Merged Now What?

[cullennz]

It's not the end of the world.
We were trading with Europe in the 1960's, we sold engines to Sud Aviation to power the Caravelle.
We jointly developed Concorde (the predecessor of Airbus) and the Sepecat Jaguar. The project which became the Panavia Tornado began in the 1960's.

We sold stuff into dissimilar economies across the whole world. We still sell more to the rest of the world than the EU.

Don't get me wrong, the EU is an important market for us, but membership is not the only way to sell into that market.

New Zealand has offered to lend us it's negotiators to help us get a deal with the EU, and New Zealand wishes to have a free trade agreement with us.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...uk-its-top-trade-negotiators-for-post-brexit/

Before we were members of the EEC/EU we used to have a tariff free trade deal with New Zealand and New Zealand butter was very popular in the UK (Anchor being the biggest brand), when we joined the EEC suddenly we had to levy tariffs on goods from NZ and other Commonwealth countries.

.....And you dumped us........like........ like....an ugly girlfriend!

SOB

 

[catsmate]

Expecting to get your own way all the time is unrealistic

Unfortunately not for those still suffering from the imperial delusion

The Leave campaign kept harping on about how the UK had lost sovereignty and how we had to do whatever the EU told us but failed to point out that the UK wielded considerable influence in the EU.

That would spoil their story, wouldn't it.

First question is how reliable a source is order-order.com and how accurate is its information (after all it shows the US as being keen for a free trade agreement even though the President said we'd be at the back of the queue) but let's give it the benefit of the doubt....

Order-order.com/Guido Fawkes is the mouthpiece of Paul Staines, a libertarian/anarcho-capitalist blogger, semi-professional muckraker and gossip-monger, and frequent drunk driver. He has a long and dubious history of smearing anything pertaining to "socialism" or the EU; back in the old days he was a minion of David Hart, one of Thatcher's cronies and walso worked for the Adam Smith Institute and Global Growth Org.

Not a reliable source.

 

[catsmate]

I seriously don't get how people can't understand that the UK won't get crap all because they left

They prefer their fantasy world to the inconvenient reality.

 

[catsmate]

It's not the end of the world.
We were trading with Europe in the 1960's, we sold engines to Sud Aviation to power the Caravelle. <snip>

You may want to check a calender, it's not the 1960s any more.

 

[Airfix]

Paul Staines has often been interviewed by the BBC. They consider him to be credible political commentator.

 

[Airfix]

You may want to check a calender, it's not the 1960s any more.

You're missing the point by a country mile.
The principles of business remain the same.
The goods we wish to sell may be different, but it still requires money to sell goods. It still requires logistics to transport goods.

And some of our biggest customers are countries who levy customs tariffs on our goods.

 

[Airfix]

They prefer their fantasy world to the inconvenient reality.

Do you mind refraining from insults insinuations and petty remarks, I haven't insinuated anything about you.

I am trying to offer constructive suggestions about how to make Brexit work.

Have you got any ideas how to make it work ?

We're leaving the EU, so we're going to have to find a way to keep the country open for business, aren't we ?

 

[The Don]

Paul Staines has often been interviewed by the BBC. They consider him to be credible political commentator.

No necessarily, he could just be good for an outlandish quote or two.

 

[The Don]

You're missing the point by a country mile.
The principles of business remain the same.
The goods we wish to sell may be different, but it still requires money to sell goods. It still requires logistics to transport goods.

And some of our biggest customers are countries who levy customs tariffs on our goods.

And we enjoy access to those markets on favourable terms thanks to our membership of the EU. Post Brexit all bets are off unless we capitulate and do whatever it takes to stay in the EEA

 

[Airfix]

And we enjoy access to those markets on favourable terms thanks to our membership of the EU. Post Brexit all bets are off unless we capitulate and do whatever it takes to stay in the EEA

As we're leaving we should capitulate and do what it takes to be in the EEA.

 

[catsmate]

Paul Staines has often been interviewed by the BBC. They consider him to be credible political commentator.

The BBC has interviewed Alex Jones and Davic Icke.

You're missing the point by a country mile.
The principles of business remain the same.
The goods we wish to sell may be different, but it still requires money to sell goods. It still requires logistics to transport goods.

And some of our biggest customers are countries who levy customs tariffs on our goods.

No I'm not missing the point. You are (willfully I assume) ignoring the fact that the world has changed hugely in the past fifty years.

Do you mind refraining from insults insinuations and petty remarks, I haven't insinuated anything about you.

Pointing out when you're out-of-touch with reality isn't an insult.

I am trying to offer constructive suggestions about how to make Brexit work.

Have you got any ideas how to make it work ?

We're leaving the EU, so we're going to have to find a way to keep the country open for business, aren't we ?

Personally, given that I'm not a UK citizen, I favour sitting back, watching the UK economy implode and picking over the carcass.

 

[catsmate]

No necessarily, he could just be good for an outlandish quote or two.

Exactly. He's predictably useful for certain soundbites but utterly worthless as an analyst.

And we enjoy access to those markets on favourable terms thanks to our membership of the EU. Post Brexit all bets are off unless we capitulate and do whatever it takes to stay in the EEA

An unpleasant reality that Brexit supporters are desperately trying to ignore.

 

[Airfix]

The BBC has interviewed Alex Jones and Davic Icke.

Not for the same reasons.

 

[Airfix]

Personally, given that I'm not a UK citizen, I favour sitting back, watching the UK economy implode and picking over the carcass.

And if the UK economy doesn't implode ?
Lets just say we do as Iain Mansfield has suggested in his thesis "Openness Not Isolation".

He's not the only one who thinks Britain can thrive outside the EU, there are economists including Patrick Minford, Roger Bootle, Ruth Lea, the former head of the CBI Digby Jones they think we can thrive outside it.

And we're already trading with the USA whether we get a tariff free deal or not.

So if you were a British citizen, how would you best equip Britain for life outside the EU ?
I would go with the EEA agreement.

Some people in my country want to go with the WTO's MFN system.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

You're missing the point by a country mile.
The principles of business remain the same.
The goods we wish to sell may be different, but it still requires money to sell goods. It still requires logistics to transport goods.

And some of our biggest customers are countries who levy customs tariffs on our goods.

The markets have changed dramatically. Technology and engineering has shifted east considerably, services can be provided cheaply from India and the Philippines while Europe is deeply interconnected via the EU.

The UKs competitive position just got markedly worse in most regards.

Of course there will still be trade but a German company will now probably buy French Polish or Czech widgets rather than British if they can. It's just easier.

Not to mention that overnight we will be back to punitive tariffs on things like malt whisky to Korea which were part of EU FTA agreements.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Some companies are ready.
Jaguar/Landrover and Range Rover have manufacturing plants in China and Indonesia that they are expanding.
Even traditional 'luxury' brands like Barbour and Loake shoes are manufacturing in the far east.

 

[Airfix]

Archie, your post seems to be another "Brexit bad" argument which doesn't answer how the UK can move forwards.

We've been hitting third world countries with punitive tariffs. We can stop doing that.

We'll be able to negotiate our own FTA with South Korea and they're not as likely to introduce tariffs on goods from us if we don't levy tariffs on their goods. We don't want a trade war with anyone.

 

[Airfix]

Some companies are ready.
Jaguar/Landrover and Range Rover have manufacturing plants in China and Indonesia that they are expanding.

Sadly you are correct.
But it's less likely that that the Land Rover / Range Rover part of that eastward expansion if this rule:

Save as otherwise provided in the Treaties, any aid granted by a Member State or through State resources in any form whatsoever which distorts or threatens to distort competition by favouring certain undertakings or the production of certain goods shall, in so far as it affects trade between Member States, be incompatible with the internal market.

TFEU 107 had not been in place.

The UK government took it to mean that they could neither bail out or renationalise the business. Ford got Land Rover whilst John Towers and his Phoenix Consortium were encouraged to buy Rover from BMW. They introduced facelifted versions of already facelifted old models and did little to innovate, MG Rover collapsed five years later, then following the downturn of 2007/8 Ford sold Land Rover to Tata group.

The full article reads:

Article 107

(ex Article 87 TEC)

1. Save as otherwise provided in the Treaties, any aid granted by a Member State or through State resources in any form whatsoever which distorts or threatens to distort competition by favouring certain undertakings or the production of certain goods shall, in so far as it affects trade between Member States, be incompatible with the internal market.

2. The following shall be compatible with the internal market:

(a) aid having a social character, granted to individual consumers, provided that such aid is granted without discrimination related to the origin of the products concerned;

(b) aid to make good the damage caused by natural disasters or exceptional occurrences;

(c) aid granted to the economy of certain areas of the Federal Republic of Germany affected by the division of Germany, in so far as such aid is required in order to compensate for the economic disadvantages caused by that division. Five years after the entry into force of the Treaty of Lisbon, the Council, acting on a proposal from the Commission, may adopt a decision repealing this point.

3. The following may be considered to be compatible with the internal market:

(a) aid to promote the economic development of areas where the standard of living is abnormally low or where there is serious underemployment, and of the regions referred to in Article 349, in view of their structural, economic and social situation;

(b) aid to promote the execution of an important project of common European interest or to remedy a serious disturbance in the economy of a Member State;

(c) aid to facilitate the development of certain economic activities or of certain economic areas, where such aid does not adversely affect trading conditions to an extent contrary to the common interest;

(d) aid to promote culture and heritage conservation where such aid does not affect trading conditions and competition in the Union to an extent that is contrary to the common interest;

(e) such other categories of aid as may be specified by decision of the Council on a proposal from the Commission.

Maybe they could have renationalised Rover in 2000, I don't know.

But as far as I see it EU legislation made matters more complicated.

 

[catsmate]

The markets have changed dramatically. Technology and engineering has shifted east considerably, services can be provided cheaply from India and the Philippines while Europe is deeply interconnected via the EU.

The UKs competitive position just got markedly worse in most regards.

Of course there will still be trade but a German company will now probably buy French Polish or Czech widgets rather than British if they can. It's just easier.

Not to mention that overnight we will be back to punitive tariffs on things like malt whisky to Korea which were part of EU FTA agreements.

Plus there's this thing called the European Union...

 

[catsmate]

And if the UK economy doesn't implode ?
Lets just say we do as Iain Mansfield has suggested in his thesis "Openness Not Isolation".

Have you looked at the proportion of economists who believe Brexit will be a Good Thing for the UK as opposed to those who don't?

And we're already trading with the USA whether we get a tariff free deal or not.

Yes. So what?

So if you were a British citizen, how would you best equip Britain for life outside the EU ?

I would go with the EEA agreement.
Excellent. So you're OK with the UK contributing to the EU budget (nearly as much as when it was an EU member), accept most EU laws and regulations (while not having much influence on them), accept free movement of labour (including brown people) then?

Some people in my country want to go with the WTO's MFN system.

That'd be amusing.