North Korea...

[Malachi151]

How did North Korean get to its present state today?

Korea was a flourishing country with an excellent culture. It was then invaded by imperial Japan, the people were forced into slavery, and the women were taken as sex slaves, and there was a systematic destruction of their culture by the Japanese destroying their knowledge of their past and disrupting all of their traditions.

Typical imperialism.

During WWII Kim Il Sung and Korean Communists put up the fight against the invading Japanese.

After WWII was over Kim Il Sung and the communist party began to start rebuilding the country.

Kim Il Sung asked for Soviet assistance, and when the Soviets began rolling into Korea Americans freaked out.

At this point Eisenhower advised for the creation of the 38th parallel. This was done by the America alone. There was no discussion with anyone, they just decided to divide the country, they went in and established the boarder, and said that was it.

This was done because Korea contained valuable resources that America deemed important to the America economy and security.

Virtually all Koreans hated the division, virtually all Koreans wanted to reunite the country.

After the division Kim Il Sung requested help from Stalin to help him reunite the country. Stalin at first refused. He finally agreed, and the North Koreans invaded the South in what they thought would be a quick push to reunite their country.

Americans interpreted this as communist expansion and part of the strategy of Moscow to engulf the world in communism. Nothing as farther from the truth. The Soviets wanted little to do with Korea and were afraid to get to involved and ended up giving little support. At that time Stalin wanted to stay out of war and make reparations with the west, but Kim Il Sung's prior was re-unification of his country.

The Americans could see only one thing, Soviet aggression, however that was not reality.

The American invaded and the war lasted 3 years with over 1 million North Korean deaths, and tens of thousand of Americans and South Korean deaths.

In the end nothing at all was gained by either side, but it left the North with a determination to reunite Korea.

Kim Il Sung was loved by his people, and when he died his son Kim Jong Il took power.

Like his father, Kim Jong Il's desire is reunification of Korea.

When Clinton took office the North Koreans were starting a nuclear weapons program. The Clinton administration had no idea how to deal with it, and the solution that they came up with was to pressure North Korean with a threat of military action.

Luckily Jimmy Carter had already gone to North Korea and negotiated a peaceful solution in order to get the North Koreans to stop their weapons program.

The Clinton admin was pleased and glad because it was much better than what they were planning, and they agreed.

Then the plan went to congress to get finalized and the Republicans vetoed the plan. Now the North Koreans had been betrayed after they had already stopped their weapons program, and they felt like fools who had been lied to.

Kim Jong Il made the agreements against the wished of his military, and after the Americans backed out then his military told him that he should have listened to them. All it did was validate their distrust in America.

Then they resumed.

Then we went on a diplomatic mission again, this time with Madeline Albright, and again an agreement was reached and Madeline said that she was surprised by how much she could tell that Kim Jong Il really wanted to reach an agreement and she was certain that the weapons programs were just being used as bargaining chips all along. She said that Kim Jong Il was very intelligent, well mannered, attentive, and respectful of her.

What he wanted was help from the west in deescalating the tensions and moving towards unification with South Korea.

The South Koreans also want reunification, and Roh Moo Hyun was elected president of South Korea on a platform of reunification and cooperation with North Korea.

Then Bush was elected. When he came into office he again broke the agreement that had been made with Kim Jong Il by the Clinton administration, this was the second time in 8 years the US had gone back on its word with the North Koreans.

Bush said simply that he didn't trust him and considered them evil.

Now Kim Jong Il was enraged and vowed to continue the nuclear weapons program because the US had proven to them that they really did not want peace. The main thing is that everyone close to the situation thinks that Kim Jong Il and the North Koreans do not want to use or really even to make nuclear weapons, but they feel that it is their own bargaining chip to get what they want. The country is desperate economically, and wants outside aid and reunification with South Korea.

They certainly have their share of faults, but this is where understanding communism in its real implementation is important.

Communism is a reactionary ideology. This is why North Korean is the last standing Stalinist Communist state. They are still fighting something, they are still feeling pressure.

As is the case with essentially every country that went communist after Russia, it was a response to foreign imperialism. The Japanese have caused all of this. Had they not invaded Korean this situation would not exist.

Then, the creation of the 38th parallel was another mistake. The US should have let the Koreans deal with that themselves, it was not our place to go in and divide their country.

There is existence of a foreign presence again provided the catalyst for aggression. They simply did not want us there, they and did not want the division. This again just brought out the worst of the situation. The militants rose to power in opposition, because the people had something to fight against. If there had been nothing to fight against they would not have been militants.

The Koreans were also pissed off because after WWII Japan got off extremely light, after they had been the most barbaric of anyone in the war and the Koreans felt betrayed by the West, who was now allying with Japan, who, in their mind was still the enemy.

The North Korean invasion was not a communist expansion policy, it was simply the Korean people wanting to have their country back.

The invasion by America only made the North Koreans more sure that they were right, the world really was against them. The Japanese had invaded them, the US betrayed them and then prevented unification, and the Soviets didn't give them the kind of support that they were asking for. They felt alone, so they closed up and were determined to be alone and make it on their own, and one day they would unite the country and do things their way. That’s is the ideology that grew in those conditions.

Then, they finally get some confidence in the West again and start to make progress with Carter and Clinton and Roh Moo Hyun and then they have all of that trust broken again.

Obviously they have internal problems, and obviously they are doing things that are not good. But, playing hard ball like Bush and the Republicans want to do is just plain stupid. They are putting everyone at risk because they want to do things their way. This issues could likely have been resolved a couple of years ago with cooperation, but with hardball it only makes the North Koreans more apt to play hardball.

I think that Kim Jong Il is waiting for the elections and if Bush is not elected and whoever gets elected agrees to work with him I think this can be resolved peacefully. If Bush is reelected I think that war is inevitable.

 

[Ziggurat]

Originally posted by Malachi151
Kim Il Sung was loved by his people, and when he died his son Kim Jong Il took power.

Like his father, Kim Jong Il's desire is reunification of Korea.

Amazing what kind of love a little constant propoganda, complete issolation from the outside world, and brutal military dictatorship can get you.

Are you trying to say North Korea are really the good guys in all of this? Look at living conditions in North Korea, compare that with South Korea or even Cuba, and try to tell me honestly that they chose the right path to follow.

 

[NightG1]

How did North Korean get to its present state today?

Kim Il Sung asked for Soviet assistance, and when the Soviets began rolling into Korean Americans freaked out.

At this point Eisenhower advised for the creation of the 38th parallel. This was done by the Americna alone. There wa no discussion with anyone, they just deciced to divide the country, they went in and establsished the boarder, and said that was it.

You forgot the part where Sung invaded the south...typical imperialism. Sung was "beloved by his people" the same way Sadam and Stalin were beloved by theirs. Good grief, crack open a book every once and a while. Can you tell us what vital resources South Korea has that the US was so eager to get its imperialistic hands on?

 

[jj]

You left out the part where results typical of communist governments destroyed the economy, the people, and the culture of North Korea.

Is there a reason you're always so one-sided?

 

[headscratcher4]

Everything about North Korea is a lie. There may be many faults in the West. The US is not without blame for the division of North Korea. But, at least we are free to ask questions...those who ask questions...even simple ones...in North Korea are dead.

The question I have is that no matter how you define it, what they have in North Korea isn't communism...it is a krypto facist monarchy. Other than to condemn the West, what is there to defend about this system or its leaders.

Your hatred of the mistakes and incompetence of the West have completely blinded you to true evil.

 

[Skeptic]

Korea was a flourishing country with an excellent culture. It was then invaded by imperial Japan, the people were forced into slavery, and the women were taken as sex slaves, and there was a systematic destruction of their culture by the Japanese destroying their knowledge of thier past and disrupting all of their traditions.

You mean, just like Mao did in China during the "cultural revolution"?

At any rate, after Japan was defeated by the evil imperialistic forces of Britian and the USA (the USSR didn't fight in the pacific until August 45, after the bombing of Hiroshima), one part became CAPITALIST, the other, COMMUNIST. One guess as to which part is now prosperous and which is starving.

 

[Dancing David]

Uh, Malachi is there a Cliff Notes version of your post?

Which side recieved the better funding after the division?

 

[hgc]

I decided to pick only the juciest slice of malachi's fairy tale...

In the end nothing at all was gained by either side, but it left the North with a determination to reunite Korea.

Come now, wouldn't you say that the Koreans in South Korea gained quite a bit by not living the last 50 years in North Korea?

Gee I wonder if they think to themselves, "Too bad we couldn't have lived the last half century under the Great Leader/Dear Leader, and be the most starving, backwards, isolated, cultish, distorted, repressed people on the face of the Earth. Too bad we have to live with one of the strongest, fastest growing economies in Asia, with a standard of living better than most of the world. Boy what a terrible idea to resist the Great Leader and our Soviet benefactors so long ago. We didn't gain a thing."

 

[headscratcher4]

Korea was a flourishing country with an excellent culture. It was then invaded by imperial Japan, the people were forced into slavery, and the women were taken as sex slaves, and there was a systematic destruction of their culture by the Japanese destroying their knowledge of thier past and disrupting all of their traditions.

Fortunately, under the great leader, it was Koreans who turned the Koreans into slaves and destroyed their culture...because being starved to death, left ignorant, beaten, abused, etc. by the Great Leader is so much better than having Imperial Japan do it...

Please explain to me how the North Koreans have improved on the horrible situation your quote describes..ah, yes, they have their Dignity....oh yes, it is also a worker's state, where you can't strike, can't petition for higher wages, can't choose the work you do, can't organize alternative political viewpoints or parties, can't question the dictats of the Party....yes, from the depth of misery at the hands of the Japanese, they've formed a true worker's paradise!

 

[headscratcher4]

By the way, based on your historical analysis, it seems quite possible that by just changing a few of the players in the senario and altering dates, you could justify Nazi Germany.....

 

[Doubt]

How did North Korean get to its present state today?

Korea was a flourishing country with an excellent culture. It was then invaded by imperial Japan

1st major inaaccuracy. Korea was already being run by an imperal power before the Japanese inavded. The Japanese were far worse than the Russians, but Korea was not a functioning independent country at the time they were invaded. You notion of Korea as a “flourishing country” is a flat out lie.

http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/romeo/russojapanese1904.htm

Russo-Japanese War (1904-05), military conflict in which a victorious Japan forced Russia to abandon its expansionist policy in the Far East, becoming the first Asian power in modern times to defeat a European power.

The Russo-Japanese War developed out of the rivalry between Russia and Japan for dominance in Korea and Manchuria.

During WWII Kim Il Sung and Korean Communists put up the fight against the invading Japanese.

After WWII was over Kim Il Sung and the communist party began to start rebuilding the country.

Kim Il Sung asked for Soviet assistance, and when the Soviets began rolling into Korea Americans freaked out.

2nd major piece of doo-doo. Omission of many facts here. Kim spent over half the war in the Soviet army. He was a hand picked leader for the North by the Soviets. You also fail to mention that the Soviets prevented the UN from holding elections in North Korea. Kim may have started out as a partisan, but in the end he was a puppet. Typical imperialism.

http://www.kimsoft.com/korea/kimilsun.htm

March 15, 1941 - The Soviets detained Kim Il Sung and his band of guerrillas of about 25 men and subjected them to lengthy interrogations. They were forced into the Red Army. Later some of them fought the Germans in Stalingrad and beyond until the end o f WW2. Kim Il Sung and his partisans were pressed into the 88th Special Independent Guerrilla Brigade of the Soviet Army. The main task of this unit was to gather military intelligence in Manchuria. The 88th was located in a wooded area of Vyachkra near khabarovsk (Siberia).

Kim Il Sung commanded the 1st Battalion (about 200 Chinese, Koreans and Russians) of the 88th Brigade. The Brigade had about 60 Korean partisans from Manchuria

* snip *

Sept. 19, 1945 - Kim Il Sung and his second wife Kim Chong Suk returned to Korea from Siberia. Kim and his guerrillas numbering about 40 (and their families) arrived at Wonsan, compliment of the Soviet warship Pukachev. The US intelligence file on Kim Il Sung states - "Faced with the threat of extinction by the Japanese, a few hundred under the leadership of Kim Il Sung, long time Communist, made their way North and into the Soviet Maritime Province. After verifying their political and military backgrounds, the Soviets established these people in a training camp at YASHKI Station, in the general area of KHABAROVSK. Here and later at RARARASH, near the junction of the USSR-Korea and Manchurian frontiers these Koreans were trained in espionage, radio communications, sabotage and general military subjects. From 1941-45, these people were utilized by the Soviets as agents in MANCHURIA. In the spring of 1945, in addition to normal political training, they were briefed on KOREA and Korean politics."

Oct. 14, 1945 - Kim Il Sung (photo: Kim and his Soviet adviser) was given a hero's welcome at the Pyongyang Municipal Stadium.

So just what is your source for you history, Malachi? I recommend that you take a vacation to UN compound on the DMZ and tell me you think you see on the other side.

 

[Malachi151]

Man, you guys are really sad.

Its simply a matter of trying to understand how and why developments take place.

The north Korean position is clearly reactionary. That's important to understand in learning how to prevent these types of things from happening in the future, and also how to deal with them in the present.

Korea was a fine country until it was invaded by Japan. The conditions in North Korea today are a derect result of that invasion, there is really no doubt about that.

When the Japanese invaded Kim Il Sung was one of the military leadrs that fought the invasion. So to the Koreans he was a war hero, and truely he was a hero to all Koreans, North and South because there was no division in Korea until America put it there. The Koreans did not consider themselves two people, they considerd themselves one. In some cases familes were split and torn apart.

After the war there was certianly propaganda in support of Kim Il Sung, but he was loved before that because people who him as a leader in defending the country. He was a kind of Eisenhower of Korea. Of course he was played up, every leader is in every country. The propagand in favor of Kim Il Sung was more than the type we see in the West but it was consistant with Asian culture actually, nothing really out of the ordanry about it in that respect.

To say that the North Koreans invading South Korean was imperialism is laughable. That's like saying if Russa had divided the US in half that the North invading the South to reunite the country would be imperialism.

The issue is that many Koreans want the country to be reunited, on both sides. America is the one that divided it. What the North is fighting for is unification. That's why the "communists" are still in power, because they have an "opponent".

Communism has not existed anywhere without an opponent. Once you take the opponent away where it no reason to have a Stalinist communist state. The North Koreans only concern is themsleves and the unification go Korea, they are not on any mission to to anything to the rest of the world and never have been.

The only reason that they went communist in the first place was because that was who was helping then in the fight against Japan, that's where their support was coming from. It really had very little to do with any ideology other than being opposed to occupation.

The issu enot whether these people are using right or wrong approaches, they are obviously using wrong approaches to their situation, the question is why?

The anwser is in reaction to invastion, occupation, destruction of their civilization by the Japanese, and betrayal by the West.

Without these factors they would not be doing what they are doing today.

Look at the situaiton in South Korea though, all it did was strengthen the view of the North Koreans that they were right.

Dr. Rhee Syngman ruled South Korea from 1948 until his downfall in 1960. His fanatic anti-communism made him a darling of the United States. In spite of his professed faith in Christianity, he had more Koreans killed than any other tyrants in the Korean history.

He was the man behind the Cheju 4.3 Massacre, the Daejun Massacre, the Suwon Massacre, the blowing up the Hangang Bridge, assassination of Kim Ku and Yo Woon Young and countless other killings of Koreans.

Although Dr. Rhee dominated Korea for over ten years, little information is available on him on the Internet and what little cyber-information available is mostly false or inaccurate. For example, one source claims that Rhee presided over a 'government in exile in Hawaii'. Another source claims Rhee was from the royal family line. Most history books praise him as the 'tiger of Korea', democratically elected founder of Korea, most revered by all Koreans even today, and so on.

Nothing can be further from truth.

http://www.kimsoft.com/2000/rhee.htm

Rhee was forced to resign becuase of protests to his rule. His US backed tyranny made the North Koreans all the more certian that they were corect in opposing the US all along. Again we see the issue of reactionary ideology. The Koreans were reacting to pressure. That is what shaped their ideology and society.

The point here is that the conditions in North Korean, definately bad, have been the result of reactionary measures taken by a scared and isolated society that does nto feel it can trust anyone. That lack of trust is well deserved because they were betrayed by the Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Americans, and the South Koreans.

When you get s%!t on enough times you start to get pissed off.

The point of history is to understand how and why things happen.

Understanding why North Korea is the way it is today is knowing what has happend in North Korean over the past 100 years. In those 100 years it has been invaded, destroyed, enslaved, divided, and betrayed. In that type of situation of course one can expect a country like North Korean to emerge.

Its just like child psychology. When a child is abused by their parents its likely that they will be abusive themselves. That still leaves you with a problem to deal with, but its still also useful to understand how the problem was created in the first place.

This crisis could have been averted, now it may be too late.

 

[hgc]

Kim Il Sung's resistance fighter credentials sound just like those of Ferdinand Marcos. But we don't even have to worry over the varacity of these accounts, since they're completely irrelevant to what he did to the country (the half he controlled) after taking power.

To that point, you make the claim that if the country hadn't been split in two, he would have led them in a different direction, that the presense of the enemy to the south forced him to turn the country into the totalitarian wonderland it is today. That it is the outside threat that forced him to establish a cult of personality and to make himself leader for life, and to bend the will of an entire nation to his every whim, with no check on his personal power, to hand over the reins of power to his own kin after his death, and so forth.

Let's examine that: on the one hand, we know what Kim did with his leadership position, and on the other hand, we have your opinion of what he would have done if he had the whole Korea under his control instead of just half of it. Sorry, it don't fly.

 

[headscratcher4]

Kim Il Sung is a hero, because in the north, he proclaimed himself to be one and no one can view or interpert history or his performance with out being murderd.

History, of course, records many murderers and psychopaths as heros, but one wonders if the starving people of North Korea had even the slightest inkling of how the average South Korean lives (and vice/versa) if the Kim dynasty could survive.....

P.S. the worst thing about communists like the Kims and their flunkies isn't the tragic murder of people, culture, initative, etc. -- all horrible in the extreme -- it is the murder of ideas...note the signiture below...typical North Korean propoganda writing...it is meaningless, blather and banal in the extreme.

 

[Doubt]

Funny how you post a quote that has so few facts. From your own source:

http://www.kimsoft.com/2000/rhee.htm

On April 8, 1919, the Korean Provisional Government (KPG) was established in the French Concession of Shanghai. Rhee Syngman (in absentia) was elected president, Yi Tong Whi defense minister (later, premier) and Kim Kyu Sik foreign minister. The KPG had its own parliament, press, and a military school in Shanghai. The original founders of KPG represented a broad spectrum of the Korean political ideologies united in the common cause of Korean independence.

On Sept. 23, 1919, Gen. Yi Tong Whi took over the premiership of the Korean Provisional Government in Shanghai. Gen. Yi filled high positions in the KGP with his fellow members of the Korean People's Socialist Party. Yi's effort to regroup KPG into a united front failed, however. The exiles split into two primary groups: Yi's group who favored military actions with Soviet backing and Rhee Syngman's group which favored diplomatic channels working closely with America.

On Dec. 8, 1920, Rhee Syngman arrived in Shanghai. Rhee was elected president of the KPG in 1919, in absentia, but this was the first time Rhee set foot in the KPG office.

On Jan. 26, 1921, Shanghai, the Korean Provisional Government split openly. When Rhee's faction learned about Lenin's gold rubles, an open hostility toward Gen. Yi erupted. Rhee Syngman accused Kim Rip of embezzling funds to finance his sex habits. Kim Rip was assassinated and Gen. Yi parted company with the KPG.

Unfortunately for the KGP, Rhee was more interested in fermenting dissension in the ranks than in forming a united front against Japan. Rhee was finally expelled by Kim Ku from the KPG in 1925 for embezzelements (in 1960, he was expelled again, being accused of taking $20 million from his Seoul government among other misdeed). Kim Ku became the president.

Rhee returned to Hawaii in disgrace. From 1925 to 1945, Rhee attempted to pass himself off as the sole representative of Korea even though the Korean Provisional Government disowned him in 1925. The US State Dept. officials wrote him off as an old man out of touch and representing no one but himself in Korea.

In America, Rhee's financial problems worsened and he turned to the Soviets for help. On his train tip to Moscow, Rhee met a young Austrian woman, Francisca Donner. Rhee was refused entry to the Soviet Union. Bitterly disappointed, he returned to Hawaii but kept in touch with Miss. Donner.

So here we have evidence of Soviets trying to export communism into Korea from before 1920. Also the US was involved. Rhee also tried to get help from the Soviets but was rebuffed.

History is not just looking at the facts you like. Lets try to see if you can avoid confirmation bias for a while Malachi. Where would you rather live. North Korea or South Korea? Why is the North a failed state?

 

[hgc]

...

History, of course, records many murderers and psychopaths as heros, but one wonders if the starving people of North Korea had even the slightest inkling of how the average South Korean lives (and vice/versa) if the Kim dynasty could survive.....

...

I heard the story once that when N. Korean delegation visited Seoul, and images of the city were broadcast in the north, they were told that the city didn't really look like that, that the S. Koreans had built up a gigantic stage set of a city and shipped in millions of people -- all for propoganda purposes.

How to make Hell-on-Earth look like a "workers' paradise?" Restrict all information about the outside world. I have a feeling that N. Koreans know anyway that something is askew.

 

[Malachi151]

1st major inaaccuracy. Korea was already being run by an imperal power before the Japanese inavded. The Japanese were far worse than the Russians, but Korea was not a functioning independent country at the time they were invaded. You notion of Korea as a “flourishing country” is a flat out lie.

Well, not according to the history I have seen, both on TV and in the books. Under the Czarist Russians they still had all of their culture in tact. They were not slaves, they did not have to adopt foreign names, they were allowed to speack their own language, as was the case under Japan. The culture was still very strong.

Russo-Japanese War (1904-05), military conflict in which a victorious Japan forced Russia to abandon its expansionist policy in the Far East, becoming the first Asian power in modern times to defeat a European power.

The Russo-Japanese War developed out of the rivalry between Russia and Japan for dominance in Korea and Manchuria.

Yes and? This only reinforces the point that Korea has been destroyed by imperialism. And just to make is clear to you, this is Czarist Russia that is being discussed here, which is who the Communsits overthrew because they opposed imperalism and disapproved of thier government. Of course once Stalin came to power some of that changed, but its a compltely differnet country in 1904 and after 1917. None of that matters fo the Koreans though, they were the victems no matter who or what the situation.

Kim spent over half the war in the Soviet army. He was a hand picked leader for the North by the Soviets. You also fail to mention that the Soviets prevented the UN from holding elections in North Korea. Kim may have started out as a partisan, but in the end he was a puppet. Typical imperialism

So what that Kim was apart of the Soviet army? That's how he was trianed. Just because he was a part of the amry does not mean he was a puppet. In fact we now know that he was not a puppet of the Soviets, but that is what was assumed at the time.

We now know that it was he that requested to invade South Korea to unite it and that Stalin opposed. We now know that he broke with the USSR on many issues and outlined a strategy of independance and nationalism and did not want to rely on any country because he felt betrayed by the Soviets during the Korean War.

Not a single Soviet fought in the Korean War. Stalin didn't want the war because he felt it would hurt his relations with the West, which he knew would not be good. He was correct in a very profound and world chaning way. Stalin tried to explain to him how it would be bad for the Communist movement to do this, but Kim did not care about that, his concern was unification.

So just what is your source for you history, Malachi? I recommend that you take a vacation to UN compound on the DMZ and tell me you think you see on the other side.

Well, that last bit just confirmed what I had been saying. He was loved by his people because of his opposition to the Japanese invasion. How are you going to take issue with that?" At that time he was officailly a US ally and his actions were part of the allied effort to win the war. So yes, actually he helped us win WWII. Not a decisive role, but he was fighting on the allied side in that war. Then, shortly after, we turned on him and our other allies and we allied with Japan and Germany and immediately started to invade China and inflitrate Russia.

The immediate invasion of China in 1945 made the Koreans all the more defensive. Then when the US divided the country and allied with Japan and let the Japanese war criminals off the hook, the Koreans were outraged. What do you expect?

 

[jj]

Malachi, you haven't addressed a very simple point, North Korea is in the same situation as every country that's tried communism, it's bankrupt, the people are starving, and the government has devolved into a totalitarian state.

I submit that those are the direct real-life outcomes of communist philosopy.

 

[Malachi151]

Funny how you post a quote that has so few facts. From your own source:

http://www.kimsoft.com/2000/rhee.htm

So here we have evidence of Soviets trying to export communism into Korea from before 1920. Also the US was involved. Rhee also tried to get help from the Soviets but was rebuffed.

History is not just looking at the facts you like. Lets try to see if you can avoid confirmation bias for a while Malachi. Where would you rather live. North Korea or South Korea? Why is the North a failed state?

I'm not exactly sure where you get that from out of that text, but yes, I'm sure that they were, the communist movement was global. There were over a million of communists in the United States in 1919 as well.

This is no defense of North Korea, and I have no idea why people are trying to make it out to be one. The issue why have they reacted in the way that they have. What forces have shaped their civilization? The country has have a very hard time, it has sufferened many invasions and occupations.

Do you really think that if America were invaded and about 10% of the of women were tunred into sex slaves for the invaders, everyone was forced to speak a different language, everyone had to adopt foreign names, all history was rewirtten, about 20% of the able bodies men were forced into slavery, and tens of millions of people were killed and tortured and this went on for about 20 years, then after that and a giant world war the country that had helped to fight off our allies allied with our opponents against us as soon as the war was over, and then divided our contry in half, and the only ally we had left then backed out on us and didn't support us either. Don't you think that the country just *might* get a little extreme and militant?

Obviously their current culture is abad one and a problematic one, the issue I am saying is that its a product of the abuse that they have taken.

As for South Korean, their history has not been so great either. They have really only done well just recently especially since the Olympics.

http://asiarecipe.com/korhistory.html

20th Century
1910 - 45: During its occupation, Japan built up Korea's infrastructure, especially the street and railroad systems. However, the Japanese ruled with an iron fist and attempted to root out all elements of Korean culture from society. People were forced to adopt Japanese names, convert to the Shinto (native Japanese) religion, and were forbidden to use Korean language in schools and business. The Independence Movement on March 1, 1919, was brutally repressed, resulting in the killing of thousands, the maiming and imprisoning of tens of thousands, and destroying of hundreds of churches, temples, schools, and private homes. During World War II, Japan siphoned off more and more of Korea's resources, including its people, to feed its Imperial war machine. Many of the forced laborers were never repatriated to Korea.

1945 - 60: The Japanese surrender on August 15, 1945, cause the peninsula to came under divided rule: the USSR occupied Korea north of the 38th parallel, while the U.S. occupied the southern section. Under UN auspices, a democratic government established the Republic of Korea (South Korea) in 1948 with its capital in Seoul. The Communists established the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea) with its capital in P'yongyang. On June 25, 1950, the North Korean Army invaded the South, starting the Korean War. UN forces helped the South while Communist Chinese volunteers sided with the North, resulting in a three year war which left millions dead on both sides. (The Korean War section gives greater detail about this period, including a day-by-day calendar with historical events, diary entries from people who were there, and period photographs.) Student protests against the corrupt [South Korean] government caused Syngman Rhee to step down as president in 1960.

1961 - 79: On May 16, 1961, General Park, Chung Hee organized a military coup and toppled the civilian [South Korean] government. He then established martial law and later had himself elected president. Though his leadership was oppressive, President Park instigated many economic and social changes which helped elevate Korea into and industrializing nation. Major infrastructure enhancements, including the Seoul-Pusan expressway and the Seoul subway system, began under his regime. The Korean CIA chief assassinated President Park on October 26, 1979.

1980 - 87: In the power vacuum left by President Park's death, General Chun, Doo Hwan staged a military coup and seized power on May 17, 1980. After re-establishing martial law, he had himself elected President and banned several hundred former politicians from campaigning. A military crackdown against student protests in the southern city of Kwangju resulted in hundreds of deaths and injuries. Although his rule was more lenient than General Park's, and he adopted many reforms, the Korean people became tired of military rule. Violent student demonstrations in 1987 forced President Chun to implement more social reforms and hold presidential elections in 1988.

1988 - 92: General Noh, Tae-woo, Chun's chosen political successor, won the presidential election. The opposition party failed to field a single candidate, splitting the opposition vote and giving Noh a comfortable win. During his term, President Noh's government established diplomatic relations with many non-capitalist countries, including the People's Republic of China and the Soviet Union, both long-term allies of communist North Korea. The successful hosting of the 1988 Olympic Games brought Korea to the center stage of world recognition.

1992 - 1996: The election of President Kim, Young-sam ushered in a new era of civilian rule. Since taking office he worked hard to reform the widely criticized regulatory system through his "New Economy" and "Globalization" programs. The implementation of the real-name financial transaction act put an end to the easy hiding of hot money. Another 2,000 rules and regulations were abolished or amended during Presdient Kim's term. Despite the many contibutions he made, Kim, Young-sam will probably be remembered most for the dismal economic situation the country was in when he left office.

1997 - present: The election of President Kim, Dae-jung marked the first time an opposition leader has been elected as president in Korea. After failing in four other attempts to win the popular vote, his party joined with the party of Kim, Jong-pil, and riding the population's growing resentment towards the ruling party, gained the narrow majority needed to gain the presidency. His term immediately got off to the rocky start when the former ruling party boycotted the National Assembly session which was to have confirmed President Kim's choice of cabinet and prime minister candidates.

Now, really South Korean didn't start doing well until the late 80s politically, and didn't do well economically until just recently. South Korea's post WWII history is as bloody or bloodier than North Korea's. Right now yes, most certianly South Korea is much better off, but that has not always been the case. Dissent by the South Koreans has been what has led to progress, and unforunately there is very little dissent in North Korea due to the propaganda.

My point, the country has have a very hard time, and their curent state is a reaction to those hard times.

 

[Jude]

I'm still waiting for Malachi151's thread that explains how it was, in fact, American imperialism that killed Jesus Christ.