Hutch
A broken man on a Halifax pier, the last of Barret
And as a fellow student, you know Grant's greatest unacknowledged skill was his abilty to manuever and outfox his opponent into an untenable position rather than his reputation of hitting them head-on...
But is it in our self-interest to possibly alienate and in the worst case, destabilize a long and valued ally?
I stand corrected. However, to the Chinese, it will still come as an unpleasant surprise in that US behavior has changed--and again, IMHO, I don't think the Middle Kingdom likes surprises--what they will make of it, I really don't know.
Indeed, and they did so well 6-12 years ago...
You cannot discount the possibility--If in their minds they think they could win--and we do not know what is in their minds.
Indeed, I do agree with you here--but the risks of failure remain.
well, Kerberos schooled both of us, I think
Thoughtfully, Hutch
I think we've spilled enough of our own blood and treasure there, on their behalf, during the last 60 years, that we have earned the right to consider our well-being before we consider theirs.
If they believe otherwise, they can always invite us to leave. Of course, that might mean they'd have to start paying for a little more of their own national defense, but if my understanding is correct, most Oriental cultures don't like to be in the position of mendicant.
Well, I'm sure they've been very content to see us spending untold billions defending South Korea.
Do you have any doubt as to the outcome?
My bet as to what would happen: A fifteen-minute news cycle. NK would huff and puff and their hilarious official news agency* would print a couple of furious diatribes, and that would be the end of it. All public record of their ICBM would vanish, 1984-like. They would not launch an attack against SK, because they know that it would be a disaster - at least for the NK military.
Every war entails risk. Going to work every day entails risk. Allowing an unstable nutjob who hates you to develop nuclear weapons and delivery systems entails unacceptable risk.
Doesn't know who Judah P. Benjamin was without googling it, I bet.
*Warning: Turn off your ActiveX if you're still using IE instead of FireFox; I somehow don't think they're particularly careful about whether or not you'd be getting a virus or something from their web pages.
Elind
Philosopher
We all know about the Star Wars concepts from years ago. We know what is operational and what is experimental. If you want to speculate that all the current anti missile expense was just a front for the "real" sooper sekret laser systems, be my guest.
You seem to think it's a simple matter to track something the size of a garbage can travelling at thousands of miles per hour a hundred or so miles overhead from a rocking fishing trawler in the middle of the ocean. Your faith in N Korean technology exceeds mine it seems. So, to answer your question, I very much doubt it.
Crossbow
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
True enough! We know right where the missile is.
That is quite accommodating of them.
True enough! But that is still not quite the same thing as knowing in advance when the missile will be launched.
That is not quite so accommodating.
I am not so sure about that. They may aim the missile in such a way that it will be conveniently positioned for interception by the US ABM system, but then again they may not do such a thing.
That is not very accommodating of them.
I do think you getting a bit off track here. While the Korean missile may possibly be fitted with a transponder that they can track, that does not mean that this transponder could be tracked by the US system as well.
That is not very accommodating either.
In regards to "accommodating", please see above.
And I for one am talking about the current situation.
WEll bombing a NK missile is hardly a threat to Chinese National security, I'm not saying they'd be thrilled, but I don't think they'd do anything rash either. If NK invades and US rolls them back to the Chineese border that is likely to be a major probelm to them, but not as I see it just blowing up a missile.
Castro wanting to start WWIII fits into the 'common knowlege' category, or at least I thought it did. I've heard the story for many years but the best source I have is the documentary "Fog of War". Robert McNamara describes a telephone conversation with Castro where he admits this and adds, "You would have done the same". Of course, McNamara was shocked and horrified and told Castro he was wrong. So much for rational leaders. I recommend that everyone watch this documentary if you get a chance. Some of you think Huntster is an extremist, but apparently, you've never heard of Curtis LeMay. I saw it recently and I learned a lot I didn't know about the bombing of Japan, the cold war, and how we got involved in the Vietnam conflict.
Once again, some of you are showing extreme gaps in your knowlege of US missile defense systems. The airborne laser project (ABL) has been around for quite a while. It is a 747 with a laser attached to its head that can shoot down a missile in its boost phase:
http://www.boeing.com/images/video_thumbs/Missile_Defense_200video.jpg
and
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/abl/pics-clips/abl15.html
According to the Boeing ABL site, the prototype system completed ground testing in December of last years. I don't see anything on the Boeing site about when the system is supposed to be ready for flight testing though. Visit the site and click around a bit. There's some interesting information on the Boeing site for all you wanna-be strategic defense experts:
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/abl/index.html
I agree that the KKV is our 'only' option because it is the only one that has been deployed. I don't know the status of the ABL tests or when it might be ready for an early test deployment.
Once again, some of you are showing extreme gaps in your knowlege of US missile defense systems. The airborne laser project (ABL) has been around for quite a while. It is a 747 with a laser attached to its head that can shoot down a missile in its boost phase:
http://www.boeing.com/images/video_thumbs/Missile_Defense_200video.jpg
and
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/abl/pics-clips/abl15.html
According to the Boeing ABL site, the prototype system completed ground testing in December of last years. I don't see anything on the Boeing site about when the system is supposed to be ready for flight testing though. Visit the site and click around a bit. There's some interesting information on the Boeing site for all you wanna-be strategic defense experts:
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/abl/index.html
I agree that the KKV is our 'only' option because it is the only one that has been deployed. I don't know the status of the ABL tests or when it might be ready for an early test deployment.
I think LeMay prefered to go all out nuclear, nomatter what the occasion! Even the young kids were practicing their "Duck and Cover" techniques in school back then.
Watch "Dr. Strangelove" - you won't be disappointed. It's a great satirical movie.
Dcdrac
Philosopher
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General Jack D. Ripper: Mandrake, do you recall what Clemenceau once said about war?
Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: No, I don't think I do, sir, no.
General Jack D. Ripper: He said war was too important to be left to the generals. When he said that, 50 years ago, he might have been right. But today, war is too important to be left to politicians. They have neither the time, the training, nor the inclination for strategic thought. I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.
Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: No, I don't think I do, sir, no.
General Jack D. Ripper: He said war was too important to be left to the generals. When he said that, 50 years ago, he might have been right. But today, war is too important to be left to politicians. They have neither the time, the training, nor the inclination for strategic thought. I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.
Dcdrac
Philosopher
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2006
- Messages
- 5,141
General "Buck" Turgidson: General Ripper called Strategic Air Command headquarters shortly after he issued the go code. I have a phone transcript of that conversation if you'd like me to to read it.
President Merkin Muffley: Read it!
General "Buck" Turgidson: Ahem... The Duty Officer asked General Ripper to confirm the fact that he *had* issued the go code, and he said, uh, "Yes gentlemen, they are on their way in, and nobody can bring them back. For the sake of our country, and our way of life, I suggest you get the rest of SAC in after them. Otherwise, we will be totally destroyed by Red retaliation. Uh, my boys will give you the best kind of start, 1400 megatons worth, and you sure as hell won't stop them now, uhuh. Uh, so let's get going, there's no other choice. God willing, we will prevail, in peace and freedom from fear, and in true health, through the purity and essence of our natural... fluids. God bless you all" and he hung up.
[beat]
General "Buck" Turgidson: Uh, we're, still trying to figure out the meaning of that last phrase, sir.
President Merkin Muffley: There's nothing to figure out, General Turgidson. This man is obviously a psychotic.
General "Buck" Turgidson: We-he-ell, uh, I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in.
President Merkin Muffley: General Turgidson! When you instituted the human reliability tests, you *assured* me there was *no* possibility of such a thing *ever* occurring!
General "Buck" Turgidson: Well, I, uh, don't think it's quite fair to condemn a whole program because of a single slip-up, sir.
President Merkin Muffley: Read it!
General "Buck" Turgidson: Ahem... The Duty Officer asked General Ripper to confirm the fact that he *had* issued the go code, and he said, uh, "Yes gentlemen, they are on their way in, and nobody can bring them back. For the sake of our country, and our way of life, I suggest you get the rest of SAC in after them. Otherwise, we will be totally destroyed by Red retaliation. Uh, my boys will give you the best kind of start, 1400 megatons worth, and you sure as hell won't stop them now, uhuh. Uh, so let's get going, there's no other choice. God willing, we will prevail, in peace and freedom from fear, and in true health, through the purity and essence of our natural... fluids. God bless you all" and he hung up.
[beat]
General "Buck" Turgidson: Uh, we're, still trying to figure out the meaning of that last phrase, sir.
President Merkin Muffley: There's nothing to figure out, General Turgidson. This man is obviously a psychotic.
General "Buck" Turgidson: We-he-ell, uh, I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in.
President Merkin Muffley: General Turgidson! When you instituted the human reliability tests, you *assured* me there was *no* possibility of such a thing *ever* occurring!
General "Buck" Turgidson: Well, I, uh, don't think it's quite fair to condemn a whole program because of a single slip-up, sir.
Indeed. I think the General liked the idea of 10 especially selected hotties for every man; with plenty of time on their hands, waiting for the radioactive clouds to clear. Then the fun part - repopulation. No wonder LeMay loved nuclear war.
Dcdrac
Philosopher
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2006
- Messages
- 5,141
