"Not intended as a factual statement", Redux.

stokes234 said:
You're right that it's going to be possible in some circumstances, but until anyone wades in with any actual evidence of the above, it's a fairly useless correction.
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Try contacting the investigators. If you feel it's impossible the onus is on you.
 
Newtons Bit said:
Try contacting the investigators. If you feel it's impossible the onus is on you.
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No, the onus is on McCain to back up his "substantial evidence" claim. But he doesn't frequent these forums afaik, so we're left analysing the lack of evidence produced.
 
Newtons Bit said:
Uh, yes, there are lots of ways. Most notably by catching the people who started them. The second most obvious way would be to look at any trash around the fire source. Mexican consumer goods left around the fire would be a good indicator. The most obvious way would be to keep tabs on where the fire started and what level of tourists/campers are in the area vs. number of illegals. That's a statistical basis, but it's pretty easy to infer conclusions.
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Actually, aside from catching the person(s) responsible, none of that means squat when it comes to drawing conclusions as to the immigration status of the fire starter(s).

I can cross the border and bring back Mexican consumer goods. I can start a fire while camping in an area where not many other legal citizens are camping compared to illegal immigrants. Those are nothing more than pure speculation and basing conclusions on that speculation does nothing to solve the actual problem of ignorant people starting brush fires.
 
stokes234 said:
No, the onus is on McCain to back up his "substantial evidence" claim. But he doesn't frequent these forums afaik, so we're left analysing the lack of evidence produced.
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The claim is that McCain is lying/dishonest. That's up to the people making that claim. If you want McCain to back up his statement, then email his office and ask.
 
BobTheDonkey said:
Actually, aside from catching the person(s) responsible, none of that means squat when it comes to drawing conclusions as to the immigration status of the fire starter(s).

I can cross the border and bring back Mexican consumer goods. I can start a fire while camping in an area where not many other legal citizens are camping compared to illegal immigrants. Those are nothing more than pure speculation and basing conclusions on that speculation does nothing to solve the actual problem of ignorant people starting brush fires.
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:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
Newtons Bit said:
Uh, yes, there are lots of ways. Most notably by catching the people who started them. The second most obvious way would be to look at any trash around the fire source. Mexican consumer goods left around the fire would be a good indicator. The most obvious way would be to keep tabs on where the fire started and what level of tourists/campers are in the area vs. number of illegals. That's a statistical basis, but it's pretty easy to infer conclusions.
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The burden of proof for all your 'ways' is on you. You've got some work to do.
1) Even if they catch an arsonist that turns out to be an illegal immigrant, it doesn't prove McCain's claim.
2) Mexican consumer goods prove that the goods came from Mexico and nothing more.
3) The proportion of illegal immigrant campers does not prove that any of them started a fire.
 
Newtons Bit said:
Uh, yes, there are lots of ways. Most notably by catching the people who started them.
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Arizona Forestry officials are not allowed to determine a person's immigration status. At most, they could request the Federal government make that determination.

But again, I don't think anything like that is what happened. The few times the person responsible for starting a wild fire is caught, it's pretty well publicized. I'm pretty sure most of the time the original cause of the fire isn't ever known.

The second most obvious way would be to look at any trash around the fire source. Mexican consumer goods left around the fire would be a good indicator.
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Sure, because you can't buy products made in Mexico in the U.S., and only illegals can possess such products. Therefore any "Mexican consumer goods" is "substantial evidence" that "these wildfires" were started by illegal aliens.
 
Newtons Bit said:
The claim is that McCain is lying/dishonest.
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And he is lying about there being "substantial evidence that some of these fires have been caused by people who have crossed our border illegally". So without any sign of that "substantial evidence", the claim stands.

In effect, when you're defending a claim of the existence of "substantial evidence" the burden of evidence is on you.
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
Sure, because you can't buy products made in Mexico in the U.S., and only illegals can possess such products. Therefore any "Mexican consumer goods" is "substantial evidence" that "these wildfires" were started by illegal aliens.
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Not just in the U.S but in southern Arizona no less.
Wal-Mart here in Mesa does a roaring trade in Coca Cola that is hecho en mexico because they still use the glass bottles that many people prefer and because it is made with sugar instead of HFCS apparently. And that is Coca-Cola at Wal-Mart. The American drink at the American chain.

I am guessing if you are shopping at one of the mercados, carnicerias or yerberias that are all over the place there are far more goods available that are hecho en Mexico. (Actually I am not guessing as I go to them fairly often for carne asada and similar things.)

So no, Mexican goods near a fires source here wouldn't prove much. Maybe a little more than American goods around a fires source in Mexico would prove but not much more.
 
Ausmerican said:
Not just in the U.S but in southern Arizona no less.
Wal-Mart here in Mesa does a roaring trade in Coca Cola that is hecho en mexico because they still use the glass bottles that many people prefer and because it is made with sugar instead of HFCS apparently. And that is Coca-Cola at Wal-Mart. The American drink at the American chain.
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They sell those way up here in St. Louis, MO too.

In fact, there are entire Mexican grocery stores up here.

[ETA: And of course there are plenty of "Mexican consumer goods" that are made in the U.S.A.]

Seems to me there was something about a Free Trade Agreement among North American nations.. . . . .
 
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Ausmerican said:
Not just in the U.S but in southern Arizona no less.
Wal-Mart here in Mesa does a roaring trade in Coca Cola that is hecho en mexico because they still use the glass bottles that many people prefer and because it is made with sugar instead of HFCS apparently. And that is Coca-Cola at Wal-Mart. The American drink at the American chain.
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mmmmmm Mexican Coke.
 
Newtons Bit said:
Uh, yes, there are lots of ways. Most notably by catching the people who started them. The second most obvious way would be to look at any trash around the fire source. Mexican consumer goods left around the fire would be a good indicator. The most obvious way would be to keep tabs on where the fire started and what level of tourists/campers are in the area vs. number of illegals. That's a statistical basis, but it's pretty easy to infer conclusions.
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So we are looking for chiclets and pinatas?

Has it occurred to anyone that any trash at the source of the fire would most likely by destroyed in the fire?

Again I have to ask, "So what?" Why is a U.S. senator wasting our time with this foolish speculation and finger pointing? He should be down there helping his constituents who have lost their homes.
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
They sell those way up here in St. Louis, MO too.

In fact, there are entire Mexican grocery stores up here.

[ETA: And of course there are plenty of "Mexican consumer goods" that are made in the U.S.A.]

Seems to me there was something about a Free Trade Agreement among North American nations.. . . . .
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Heck at most circle K's in Tucson the snacks are all from Mexico. If you have never had ruffles con queso you have not lived!
 
Biscuit said:
Heck at most circle K's in Tucson the snacks are all from Mexico. If you have never had ruffles con queso you have not lived!
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Well, clearly somebody needs to let the statehouse know about this. AZ clearly cannot let such un-American business practices like actually catering to those filthy illegals continue. I mean, if we actually sell products they are interested, they might think they are actually welcome in the great state of AZ, and the legislature has done its best over the last couple of years to show that that is not the case. :rolleyes:
 
He's not running this go round right?

Who cares what McCain says?

He's an idiot.
 
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