Norad?

[A-Train]

You still seem to be missing the point that CS was making. Being able to see it on the radar, and knowing where it physically was with regard to the ground, ie an exact Latitude and Longitude, are different things and the second is not possible with their system.

This is a candidate for a Stundie.

I have no clue to what you mean by "where it physically was with regard to the ground," but seeing it on radar is all anybody needs to know where a craft is and therefore how to find it. NEADS may have wanted a Lat/Long, instead of a radial distance from a fix, and Boston may have been slow to get it-- but so what? NEADS did not need to see the aircraft on their radar just to get the fighters up in the air!

NORAD wanted the Latitude and Longitude. Boston wasn't able to determine that, only a vector which was useless to NORAD. It took them time to figure out a way to convert their data to something NORAD could use and until NORAD had that data, they weren't going to launch the fighters because they didn't have a position the of their target, a target that at that point in time wasn't a threat anyway.

Absolutely ridiculous. I think you're just throwing words around, but have no understanding of their meaning in this context. Why is a vector useless to NORAD? Are you saying a fighter plane is not capable of flying a 240 heading?

Our friend Cheap Shot first called at about 8:30 and reported AAL11 20 miles south of Albany heading south at a high rate of speed. Then he called at 8:40 and reported the plane 35 north of JFK. Why not just launch the fighters in the general direction of NYC, then get better position reports from Center while in the air? Why does anyone need a lat/long? Are you seriously suggesting NEADS does not know where Albany and JFK airport are?

This is just common sense, guys. You're making it harder than it is.

 

[Reheat]

---more nonsense---

Translation = "Polly want a cracker"

 

[Cheap Shot]

This whole line of reasoning is a total joke. Do you really believe the authorities at NORAD said to themselves, "there's a hijacked airplane out there heading for NYC, but no biggie. We can just hem and haw for 5-10 minutes, because the plane will probably just land at JFK or LGA or somewhere like that...."

How preposterous. NORAD prides itself on extremely fast response times to all types of emergencies.

No we actually don't think you'll beleive anything, except what DRG prints, but what we would like you to accept is that they don't depart without a "Z" Point, and that there only requirement on 9-11 was to escort, hijacked aircraft per FAAO 7610.4J Chapter 7. They don't waste fuel. Remember this was the biggest lead time they recieved all day on any of the hijacked planes. Since the first aircraft was not considered a hostile threat, I am sure they required a "Z" point, once things began happening after AAL11 I am pretty sure some of that SOP was thrown out the window.

Show me the "Stand Down".

 

[PhantomWolf]

I have no clue to what you mean by "where it physically was with regard to the ground

It means exactly what it says. It mean that position of a plane above a specific patch of dirt was unknowable.

but seeing it on radar is all anybody needs to know where a craft is and therefore how to find it.

And how do you fix that to what is on the ground below it? Radar screens don't have maps on them.

NEADS may have wanted a Lat/Long, instead of a radial distance from a fix, and Boston may have been slow to get it-- but so what? NEADS did not need to see the aircraft on their radar just to get the fighters up in the air!

And do what with them? Fly them in circles about the airport wasting fuel till you found out where to go?

Why is a vector useless to NORAD? Are you saying a fighter plane is not capable of flying a 240 heading?

A 240 heading from what? A 240 heading on the FAA radar is different to a 240 heading from Otis. Vector heading are worthless without a common reference, something Cheap Shot has repeatedly pointed out was absent and had been for the last 8 years!

Our friend Cheap Shot first called at about 8:30 and reported AAL11 20 miles south of Albany heading south at a high rate of speed. Then he called at 8:40 and reported the plane 35 north of JFK. Why not just launch the fighters in the general direction of NYC, then get better position reports from Center while in the air? Why does anyone need a lat/long? Are you seriously suggesting NEADS does not know where Albany and JFK airport are?

He's also noted that NORAD wanted an exact target. Saying the plane is 20 miles south of Albany is not that helpful when its in a cluster of other planes. I suspect that requirement for an exact position is so that NORAD can locate the plane, then direct the fighters too it. Sending them to JFK or Albany without being able to locate the plane and give changes as required results in wasted fuel and likely trouble finding the plane.

here's a simple question for you. If it is so easy to have located and sent interceptors to go after Flight 11, why did NORAD have a standing time window for intercept launchs of 15 minutes? If they can get them up in at the speed you claim, why don't they have one of 5 mins?

edit: Oh, and again, what would the planes have done even if they HAD intercepted it?

 

[A-Train]

The other centers didn't call the military in time, if they did, it would have been recorded.

Are you sure about that, Cheap Shot? That Indy Center didn't call the military in time? Do you really believe the official account of almost incomprehensible incompetence at Indy Center?

According to the Commission’s tapes-based account, the FAA controller in Indianapolis, after seeing Flight 77 go off course at 8:54, lost its transponder signal and even its radar track. However, not knowing about the other hijackings (even though AA 11 had hit the WTC eight minutes earlier), the Indianapolis Center assumed that AA 77 “had experienced serious electrical or mechanical failure,” after which it had crashed.

Later, after hearing about the other hijackings and coming to suspect that AA 77 may have also been hijacked, Indianapolis shared this suspicion with Herndon, which at 9:25 shared it with FAA headquarters. But no one called the military, so “NEADS never received notice that American 77 was hijacked.” NEADS finally did hear about this flight at 9:34, but even then it learned only that this flight was lost, not that it had been hijacked, and it learned this only by chance, during a NEADS-initiated conversation with the FAA’s Washington Center about AA 11.
This story strains credulity and then some. Can anyone really believe that the officials at Indianapolis could have been so utterly stupid and that those at Herndon and FAA headquarters, after knowing that two hijacked airplanes had already crashed into the WTC, would not have told the military that AA 77 might also have been hijacked? Debunking 9/11 Debunking

You don't really believe that your colleagues at Indy Center were that stupid, do you Cheap? In fact, why don't you contact whoever was the military liaison at Indy on 9/11, and invite him to chat with us here at JREF. We hear so much from you, but what's his story? After all, the saga of AAL77 flying for 40 minutes to crash into the Pentagon is what really shows there must have been a stand-down.

And what about the controller working AAL77 at Indy? You know, the one who, after seeing the plane deviate off course and go NORDO at 8:46, then disappear from radar at 8:56, nonetheless supposedly never even considered a hijack and instead supposedly thought it crashed? We hear about Zalewski, but what about this guy? What's his story?

 

[Cheap Shot]

Are you sure about that, Cheap Shot? That Indy Center didn't call the military in time? Do you really believe the official account of almost incomprehensible incompetence at Indy Center?

You don't really believe that your colleagues at Indy Center were that stupid, do you Cheap? After all, the saga of AAL77 flying for 40 minutes to crash into the Pentagon is what really shows there must have been a stand-down.

And what about the controller working AAL77 at Indy? You know, the one who, after seeing the plane deviate off course and go NORDO at 8:46, then disappear from radar at 8:56, nonetheless supposedly never even considered a hijack and instead supposedly thought it crashed? We hear about Zalewski, but what about this guy? What's his story?

Why would Indy call the miltiary there was no requirement for them to call the military.

When I first heard about the 40 minutes I felt that way as well, but I never realized that they didn't have primary at the sector. As far as the controller there at the sector, I am sure he did his job. I'm pretty sure he notifed his supervisor.

Now I am sure you will question me how I know this, but I can't see a controller sitting there at position and having an Air Carrier crash and ho humming about it until he got his break 30 minutes later, and telling his Sup, oh by the way I had a plane crash about 30 minutes ago.

I would give the credit to the supervisor, as much credit that he probably told his OMIC, about it.

Of course I would also give some credit to the OMIC, in that he either told his ROC (Regional Operation Center different than ours), ATCSCC (Air Traffic Control System Command Center).

After that I can't guess anymore, but none of these are wrong choices and actually follow protocol. None of them involve calling the miltiary. Where is the miltiary Stand Down.

 

[PhantomWolf]

after knowing that two hijacked airplanes

Later, after hearing about the other hijackings

Indy Control didn't know about the other planes! When they found out, they reconsidered their initial ideas on the incident. BTW, do you get any of your information from anywhere other then DGR, or are you so inamoured with him that you can't think for yourself and use other sources?

And what about the controller working AAL77 at Indy? You know, the one who, after seeing the plane deviate off course and go NORDO at 8:46, then disappear from radar at 8:56, nonetheless supposedly never even considered a hijack and instead supposedly thought it crashed?

And why shouldn't he have consideredit to have crashed? The plane suddenly deviates from it's course, vanishes from Radar and fails to respond. Oh yeah, a hijacking is the first thing I'd consider, NOT! If a plane vanishes from Radar it usually because it's dropped below it, since Flight 77 was in a no primary radar area, it was transponder only, so it's transponder stopped working.

Possible causes:

1) Transponder has failed.
2) Transponder's power has failed.
3) Transponder has been destroyed.
4) Transponder has been turned off.

In case 1 it's unlike that the plane would have deviated first. In case 2 it's possible that the plane would have deviated if power failed because the auto pilot might have failed also. The plane failing to respond is also an issue here, the radio may have been lost in a total power failure, but losing all three would mean a serious emergency so it's likely to assume that the plane was in trouble. The only way three can occur is a crash. 4 is the most unlikely because pilots don't turn off their transponders.

Given 2 or 3 being the most likely senario, they operated on the likelihood of a crash. Simple logic.

Once word got through that 11 and 175 had been hijacked and switched off/over their transponders, Indy rethought their crash senario and started hunting for 77.

Why is this so impossible? Or do you assume that everyone in the flight control and NORAD were omniscience on 9/11? Do you assume that the instant one person knew something that everyone should have, that there is no ability to have communications break downs and information not passed on immediately because people have too many other things to do?

If so you live in a fantasy land.

 

[Par]

Are you sure about that, Cheap Shot? That Indy Center didn't call the military in time? Do you really believe the official account of almost incomprehensible incompetence at Indy Center?

You don't really believe that your colleagues at Indy Center were that stupid, do you Cheap? In fact, why don't you contact whoever was the military liaison at Indy on 9/11, and invite him to chat with us here at JREF. We hear so much from you, but what's his story? After all, the saga of AAL77 flying for 40 minutes to crash into the Pentagon is what really shows there must have been a stand-down.

And what about the controller working AAL77 at Indy? You know, the one who, after seeing the plane deviate off course and go NORDO at 8:46, then disappear from radar at 8:56, nonetheless supposedly never even considered a hijack and instead supposedly thought it crashed? We hear about Zalewski, but what about this guy? What's his story?

One doesn’t even need to discuss the specifics to see that this argument is specious. You’re giving us two options:

• Indianapolis tower etc. were incompetent.
  
• Conspirators with foreknowledge of the attacks and a vested interest in having them succeed managed to infiltrate the relevant military bodies to the point where they would successfully delay potential intercepts of the hijacked planes by fighters.

The second of these is far less parsimonious and far less rational.

 

[Reheat]

Why would Indy call the miltiary there was no requirement for them to call the military.

Because DRG says that anytime an aircraft belches the FAA notifies NORAD and they send fighters to see why the aircraft belched! A-Train is his parrot speaking, you know. "Squawk, Squawk, Polly wants a cracker."

 

[PhantomWolf]

Because DRG says that anytime an aircraft belches the FAA notifies NORAD and they send fighters to see why the aircraft belched! A-Train is his parrot speaking, you know. "Squawk, Squawk, Polly wants a cracker."

I guess that's why it took the FAA an hour and 18 mins to send one after Payne Stewart's plane and even longer to inform NORAD and get fighter's scrambkled to intercept it.

I bet he thinks that pre-9/11 that every time a plane flew over the White House of Pentagon, it has surface to air missiles tracking it and jets scrambled to force it down, too.

 

[Spins]

The other day a guy woke up in a hotel room bathtub with his body submerged to the neck in ice. A note was taped to the wall instructing him not to move and to call 911. A phone is on a small table next to the bathtub for him to use. The guy is instructed by the 911 operator to feel if there is a tube protruding from his lower back, he reply's "Yes". At this point the 911 operator knows that both of his kidneys have been harvested.

How do I know this is true, because David Ray Griffin told me!

 

[A-Train]

here's a simple question for you. If it is so easy to have located and sent interceptors to go after Flight 11, why did NORAD have a standing time window for intercept launchs of 15 minutes? If they can get them up in at the speed you claim, why don't they have one of 5 mins?

Where is your source for a standing window for intercept of 15 minutes? I don't believe it.

In a story about alert pilots at Homestead Air Reserve Base in Florida, for example, we read: “Within minutes, the crew chiefs can launch the pilots. . . . ‘If needed, we could be killing things in five minutes or less,’ said Capt. Tom ‘Pickle’ Herring.” With regard to Otis Air National Guard Base in particular, a story in the Cape Cod Times, four days after 9/11, said: “two pilots are on alert 24 hours a day, and if needed, must be in the air within five minutes.”
Five minutes is, in fact, rather slow. A NORAD press release in 2000 explained that a command-and-control breakdown “resulted in alert fighters on 5 minute airborne response time instead of 2-3 minute response time.” That 2-to-3 minute time to become airborne is consistent, moreover, with the statement on a US Air Force website prior to 9/11, according to which F-15s routinely go from scramble order to 29,000 feet in 2.5 minutes. Debunking 9/11 Debunking

edit: Oh, and again, what would the planes have done even if they HAD intercepted it?

Shoot it down. Common sense here again. If the pilot clearly saw the plane about to be used as a missile against a building, he could have and would have shot it down. He could have gotten that authority while en route to the intercept, or, lacking that, he had the authority to make the decision himself.

Bronner and the 9/11 Commission, to be sure, claim that no shootdown could have occurred because that order could only have come from the president, who was occupied in a classroom in Florida. As I have shown elsewhere, however, authorization from the president is not needed. Even approval from the office of the secretary of defenses is not necessary. As the Pentagon document says: “The DoD Components that receive verbal requests from civil authorities for support in an exigent emergency may . . . , if required, immediately respond.
Hordon says, moreover, that this stipulation extends to the pilots. Having made the distinction between emergency and hijack protocol, he says:

However, make no mistake about this, should the "hijacked aircraft" appear to threaten major populations, or seem to be headed for important military or civilian targets, then the pilots can shoot them down on their own. Shootdown orders are authorized for the pilots to use under certain conditions, some of them pre-approved by higher ups, and some of them at a moment's notice. . . . If an Otis fighter . . . pilot saw the Boeing descend and head straight for NYC, he would already be considering shooting the aircraft down miles and miles away from NYC. And this is regardless of it being an airliner full of passengers. If the pilot came to the conclusion that AA 11 was going to crash into NYC, or its nuclear plant, I will guarantee that AA11 would have been shot down prior to hitting any buildings.

If this was true of AA 11, it would have been all the more true of UA 175, after a building had already been struck. The South Tower clearly could have been saved. Debunking 9/11 Debunking

Besides, whether or not the fighters would have been able to shoot down the planes, the issue we are discussing is the possibity that they were intentionally delayed on the ground so the attacks could succeed. If that is the case, that is a very grave matter and should be extremely disturbing to any American patriot.

If the network that did 9/11 can penetrate the air defense system so thoroughly as to have a mole in position to delay a scramble, we are all in big trouble. Today in Iraq thousands of our soldiers are dying because the enemy seems to have very sophisticated explosive devices, and also seems to have insider knowledge of our movements. Who is providing this to the enemy? It's not the Iranians. It's not the Russkies. Is it the same network that carried out 9/11?

 

[Reheat]

I bet he thinks that pre-9/11 that every time a plane flew over the White House of Pentagon, it has surface to air missiles tracking it and jets scrambled to force it down, too.

Yes, and space based energy weapons protect the ranch at Crawford!

Here's what DRG said:

Standard operating procedures dictate that if an FAA flight controller notices anything that suggests a possible hijacking--if radio contact is lost, if the plane's transponder goes off, or if the plane deviates from its flight plan--the controller is to contact a superior. If the problem cannot be fixed quickly--within about a minute--the superior is to ask NORAD--the North American Aerospace Defense Command--to scramble jet fighters to find out what is going on. NORAD then issues a scramble order to the nearest Air Force base with fighters on alert. On 9/11, all the hijacked airliners occurred in NORAD's Northeast Air Defense Sector, which is known as NEADS. So all the scramble orders would have come from NEADS.

I'll try to find the number of intercepts (Domestic intercepts implied) conducted in 2001 ACCORDING TO DRG.

 

[A-Train]

I bet he thinks that pre-9/11 that every time a plane flew over the White House of Pentagon, it has surface to air missiles tracking it and jets scrambled to force it down, too.

You're right. I do think that. If you fly over airspace like the White House, you will very quickly find yourself escorted by a fighter.

 

[Reheat]

You're right. I do think that. If you fly over airspace like the White House, you will very quickly find yourself escorted by a fighter.

Pre-9/11 Bull Chit!

 

[A-Train]

Why would Indy call the miltiary there was no requirement for them to call the military.

You may have talked yourself into believing that they had no requirement to call the military, but common sense says they would have done so immediately. If your military desk counterpart from Indy were here, and if he had the courage to be honest, he would say that they did call the military right away. There is indeed good evidence that they did just that:

The Commission’s new story is challenged, finally, by evidence that the FAA had talked to the military about AA 77 even earlier than 9:24, which was the notification time given on NORAD’s September 18 timeline. FAA official Laura Brown’s aforementioned memo, after stating that a teleconference was established with the military “within minutes after the first aircraft hit the World Trade Center” (and hence by about 8:50), said that the FAA shared “real-time information” with the military about “all the flights of interest, including Flight 77.” Bringing out the full implication of this assertion, she added:

NORAD logs indicate that the FAA made formal notification about American Flight 77 at 9:24 a.m., but information about the flight was conveyed continuously during the phone bridges before the formal notification. NORAD logs indicate that the FAA made formal notification about American Flight 77 at 9:24 a.m., but information about the flight was conveyed continuously during the phone bridges before the formal notification.

In a telephone conversation I had with Laura Brown in 2004, she emphasized this distinction, saying that the formal notification was primarily a formality and hence irrelevant to the question of when the military knew about Flight 77.
Brown’s main point, in other words, was that the FAA and the military had been talking about AA 77 long before 9:24. The implication of her memo, therefore, is that although, as Bronner and the 9/11 Commission say, the 9:24 notification time was false, it was false by being too late, not too early

I hope you're not going to say that Laura Brown is just a stupid theologian.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Shoot it down. Common sense here again. If the pilot clearly saw the plane about to be used as a missile against a building, he could have and would have shot it down.

So you're claiming that the pilot would have shot down the plane, without permission from the POUS, scattering the burning wreakage all over downtown Manhatten resulting it mass carnage, rather then having it hit a single building? Assuming he worked out what it was up too fast enough to line up the shot, fire and hit it before it hit the building, or was close enough to hit the building despite being hit. Is that about right?

He could have gotten that authority while en route to the intercept, or, lacking that, he had the authority to make the decision himself.

How could he have gotten permission on route when it wasn't known about? Are you saying the the POUS would authorise the shooting down of an American Airliner just because it was hijacked?

Besides, whether or not the fighters would have been able to shoot down the planes, the issue we are discussing is the possibity that they were intentionally delayed on the ground so the attacks could succeed. If that is the case, that is a very grave matter and should be extremely disturbing to any American patriot.

Why would they have to hold them on the ground? Orders to shoot them down had to come from the POUS, by the time that the fighter pilot realised that the plane was going to hit a building, it'd have been too late to get authorization even if the fighter was right behind him with a weapons lock on.

Today in Iraq thousands of our soldiers are dying because the enemy seems to have very sophisticated explosive devices, and also seems to have insider knowledge of our movements. Who is providing this to the enemy? It's not the Iranians.

That's interesting, why are they finding IEDs that contain important components that are of Iranian manufacture?

http://abcnews.go.com/International/IraqCoverage/story?id=1692347
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16795765/site/newsweek/
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2007-01-30-ied-iran_x.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4779437.stm

 

[Reheat]

Where is your source for a standing window for intercept of 15 minutes? I don't believe it.

The source is ME. I'll address the crap from Hordon at the same time. During the Cold War the response time was indeed 5 minutes. It was later lengthened to 10 minutes. A 15 minute response time was in effect 9/11/2001.

Shoot it down. Common sense here again. If the pilot clearly saw the plane about to be used as a missile against a building, he could have and would have shot it down. He could have gotten that authority while en route to the intercept, or, lacking that, he had the authority to make the decision himself.

This is so preposterous that it really doesn't deserve a rational response. Did you not read about The Posse Comitatus Act? No pilot in the USAF would have shot down either AA11 or AA175 because they would not have known this was an attack against the US at that time. Even today a fighter pilot DOES NOT have the authority to shoot down a civilian airliner even if he knows it's hostile.

If that is the case, that is a very grave matter and should be extremely disturbing to any American patriot.

Let me tell you what is utterly disgusting to this American Patriot and combat veteran of TWO WARS. Your insane rantings, sheer stupidity, and intentional ignorance are contemptible.

 

[PhantomWolf]

You're right. I do think that. If you fly over airspace like the White House, you will very quickly find yourself escorted by a fighter.

Hah! Pre-9/11 you'd have got a slap on the wrist and a ticket when you landed for doing that. I guess that Frank Eugene Corder didn't manage to fly his cessena into the lawn of the White House in 1994, after all the missiles should have shot him down, of the Jet should have scrambled and chased him away in the seven minutes that he was seen on Radar in restricted airspace, in fact no one even noticed him.

By the way, this is a great article has something that makes me wonder if it is the genesis of the Missiles at the White House myth.

Yet the threat from the air has been a secret worry for some time. The CIA often war-gamed terrorist attacks on the 18-acre White House complex and concluded each time that little could be done, short of installing unsightly Gatling guns on the roof. During the Gulf War, uniformed air-defense teams could be seen patrolling the top floor with automatic rifles or shoulder-mounted ground-to-air missiles. In theory the air-defense teams could take out a threatening plane if it could be spotted, identified and targeted in time. In practice, the notion of firing heavy weapons in an urban area is probably unwise, particularly when one can stand on the South Lawn and watch plane after plane taking off and landing at nearby National Airport. Heat- seeking missiles have been known to find targets other than those intended for destruction.

Even now they don't have missiles, but you will be shooed away and forced down.

 

[njslim]

No breakdown at FAA HQ, the first call form the hijack cooridnators office I beleive was at 10:10 several minutes after UAL93 impacted the ground. In that conversation they were aking if they think the military ought to launch some fighters. By that time NEADS had contacted about 6 military bases, had fighters up from Langley, Otis, Selfridge, DC, and Toldeo. (opinion ommitted ref FAA HQ), How is this a breakdown between fighters and NEADS

I'm originally from upstate NY, meet officer (Lt Col) from NEADS through dive
buddy of mine. Heard lot of background stuff about 9/11 - when excrement
started to hit the fan NEADS (which is located in Rome NY at Griffiss
airbase) contacted some of the officers of the 174th Fighter Wing (FW)
at Hancock Field (Syracause NY airport) who in turn contacted other
members of unit. Prepped and launched several F16 fighters based there
to fly combat patrols and track suspected hijacked aircraft. On 9/11 was
lot of improvision by people trying to make sense of unexpected chaotic
situation.
the u