"Not Ever" - A Campaign Against Blaming Rape Victims

[Furcifer]

What can men do to become part of the solution?

Reading this a second time it made me scratch my head a bit. Aside from being blatantly obvious it just seems odd.

Approach gender violence as a MEN’S issue.

I never considered it a WOMAN's issue. By default it's a MEN's issue, but I never considered it one. Not like prostate cancer or baldness. I suppose this is correct but it seems like an odd way to put it.

Make sure that the sex you are having is consensual. Do not accept the myth that “no” means “yes”. Understand that submission is not consent. Do not make assumptions about consent, ASK for consent.

I wasn't aware of this "myth". Calling it a myth suggests it never actually happens. It seems more like a way of rationalizing a rape by some scuzzy guy than a myth per se.
I've never asked for permission and I've got along fine. I'd guess 99.9999% of the time people don't ask for or receive consent before having sex. It's probably better to say "If you're unsure and feel the need to ask for consent then don't have sex".

Remember that having sex with someone who is drunk is sexual assault. If an individual is drunk, they cannot legally consent to sex (they cannot make an informed, rational decision).

Uh oh. I think we've all had sex at some point while drunk. There are varying levels of intoxication that are appropriate and inappropriate. Pointing this out seems a little over the top. Is this how they define sexual when they question women? I know I've had drunken sex that was far from what would be considered sexual assault. While I understand the need to point this out to say younger men, I think it ultimately only confuses men and women.

Communicate clearly how you feel and what you want. Listen to your partner. Do not rely on body language.

Again, this should be blatantly obvious. I'm more of the mind that if you are this unsure and you need to explicitly communicate your intentions you should even bother.

Do not make assumptions about consent based on style of dress, body language or previous sexual activity. ASK for consent.

"body language"? really? I'd say almost every time I've had sex consent was made explicit through body language and not verbally.

Understand, and help friends understand, that sexual assault is assault, and has little to do with sex.

Could someone help me understand? I'm not sure what this is getting at.

Do not remain silent, do not look the other way. Become an “active bystander” – confront friends who are becoming disrespectful or abusive towards women. Intervene when a friend is making a decision that could have devastating consequences.

This seems like good advice.

Examine your attitudes about women and men that may perpetuate sexism and violence against women.

Again, good advice

Interrupt actions, comments or jokes that support rape and other acts of violence.

I doubt this will be effective. A joke is a joke and that's all it should be. You might want to have a talk with a buddy if he's getting creepy.


The above list has good intentions, but I'm not sure it's realistic. It comes off like some church group wrote this up for it's youth members. I think we can come up with better ways of getting the message across without seeming so hokey. That's just my opinion.

 

[Furcifer]

Since nobody commented on the link I provided, I'll post the target instead.

This is worse than the one Mycroft reposted.

The repetition makes it seem like a joke. Making a laundry list of "don't rape her" scenarios seems dismissive. At some point you begin to wonder if the author didn't put it on the list is it OK?

"Don’t tell your women friends how to be safe and avoid rape."

Possibly the worst advice I've ever heard.

Guys, if you have a woman friend that's running around, getting drunk and going home with strange guys to "party", if you care, sit down with her and tell her to stop. Tell her you care about her and don't want to see her put herself in a situation where she could get raped or worse. Watch who she leaves the bar with, and make sure she has your number and knows if she needs you to to come pick her up because she's uncomfortable you'll do it.

 

[Skeeve]

This is worse than the one Mycroft reposted.

The repetition makes it seem like a joke. Making a laundry list of "don't rape her" scenarios seems dismissive. At some point you begin to wonder if the author didn't put it on the list is it OK?

"Don’t tell your women friends how to be safe and avoid rape."

Possibly the worst advice I've ever heard.

Guys, if you have a woman friend that's running around, getting drunk and going home with strange guys to "party", if you care, sit down with her and tell her to stop. Tell her you care about her and don't want to see her put herself in a situation where she could get raped or worse. Watch who she leaves the bar with, and make sure she has your number and knows if she needs you to to come pick her up because she's uncomfortable you'll do it.

yes, do this, because it's her fault she gets raped.

 

[tyr_13]

The vast majority of men know rape is wrong and what constitutes rape to begin with even without being specifically told at least as much as women know what behavior is risky and should probably be avoided most of the time.

It seems that everyone is talking past each other and at their own specific straw men.

If it bears repeating that having sex without the other person's consent is rape ('Really? I had no idea! ') then it isn't unreasonable to repeat that getting pass out drunk is a horrid idea for many reasons including that you might get raped ('Wow, things I don't want might happen while I can't move or wake up?').

No one in this thread that I've seen wants to blame the victim or is in any way excusing the actions of rapists of any sex. So can we stop saying that? No one is saying that women shouldn't be allowed to engage in risky behavior. Also no one is saying that women shouldn't know the possible risks of said risky behavior.
Actually someone is saying that. My bad.

 

[tyr_13]

yes, do this, because it's her fault she gets raped.

No. Her actions led to the situation in which she was raped but it's completely the rapist's fault. Do you not understand the distinction? If someone tells me, "Don't eat at Joe's, the burgers suck," is that telling me it's my fault if I go there and the burgers suck? No, it's Joe's fault.

 

[tyr_13]

My reply to this post -- about tyr being in a mental institution -- was moved to AAH... folks, it was a JOKE! I meant to humorously tell tyr the relationship must have driven him crazy...

I didn't see it, but I probably wouldn't have been offended. Now I don't believe I went insane from that, but I don't have any independent verification of that. However, did you know that repeated and prolonged 'blue balls' can have medical complications? I do.

You shouldn't camouflage the humor with that green font.

That's why I didn't see it!

 

[Region Rat]

The vast majority of men know rape is wrong and what constitutes rape to begin with even without being specifically told at least as much as women know what behavior is risky and should probably be avoided most of the time.

It seems that everyone is talking past each other and at their own specific straw men.

If it bears repeating that having sex without the other person's consent is rape ('Really? I had no idea! ') then it isn't unreasonable to repeat that getting pass out drunk is a horrid idea for many reasons including that you might get raped ('Wow, things I don't want might happen while I can't move or wake up?').

No one in this thread that I've seen wants to blame the victim or is in any way excusing the actions of rapists of any sex. So can we stop saying that? No one is saying that women shouldn't be allowed to engage in risky behavior. Also no one is saying that women shouldn't know the possible risks of said risky behavior.
Actually someone is saying that. My bad.

Will you please stop blaming the victim??? Please?

 

[Furcifer]

yes, do this, because it's her fault she gets raped.

With just a little more straw you could build an entire man

If you think bullying someone into accepting some inane annoymous post or misguided campaign with this strawman you're sadly mistaken.

It's actually more predictable than Godwin, "Won't somebody please think of the victim!"

But, just in case you missed it, nobody is faulting the woman. 100% of the fault lies with the man committing the rape or assault. But it would be irresponsible, almost negligent, to not point out the error in someone's way if it serves the better good.

 

[Skeptic]

yes, do this, because it's her fault she gets raped.

Imagine if it were your daughter.

Imagine she came to you and said: "Hey, I think I'll get drunk tonight and go to the hotel room of three guys I barely know".

What would you say?

"That's all right, honey -- remember, if they rape you, it's all their fault, God forbid I tell you not to do it, that's blaming the victim"?

Or would you say, "over my dead body"?

...exactly.

And, yes, it WOULD be their fault if they rape her. But that hardly means her doing what she did is such a hot idea. It won't make her guilty of rape. But it would certainly make her guilty of stupidity.

 

[Skeptic]

That's why I didn't see it!

This is the king's new font.

Only people with a sacrcastic sense of humor can see it.

(Apparently the mods don't qualify...)

 

[Skeptic]

It just occured to me why some people are claiming the analogies with falling for a stupid scam or leaving the keys in the ignition and the car running while not in it are examples of "blaming the victim".

Most of us would say that in some cases, having your car stolen or being fleeced by a scammer would be appropriate punishment -- morally, if not legally -- for being especially stupid and/or greedy. But here the analogy with rape fails: nobody is saying being raped is an appropriate moral punishment for stupidity, now matter how great.

 

[Skeptic]

By the way, as to the original OP, I agree with it. But I think it isn't enough.

Women student drivers should never be taught the rules of the road: they should just be given the driver's seat and told to get on with it. Teaching them that doing such-and-such might cause an accident is blaming the victim, because it's as if we are saying that a woman deserves to be killed in an accident just because she drove in a stupid way.

I don't undestand why we tolerate such terrible sexism in driver's ed classes, frankly.

 

[Skeeve]

Women student drivers should never be taught the rules of the road: they should just be given the driver's seat and told to get on with it. Teaching them that doing such-and-such might cause an accident is blaming the victim, because it's as if we are saying that a woman deserves to be killed in an accident just because she drove in a stupid way.

This is somewhat extreme to what I was trying to (poorly) explain. I'm trying to say that more emphasis needs to be placed on NOT raping as opposed to keeping safe. Common sense should tell you not to flash large amounts of cash around strangers, walk down dark alleys alone, accept rides from strangers, get blind stumbling drunk around strangers, etc...

In this day and age countless stories of rape, assault, murder and robbery have been documented and repeated as warning.

Instilling a greater deal of empathy in the young and you stand a better chance of not raising a rapist. The rapist is the problem, not the victim of the rapist.

I still don't think I'm expressing myself well enough.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

This is the king's new font.

Only people with a sacrcastic sense of humor can see it.

(Apparently the mods don't qualify...)

For what it's worth (and in spite of our past differences in opinion), I saw the joke and laughed


(been there, done that, know exactly the kind of crazy it can drive a person... my sympathies to Tyr )

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

So, if an older man who has the benefit of size, weight, experience, and understanding of the human psyche manipulates a younger, less experienced girl into having sex that she doesn't want by putting her in a position where she is too afraid or confused to say no, then we should blame the girl?

So basically, it's open season on teen girls.

So asking that a girl takes responsibility for who she consents to have sex with makes it open season on them?

If you twist the situation to include intimidation or threats of violence as you seem to be doing then I think most reasonable people who say that's not giving consent freely.

If you are talking about some girl who sleeps with a guy because he promises her the world or because he says he'll leave her if she doesn't, or because all her friends are doing it or whatever other lines the guy can come up with then hell yeah she carries the can for that.

No different to some daft old rich guy who gets strung along by some young pretty thing and loses everything he has.

The adult world is a murky place at times and not everyone is nice, people need to deal with that and if they want to be regarded as adults then they need to be taught to deal with such situations or learn the hard way.

yes, do this, because it's her fault she gets raped.

If I ever have a daughter damn right I am going to tell her how to reduce her probability of being raped because you know what, I'd much rather she didn't get raped than be sitting after the fact telling her that she wasn't to blame.

It's not just about rape either - if you put yourself in situations where you can't control the outcomes then there is a chance that bad things will happen. I know from experience how things can go wrong when you drink more than you should. Lucky all I lost was some money it could have been a lot worse.

So yeah, I will be teaching my daughter about managing risk and being in control of herself. No reason why we can't do that AND make it clear that raping women is not acceptable.

 

[Furcifer]

I'm trying to say that more emphasis needs to be placed on NOT raping as opposed to keeping safe.

This seems to be the great divide in the issue.

I can't really imagine how we could put more emphasis on not raping than we already do as a society. Short of murder it's probably the most heinous of crimes. And even then, we can probably rationalize murder in some cases, but never have I heard one for rape. I suppose if someone put a gun to your head and forced you to rape a woman...even then it's more about rationalizing not being murdered.

Still the number of sexual assaults reported or otherwise is shocking. To me this suggests it's a crime of opportunity. At least among the group that's most at risk, girls and young women between the ages of 16-20.

Every single man knows it's not OK to rape. They know it. Women on the other hand seem to, based on an interpretation of the statistics, not want to acknowledge how dangerous their behaviour is.

Again, nobody is saying this is right, we're just saying that's the way it is. I think we'd all prefer men read the pamphlet and decided not to rape. We realize however this isn't going to happen anytime soon.

I think we all take exception to this being inferred as "blaming the victim". We're not trying to make some legal case to get a rapist's charges reduced. We're just trying to protect women the most logical way given the facts.

 

[Skeptic]

No different to some daft old rich guy who gets strung along by some young pretty thing and loses everything he has.

I always had a soft spot for Anna Nicole Smith's late husband. He married her when he was in his eighties. A mere 63 years of age difference.

His family objected, of course, but he told them to go take a hike:

-- Dad, she only married you for your money and wants to have sex with you so often you'll drop dead and she'll get everything!

-- So?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

The good (?) news is, now that she had passed away, they can be together for all eternity. He's in heaven, she's in hell. Saves on afterlife real estate not having seperate places for that...

 

[Skeptic]

This is somewhat extreme to what I was trying to (poorly) explain. I'm trying to say that more emphasis needs to be placed on NOT raping as opposed to keeping safe.

Do you know a single man (let alone a woman) who thinks rape is OK? I for one had rarely, indeed never, when I think about it, met with anybody of those millions of people who allegedly think rape is OK if the woman wears a short skirt or otherwise behaves in the "wrong" way.

Allow me to be quite skeptical of the alleged "acceptance of rape" in the general population. Murder happens quite a bit too, unfortunately, but that hardly means there is any acceptance that murder is OK -- even on the part of murderers. At most, murderers feel that their particular case is excusable, not that murder in general is.

To me it seems that most rapes are, on the part of the man, due to loss of self-control -- much like most murders are. Serial rapists, like serial murderers, are rare; on the other hand nothing is more common than a "serial" burglar or a "serial" thief (I'll bet it would be hard to find anyone who committed only one burglary, unless they were caught and imprisoned immediately). When people say rape and murder are "crimes of passion", that is what it means.

This means that rape, like murder, is very hard to reduce below a certain level. Social ostracism and education can do only so much to effect those who murder or rape when out of control, while educating girls with basic common sense "how to avoid trouble" goes a long way towards reducing it -- for the same reason you educating girls and boys to "walk away from a fight" or from a situation where serious violence is possible is quite likely to reduce the risk of them being murdered.

Is educating kids to walk away from a fight instead of trying to win it even when they're in the right "encouraging murder"? Declaring "open season on polite teens"? "Blaming the victim"? No, it's basic common sense.

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

This seems to be the great divide in the issue.

I can't really imagine how we could put more emphasis on not raping than we already do as a society. Short of murder it's probably the most heinous of crimes. And even then, we can probably rationalize murder in some cases, but never have I heard one for rape. I suppose if someone put a gun to your head and forced you to rape a woman...even then it's more about rationalizing not being murdered.

Still the number of sexual assaults reported or otherwise is shocking. To me this suggests it's a crime of opportunity. At least among the group that's most at risk, girls and young women between the ages of 16-20.

Every single man knows it's not OK to rape. They know it. Women on the other hand seem to, based on an interpretation of the statistics, not want to acknowledge how dangerous their behaviour is.

Again, nobody is saying this is right, we're just saying that's the way it is. I think we'd all prefer men read the pamphlet and decided not to rape. We realize however this isn't going to happen anytime soon.

I think we all take exception to this being inferred as "blaming the victim". We're not trying to make some legal case to get a rapist's charges reduced. We're just trying to protect women the most logical way given the facts.

I think every man knows its not OK to rape, however there does seem to be a difference of opinion on what constitutes rape. There does seem to be an element that thinks that unless its a guy in a ski mask holding a woman at knifepoint then its not rape, equally some seem to argue that any sex a woman decides she'd rather hadn't happened is rape too.

If rape is a crime of violence and power then that doesn't characterise a situation where a woman is drunk and doesn't object. I wonder if there needs to be more clarity around what is and isn't rape. Thinking aloud but would there be any mileage in having a 'sex without consent' offence on the books as well? I can imagine the objections already but it might add some clarity to the situation.

 

[Morrigan]

And if women continue to engage in high risk activities there will be more rapes.

So can anyone list those high-risk activities? Considering that we've established that most rape victims actually know their aggressor, so it's not even about "walking alone in a dark alley at night" that's relevant here.

So far the only advice I gleaned from this thread is: don't get drunk at a party, ever. Not just, "don't get drunk at a party with men you don't know" because once again, rape victims usually know their aggressors. So, ladies, don't ever get drunks even with friends around. Or if you do, accept the possibility that you might get raped.

Another I saw is about younger girls being pressured by older guys. So another high-risk behaviour would be, "being friends with older guys if you're a teenage girl". Hmm, some advice.

Anything else? What other "high risk behaviour" should we avoid to reduce our chances of getting raped, and to reduce the scorn and lack of sympathy if that should ever happen anyway?

Just curious.