Merged Now What?

[MikeG]

......It was and is a powerful and persuasive message.

Indeed it is/ was. But levels of population increase are also a legitimate concern even for the non-racist/ xenophobes. Is anyone really suggesting that immigration shouldn't have been an issue for consideration during the campaign?

I hope everyone who comments on this subject has read Ashcroft's in depth survey post-referendum which I linked to above. The primary motivator for those who voted Leave wasn't immigration, it was the democratic deficit.

 

[Ape of Good Hope]

I hope everyone who comments on this subject has read Ashcroft's in depth survey post-referendum which I linked to above. The primary motivator for those who voted Leave wasn't immigration, it was the democratic deficit.

The devil might possibly be in the detail.

By large majorities, voters who saw multiculturalism, feminism, the Green movement, globalisation and immigration as forces for good voted to remain in the EU; those who saw them as a force for ill voted by even larger majorities to leave.

 

[Francesca R]

But levels of population increase are also a legitimate concern even for the non-racist/ xenophobes. Is anyone really suggesting that immigration shouldn't have been an issue for consideration during the campaign?

I think it should have had more voices in addition to Nicola Sturgeon championing EU migration as something that there is no need to bring down at all. This was lacking. Remain spokespeople assumed that even their side did not share the view. Ashcroft analysis disagrees with them to some extent if I read it right. This was a remain blunder IMO

I care little for Sturgeon's politics in many areas but on immigration she reflects my views more than any other politician.

 

[MikeG]

The devil might possibly be in the detail.

That's called quote mining. Shall we all play?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Boris sayw there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market.

"The only change - and it will not come in any great rush - is that the UK will extricate itself from the EU's extraordinary and opaque system of legislation: the vast and growing corpus of law enacted by a European Court of Justice from which there can be no appeal."

So that's ok then.

 

[The Don]

Boris sayw there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market.

"The only change - and it will not come in any great rush - is that the UK will extricate itself from the EU's extraordinary and opaque system of legislation: the vast and growing corpus of law enacted by a European Court of Justice from which there can be no appeal."

So that's ok then.

Exactly everything will be exactly as before apart from the bits that you think are bad (and everyone has their own view as to the bad bits) which will magically-smagically will be fixed

 

[McHrozni]

Boris sayw there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market.

"The only change - and it will not come in any great rush - is that the UK will extricate itself from the EU's extraordinary and opaque system of legislation: the vast and growing corpus of law enacted by a European Court of Justice from which there can be no appeal."

So that's ok then.

Yeah. The only way UK can get that is to sign up to the Norwegian model, where they still have to follow the rules and pay in a substantial amount of funds in exchange for following the rules without having a seat at the table. If they want to keep the London City as a massive financial center further concessions may be needed. Plus Scotland and Northern Ireland may leave the UK.

Keep most of the downsides in order to retain some of the benefits. A bargain! Are there any Brexiters with a few million pounds of loose change? I have a very profitable bridge for sale ...

McHrozni

 

[The Don]

Indeed it is/ was. But levels of population increase are also a legitimate concern even for the non-racist/ xenophobes. Is anyone really suggesting that immigration shouldn't have been an issue for consideration during the campaign?

....ignoring the notion that we need an ever-increasing population in order to secure the long-term economic future of the country otherwise, the theory states, we end up with an ageing population and ever-decreasing numbers of economically active people......

EU immigration accounts for around 1/4 of the UK population increase, half is "organic" and the other quarter is from outside the EU. If population increase really is a major problem then you're right it needs to be discussed but leaving the EU doesn't fix it.

I hope everyone who comments on this subject has read Ashcroft's in depth survey post-referendum which I linked to above. The primary motivator for those who voted Leave wasn't immigration, it was the democratic deficit.

The "perceived" democratic deficit. People have bought into the line that the UK must humbly accede to every EU decree which pops into being from a host of faceless, undemocratic EU bureaucrats. This demonstrates an ignorance (willful or accidental) of the way in which the EU works and the UK's position within the EU.

As I've mentioned a few times recently, for decades successive UK governments have taken the line that EU successes are their successes but any unpopular measures should be blamed on the EU (whether true or not). It's also been the case that if the UK "only" gets 99% of what it wants then it has been bullied by that nasty lot in the EU, not that the UK has twisted arms to force the other countries to accept the UK position.

IMO it's political cowardice of the first water (and it's been exhibited by Labour and Conservatives) to engage in negotiations, agree an outcome, rubber stamp its implementation and then bleat about "EU interference" when it later turns out to be unpopular. The EU has been blamed for the ban on filament lightbulbs and energy inefficient vacuum cleaners as if the UK government had no hand it it whatsoever. The UK government IMO did the right thing, because more efficient alternatives were available they sought to get rid of the less efficient alternatives (the British public are very conservative so expecting them to switch for themselves is unreasonable). The public bleated and so the government blamed the EU instead of sticking by, and up for, their decision - political cowardice

Of course had the public not kicked up such a fuss then it would have been the UK Government helping to save the UK consumer money and help to protect the environment

 

[Ape of Good Hope]

That's called quote mining.

Well, pardon me for reading the entirety of the survey you linked to, noting that it doesn't support your assertion to the degree that you assumed it might, and linking to supporting data from said survey.

 

[Francesca R]

The "BRegret" stories from people who voted leave to thumb their nose at Cameron reminds me rather depressingly of the Silastic Armorfiends of Striterax, who got their supercomputer to design an "ultimate weapon" (that was a small bomb which was a junction box in hyperspace that when activated would connect the heart of every major sun with the heart of every other major sun simultaneously and thus turn the entire Universe in to one gigantic hyperspatial supernova.) . . . and then tried to use it to blow up a Strangulous Stilettan munitions dump in one of the Gamma Caves of Carfrax.

Fortunately that weapon was designed with a flaw. The referendum not so much . . . . (unless Cameron's poisoned chalice swansong was the flaw)

http://www.earthstar.co.uk/potatoes.htm

 

[McHrozni]

The "perceived" democratic deficit. People have bought into the line that the UK must humbly accede to every EU decree which pops into being from a host of faceless, undemocratic EU bureaucrats. This demonstrates an ignorance (willful or accidental) of the way in which the EU works and the UK's position within the EU.

As I've mentioned a few times recently, for decades successive UK governments have taken the line that EU successes are their successes but any unpopular measures should be blamed on the EU (whether true or not). It's also been the case that if the UK "only" gets 99% of what it wants then it has been bullied by that nasty lot in the EU, not that the UK has twisted arms to force the other countries to accept the UK position.

IMO it's political cowardice of the first water (and it's been exhibited by Labour and Conservatives) to engage in negotiations, agree an outcome, rubber stamp its implementation and then bleat about "EU interference" when it later turns out to be unpopular. The EU has been blamed for the ban on filament lightbulbs and energy inefficient vacuum cleaners as if the UK government had no hand it it whatsoever. The UK government IMO did the right thing, because more efficient alternatives were available they sought to get rid of the less efficient alternatives (the British public are very conservative so expecting them to switch for themselves is unreasonable). The public bleated and so the government blamed the EU instead of sticking by, and up for, their decision - political cowardice

Of course had the public not kicked up such a fuss then it would have been the UK Government helping to save the UK consumer money and help to protect the environment

That's a very important point you make. All this nonsense about "undemocratic EU bureaucrats" is indeed monumental ignorance. The EU parliament is an elected body, with representation for all member states partially adjusted for population. It's true that it would probably be better to use the US bicameral approach, with one parliament representing solely the population size and the other being based simply on being a member state (the same number of seats for each member state), but what the EU has is still democratic.

It is true however that politicians often abuse EU for their own personal goals. The only way this can be done away with is to increase the power of the EU legislature so member states wouldn't have to pass EU regulations, but that EU regulations would automatically apply across the Union - a federal system in full.

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

The "BRegret" stories from people who voted leave to thumb their nose at Cameron reminds me rather depressingly of the Silastic Armorfiends of Striterax, who got their supercomputer to design an "ultimate weapon" (that was a small bomb which was a junction box in hyperspace that when activated would connect the heart of every major sun with the heart of every other major sun simultaneously and thus turn the entire Universe in to one gigantic hyperspatial supernova.) . . . and then tried to use it to blow up a Strangulous Stilettan munitions dump in one of the Gamma Caves of Carfrax.

Fortunately that weapon was designed with a flaw. The referendum not so much . . . . (unless Cameron's poisoned chalice swansong was the flaw)

http://www.earthstar.co.uk/potatoes.htm

Maybe that's because Cameron knew what happened to the creator of that weapon and didn't want to share it's fate?

McHrozni

 

[Francesca R]

Well I rather think he has been pulverised.

Time will tell if the Brexit side "think better of it and destroy the faulty bomb as well"

 

[catsmate]

Haven't seen any of this but we've had other stories to focus on up here I suppose.

there are plenty of stories out there

 

[catsmate]

A sample but there's lots more.

I think England are playing football tomorrow in France? Let's hope the fans behave.

I suspect the French police will deal appropriately with them.

Facebook is filling up with stories about anyone with a non-British accent and/or non-white skin is reporting an increase in overt racist comments, generally of the, "time for you to **** off," variety.

Exactly. Hopefully the "foreigners" staffing the NHS will be the first to leave.

I don't find half the population suddenly turning racist that believable

No-one other than you has made such a claim.

Yep, existing racists simply emboldened by the Referendum result. Since it went "their" way, they think it's OK to openly espouse their hatred.

BBC News: Anti-Polish cards in Huntingdon after EU referendum

Exactly.

 

[asydhouse]

OTOH the REMAIN crowd were all kiddiefiddlers.

Exactly the attitude that got us into this mess: you make flippant unjustified remarks that don't further the discussion.

I just heard that Boris Johnson has lied that some European business organisation in the EU had assured him that Britain would still have access to free trade in Europe if we leave the EU.

They have denied they ever said that to him. This is the leader of the liars who have misled the populace with bald lies like the 350million. This is the calibre of person we are getting as leaders, trying to pull the wool over the nation's eyes.

 

[kevsta]

Branson weighs in, and linking to the 4chan plaything too

https://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/calling-parliament-take-second-look-eu-referendum

The vast majority of MPs voted in by the electorate want the UK to stay part of Europe. In light of the misrepresentations of the Leave campaign, Parliament should reject the results of this non-binding referendum as Nicola Sturgeon has announced she will do in Scotland’s Parliament. Before the UK government invokes Article 50 of the European Treaty and does irreversible damage to the United Kingdom, the people’s elected representatives must decide whether the facts that have emerged really warrant abandoning the EU and whether a second referendum will be needed.

If you agree that Parliament should take a second look at the EU referendum, please sign this petition.

 

[McHrozni]

Well I rather think he has been pulverised.

Yes, but because the bomb worked.

McHrozni

 

[Francesca R]

Apparently it is not too late, or rather needs the A50 bomb to be detonated . . . .

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

The UK government could in principle at anytime disband the entire elected governments of Scotland, Wales and so on. Personally I don't think there is any chance of that happening but I could see if the will of the UK electorate is being "held hostage" (which is undoubtable the phrase that will be used in such a scenario) to one of those government a quick bit of legislation will remove any such roadblock.

No. In principle they can't. That is the point. At least that is how it has been explained to me. Because the legislation that sets it up also says Westminster can't change it without its consent. That seems to be the entire problem.

Yes it does give such an impression. Apologies and I'll take it back.

However in my view he made very big mistakes not in the interest of his party's objectives, primarily the "walk away from the debt" threat and the insistence that Scotland could help itself to a sterling currency union. I think it was within his grasp to win the '14 IndyRef and his blunders were a significant part of losing it. The smartest thing he did was hand over to Sturgeon.

Being "dumb" the way I (inappropriately) used the word does not mean a politician had no influence. Cameron would be called excessively dumb by the same token for giving the UK a Brexit vote that he did not want. It was a mistake on his part; whether attributed to stupidity or not it was a colossal error the out-turn of which makes Cameron look IMO like a terribly bad PM in the aftermath.

Many folks would call Nigel Farage dumb and I am usually tempted to join them. But arguably it is because of Farage that the UK has just voted to leave, and this would not have happened without his machinations.

I detect how much you would like to ping me as a UKIP supporter or a Donald Trump supporter; the only thing that is is mildly amusing but not very

Everyone makes mistakes but you're quick to brand Salmond dumb because he says things you don't like to hear which grate with your England Under Alles philosophy and then you misinterpret them to suit.

If you want to understand what lost the 14 referendum you might want to analyse the English lies fed to Scotland from people like yourself who insist on dumb things such as not paying someone else's debts is a default or worse still vote no and we will give you what you want later.

You can tell yourself this as often as you like, but one day you should read the actual facts, and one day you should realise that it is extremely unlikely that 52% of the British public are racist, ignorant, flippant, ****wits. It it is beyond ridiculous to cast anyone who voted Leave as an enabler of bigotry and regression. In fact, if you want to find exemplars of stupid generalisations about 'people-not-like-me', go look in the mirror.

52% sounds low. Enabler of bigotry is exactly what they are and if you voted leave it's exactly what you are. Perhaps unwillingly but still enabling nonetheless. Still as a white English male you'll be fine so you can ignore it.

What agreement are you referring to? There is no agreement to authorise unlimited neverendums as far as I know. So BoJo saying "Yah, sorry, not really any appetite for IndyRef 2" is not breaking an agreement, is it?

I don't think he should do that. Constitutional arrangements allow him to.

I don't think the SNP should veto Brexit. Experts whom Michael Gove has had enough of don't seem to think that constitutional arrangements do actually allow her to, but we will see.

Either act would be a profound violation of self determination in my view, even if they are wrapped up as supposedly supporting it.

The agreement and legislation that established the rights of the Scottish Parliament. Westminster can't tell it what to do. So if Westminster can enact their legislation without the SP everything is fine. If not then they have to ask nicely and hope for the best.

Self determination in action. A foreign power can't enforce legislation through a sovereign parliament without its consent.

Most experts seem to think there isn't an issue as you say. but some do.

Indeed it is/ was. But levels of population increase are also a legitimate concern even for the non-racist/ xenophobes. Is anyone really suggesting that immigration shouldn't have been an issue for consideration during the campaign?

I hope everyone who comments on this subject has read Ashcroft's in depth survey post-referendum which I linked to above. The primary motivator for those who voted Leave wasn't immigration, it was the democratic deficit.

Democratic deficit is another way to say how dare those Frogs tell us what to do. Closet xenophobia