything that's been said so far in this thread and maintain my fear-based faith."

From here, it sure looks like Apollo has a far more detailed knowledge of reactor functions than any of the people demanding his credentials.

He sure has more than me. Some of us have already had run-ins with doctor Greening, here.

Nor is Apollo especially unusual, at least in a Canadian context. I know at least 2 nuclear engineers who abandoned their interest in nuclear power.

TWO ? Holy hell! I wasn't aware there were that many!
 
Apollo20 said:
I challenge any pro-nuker to tell me they would be happy to have a nuclear waste depository in their backyard!

Sure. Just give me a geiger counter.

ETA: I'd rather a nuke plant than a chemical one.
 
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I challenge any pro-nuker to tell me they would be happy to have a nuclear waste depository in their backyard!

You might be surprised. Several of the people on this forum have no problem with spent fuel storage tanks nearby and claim that civilian nuclear waste is not hazardous after a few decades. The specific claim was that it was no more radioactive than natural uranium after 100 years and hardly more so after 30.

Actually, on this note, I should point out that this has not been substantiated, and while I haven't asked for a lot of references, this is one where I'm going to demand it, because everything I read indicates otherwise.

I spoke to a friend of mine yesterday, an engineer, though not a nuclear engineer. He is a former proponent of nuclear energy, now in the Green Party and a passionate opponent. He said that while he wasn't sure how to assess the claim that 100 year old spent fuel was no more dangerous than natural uranium, he suggested that I calculate the lethal dose of natural uranium.

So I've done my best. This is not my area of expertise and I appreciate corrections. But here's what I've got.

I went to this site and tried to calculate the dose for natural uranium.

http://www.wise-uranium.org/rdcu.html

I plugged in just the numbers you gave me. 22 kg bundles and 4500 of them in a loaded reactor. That gave me about 100 tonnes of natural uranium, which gives a dose of gamma radiation of 1.079 mSv/h and 468.2 Sv/h of external radiation from soil (that seemed to be the closest option given to having a stack of this stuff next to you). Meanwhile the following site gives a lethal dose as 3-5 Sv:

http://www4.tsl.uu.se/~radiation_protection/RPCOURS.htm#dlimi

So my cursory understanding says that a stack of natural uranium as large as the spent fuel from one refueling would deliver about 100 times the lethal dose of radiation in an hour. Unless there's something I've totally screwed up.

Which might well be, because the dose calculator I used gave slightly higher doses the longer the delay. So I'd appreciate some help.
 
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You might be surprised. Several of the people on this forum have no problem with spent fuel storage tanks nearby and claim that civilian nuclear waste is not hazardous after a few decades. The specific claim was that it was no more radioactive than natural uranium after 100 years and hardly more so after 30.

Actually, it's been pointed out to you that some radioactive waste is dangerous for a long, long time, but that due to the quantity involved, can be handled.

Actually, on this note, I should point out that this has not been substantiated

The truth is that it has, but you ignored it.

So I've done my best.

No, you haven't. What you've done is say "Well, that's all very interesting, Schneibster, but I STILL think nuclear is wrong, for some reason." Apollo's presence in this thread just serves as an excuse to galvanise your position, as if you were in any danger of being convinced of anything to start with.

As I told Buzzo earlier on, your opinion is faith-based, and no amount of evidence will change it.
 
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Apollo:

Your posted letter is interesting, but I don't think one could say that laziness or complacency ISN'T something that affects ALL human endeavours, not just nuclear. So I think it's safe to say that chemical plants are just as badly administrated, if not more so, than nuclear ones.

Unless you can correct me, of course.
 
Luddite:

...snip...

I challenge any pro-nuker to tell me they would be happy to have a nuclear waste depository in their backyard!

Unfair analogy...

Choose which of the following you would rather have in your backyard:

Nuclear power plant
Chemical plant
Ethanol plant
Paper factory
oil refinery
coal fired plant
Garbage dump
Nuclear waste repository
Chemical waste dump

now, ask the question. For me, if I had to have something in my back yard, I would take the nuke plant or the nuclear waste repository.

glenn
 

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