NORAD Tapes

[Reheat]

I understand the distinction quite well. What you don't understand is that fighters pursuing a suspect craft will always have total priority over any number of civilian aircraft. No controller will ever refuse airspace to a fighter in that situation. The usual requirement for 5 miles and a thousand feet will be thrown out the window, and controller will settle for "green between," meaning separation of about a mile or so. A controller would not be punished for a separation error in such an emergency situation; but if he refused clearance to scrambling fighter, he'd be in very deep doo-doo.

This is YOUR gobbledegook and amply illustrates that you are not accepting the REALITY that NO ONE KNEW AA11 or UA175 were HOSTILE AIRCRAFT.

Once you get that FACT through your thick "troofer" skull everything else will fall into place.

In fact, AA11 had already crashed (the FAA didn't know that yet) and UA175 crashed while the fighters were enroute. Can't you ever get anything right even by your own timeline?

As I said above, it is unthinkable that the FAA would refuse entry to scrambling fighter in pursuit of a suspect craft.

What you're confusing in your deluded "troofer" mind is the difference between a suspect aircraft and a HOSTILE aircraft. The chase of a suspect aircraft WOULD NOT take priority in a crowded sky.

Nonsense. No push and shove. If the fighters want airspace, they get whatever they want immediately. They have total priority if they want it. It's a big sky out there, and fighter pilots are skilled enough to easily evade any number of slow moving airliners.

More troofer delusion.

 

[Reheat]

The crux of my question is who was talking to the fighters when they were out over the Atlantic........ It is clear that at that moment, a Navy controller was talking to them, but NEADS wasn't.[/SIZE] The "I'm gonna choke that guy" conversation with Huckabone demonstrates that:

[/SIZE]The Navy controller clearly is talking to the fighters, but he believes it is NEADS who have sent them out east. NEADS is not talking to the fighters, that's why Huckabone gives them the freq to contact them.

You answered your own question. How 'bout you forget about DRG and think for yourself for once. Take a look at Google Earth and see where approximately 30 miles EAST of Langley is. That's about where the Fighters were.

If Huckabone knew about AA77 WHY DID HE ASK GIANT KILLER TO SEND THE FIGHTERS TO BALTIMORE?

My understanding is that fighters are always talking on two channels: one to talk to the controller-- civilian or military-- who controls the airspace they're in; and the other to talk to their military commanders. Why weren't the Langley pilots talking to NEADS from the get go?

The other radio was tuned to NWO Headquarters. Only after they received their instruction from their NWO superiors would they then contact NEADS in order to proceed with the cover-up.

 

[Spins]

As I said above, it is unthinkable that the FAA would refuse entry to scrambling fighter in pursuit of a suspect craft. What probably happened is that after the second crash, there were no more hijacked planes near NYC. The fighters probably requested to "cap" the NYC area, to orbit and patrol the airspace. The FAA refused due to traffic. This is a whole different ball of wax than fighters pursuing a suspect craft.

Where is your source stating that the FAA refused the fighters access to the New York airspace due to traffic?

The Otis fighters lacked a target when they were launched so they were vectored toward military-controlled airspace off the Long Island coast. They did this, yes, to avoid New York area traffic but also because they were uncertain about what to do next, remember they had no target. The fighters then stayed in this "hold as needed" posture from 9:09 to 9:13.

There is a single communication from the weapons director or his technician on the Guard frequency at approximately 9:11, cautioning the Otis fighters: "remain at current position [holding pattern] until FAA requests assistance."

Also at this point NEADS were simultaneously working with a tanker to relocate close to the Otis fighters. This also goes to show how much effort NEADS were putting in to keep these fighters in the air during this period just in case the FAA made a request for assistance because of another confirmed hijacking.

At 9:10, the senior director on the NEADS floor told the weapons director, "I want those fighters closer in." then at 9:10:22, the Otis fighters were told by Boston Center that the second tower had been struck. At 9:12:54, the Otis fighters told their Boston Center controller that they needed to establish a combat air patrol over New York, and they immediately headed for New York City.

Here is the source I'm using from the 9/11 Commission report with information about the relevant audio files used...

FAA audio file, Boston Center, position 31R; NEADS audio file, Mission Crew Commander position, channel 2, 8:58:00; NEADS audio file, Mission Crew Commander position, channel 2, 8:54:55. Because of a technical issue, there are no NEADS recordings available of the NEADS senior weapons director and weapons director technician position responsible for controlling the Otis scramble. We found a single communication from the weapons director or his technician on the Guard frequency at approximately 9:11, cautioning the Otis fighters: "remain at current position [holding pattern] until FAA requests assistance." See NEADS audio file, channel 24. That corresponds to the time after the Otis fighters entered the holding pattern and before they headed for New York. NEADS controllers were simultaneously working with a tanker to relocate close to the Otis fighters. At 9:10, the senior director on the NEADS floor told the weapons director, "I want those fighters closer in." NEADS audio file, Identification Technician position, channel 5. At 9:10:22, the Otis fighters were told by Boston Center that the second tower had been struck. At 9:12:54, the Otis fighters told their Boston Center controller that they needed to establish a combat air patrol over New York, and they immediately headed for New York City. See FAA audio files, Boston Center, position 31R. This series of communications explains why the Otis fighters briefly entered and then soon departed the holding pattern, as the radar reconstruction of their flight shows. DOD radar files, 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron, "9/11 Autoplay," undated.

 

[A-Train]

Where is your source stating that the FAA refused the fighters access to the New York airspace due to traffic?

My source is gumboot, who apparently got it from Michael Bronner's Vanity Fair piece:

With both towers now in flames, Nasypany wants the fighters over Manhattan immediately, but the weapons techs get "pushback" from civilian F.A.A. controllers, who have final authority over the fighters as long as they are in civilian airspace. The F.A.A. controllers are afraid of fast-moving fighters colliding with a passenger plane, of which there are hundreds in the area, still flying normal routes—the morning's unprecedented order to ground all civilian aircraft has not yet been given.

I personally don't believe FAA controllers would have refused fighters anything in this situation. I'd like to hear the recordings of them supposedly doing so to the Otis fighters. Anyone know if this is on the NORAD tapes?

 

[Spins]

Nonsense. No push and shove. If the fighters want airspace, they get whatever they want immediately. They have total priority if they want it. It's a big sky out there, and fighter pilots are skilled enough to easily evade any number of slow moving airliners.

As I pointed out above the Otis fighters had no target, in fact they were only in this "hold as needed" posture off the Long Island coast for 4 minutes (probably less time than it'll take you to source and write your next post ) and as you know they were only airborne at 8:52.

We are talking minutes here, the fighters didn't just beam to these places, in the real world it takes time and as has been pointed out to you before the mistake you guys (Griffin et al) keep making when calculating how long something should take is that you think they were flying everywhere at Mach 2+. They needed to conserve fuel because they had no idea how long they'd be in the air, and this is evident in that NEADS where working on getting a tanker close to the Otis fighters not long after they were airborne.

Less than two minutes after they had been told by Boston center that a second plane had hit the WTC and the realization began to sink in about what was happening and the magnitude of the attack they were ordered to establish combat air patrol over New York.

Remember hindsight is a wonderful thing and there was a lot of confusion in these initial stages about what was happening.

 

[Spins]

My source is gumboot, who apparently got it from Michael Bronner's Vanity Fair piece:

I personally don't believe FAA controllers would have refused fighters anything in this situation. I'd like to hear the recordings of them supposedly doing so to the Otis fighters. Anyone know if this is on the NORAD tapes?

I would too that's why I posted the quote from the 9/11 Commission report, they mention the audio files used. Hopefully Gumboot (or someone else) can locate these.

 

[Spins]

My source is gumboot, who apparently got it from Michael Bronner's Vanity Fair piece:

He may very well be correct, to be honest I'd always defer to Gumboot on this subject because he has done much more research on it than I have. I suppose I've already laid out to the best of my ability what I feel happened based on the information I have. If he has more insight then I'm sure he'll post it.

 

[Reheat]

A-Train, While you're sorting out your confusion about the NY situation answer this question.

If Huckabone knew about AA77 WHY DID HE ASK GIANT KILLER TO SEND THE LANGLEY FIGHTERS TO BALTIMORE?

 

[Spins]

Also as has been mentioned before, and for anyone reading this thread that is new to the subject, in these early minutes (the period before and immediately after the Twin Towers were hit) there was no shoot down authorization in effect.

Then there is the obvious problem of trying to shoot down a large civilian airplane over a heavily populated area such as New York.

 

[Corsair 115]

It's a big sky out there...

Which is why there have never been any mid-air collisions in aviation history. Oh, wait, there have...

...and fighter pilots are skilled enough to easily evade any number of slow moving airliners.

Jetliners cruise at between 500-600 MPH. The typical combat speed of a jet fighter is between 500-600 MPH.

 

[Reheat]

Also as has been mentioned before, and for anyone reading this thread that is new to the subject, in these early minutes (the period before and immediately after the Twin Towers were hit) there was no shoot down authorization in effect.

Then there is the obvious problem of trying to shoot down a large civilian airplane over a heavily populated area such as New York.

Spins, the very reason there was no shoot down authorization is that it was not evident to anyone that the US was under a hostile attack, AT LEAST, until after UA175 hit the WTC. There was confusion at FAA on exactly who or what had hit WTC 1. There were report of a small civilian aircraft and then a 737. There were calls to Newark Control Tower to try and establish who/what had hit the WTC.

Once NEADS knew WTC 2 was hit (which was sometime after 9:03) they were attempting to coordinate Tanker support for the Otis Fighters in establishing a Fighter CAP over NYC to prevent further attacks.

Now, on to the Langley Fighters.....

 

[Reheat]

The typical combat speed of a jet fighter is between 500-600 MPH.

Exactly. Very good point.

Again, as Spins said, IGNORANT troofers think they cruise around at Mach 2 + looking for their prey. They don't do that at all. They can go from their optimum Combat Speed to VERY fast VERY quickly or they can conduct OPTIMUM maneuvering whichever is required for the task at hand.

 

[Spins]

Spins, the very reason there was no shoot down authorization is that it was not evident to anyone that the US was under a hostile attack, AT LEAST, until after UA175 hit the WTC. There was confusion at FAA on exactly who or what had hit WTC 1. There were report of a small civilian aircraft and then a 737. There were calls to Newark Control Tower to try and establish who/what had hit the WTC.

Once NEADS knew WTC 2 was hit (which was sometime after 9:03) they were attempting to coordinate Tanker support for the Otis Fighters in establishing a Fighter CAP over NYC to prevent further attacks.

Now, on to the Langley Fighters.....

Yes I know, I raised this issue along with the problem of trying to shoot down a large civilian airplane over a heavily populated area because they are two very important points to think about before you can even begin to contemplate a NORAD "stand down", which I might add as far as I can see never happened but that's only my opinion.

I pretty much laid out what happened with regards to Flight 11 and 175 in this post and this post over on the other recent NORAD thread here, which I might add was a very informative thread for me with regards to the posts made by yourself and others like Cheap Shot and Darth Rotor etc.

But specifically with regards to what you posted, yes you are correct and I must say your continued contribution here at the JREF is much appreciated.

 

[Firestone]

Is there any chance that these tapes will clarify the matter of the plane believed to be at 40 miles, 30 miles, ... from Washington (the one Mineta believed to be flight 77, and the CR believed to be the projected path of flight 93)?

 

[Spins]

One can only hope, I'm sure Gumboot is on the case.

 

[A-Train]

As I pointed out above the Otis fighters had no target, in fact they were only in this "hold as needed" posture off the Long Island coast for 4 minutes .... and as you know they were only airborne at 8:52.

That they "had no target" is disputed. Our buddy Cheap Shot called NEADS at about 8:30 and reported AAL11 20 South of Albany. At 8:40, he reported it 35 North of JFK and heading for JFK. These are not exactly "targets," but they are position reports giving the fighters a good idea of where to head. And of course, the FAA had the real primary target of this plane until the very end.

We are talking minutes here, the fighters didn't just beam to these places, in the real world it takes time and as has been pointed out to you before the mistake you guys (Griffin et al) keep making when calculating how long something should take is that you think they were flying everywhere at Mach 2+.

Except that the time frame we are questioning is from about 8:20, when Boston controllers knew for certain AAL11 was hijacked, until 8:45 when they finally scrambled. So the speed of the aircraft is irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[Reheat]

Yes I know, I raised this issue along with the problem of trying to shoot down a large civilian airplane over a heavily populated area because they are two very important points to think about before you can even begin to contemplate a NORAD "stand down", which I might add as far as I can see never happened but that's only my opinion.

It had never been seriously discussed prior to 9/11 whether to sacrifice those in the air versus those on the ground. That has now been resolved as well as it can be. There was no "stand down" and that is no only my opinion, but it is support by FACTS.

I pretty much laid out what happened with regards to Flight 11 and 175 in this post and this post over on the other recent NORAD thread here, which I might add was a very informative thread for me with regards to the posts made by yourself and others like Cheap Shot and Darth Rotor etc.

Thanks. It is obvious that our ignorant troofer either doesn't read or completely ignores other threads.

But specifically with regards to what you posted, yes you are correct and I must say your continued contribution here at the JREF is much appreciated.

Yes, we are all interested in the same objective. Thanks to you for continuing to post common sense supported by factual information. It is in the best interest of everyone that we posts factual information and correct one another if we don't. I have no problem with that and I'm sure the others don't either.

 

[A-Train]

A-Train, While you're sorting out your confusion about the NY situation answer this question.

If Huckabone knew about AA77 WHY DID HE ASK GIANT KILLER TO SEND THE LANGLEY FIGHTERS TO BALTIMORE?

I have no clue how you came up with that. I never said Huckabone knew anything about AAL77. This is what I wrote.

The Navy controller clearly is talking to the fighters, but he believes it is NEADS who have sent them out east. NEADS is not talking to the fighters, that's why Huckabone gives them the freq to contact them.

My understanding is that fighters are always talking on two channels: one to talk to the controller-- civilian or military-- who controls the airspace they're in; and the other to talk to their military commanders. Why weren't the Langley pilots talking to NEADS from the get go?

This is not a hostile question. I just want to know if there is a capability for NEADS to talk to the fighters while they are on the ground.

You really aren't qualified to even be participating in this debate, Reheat. I'd like to ask you to leave.

 

[Reheat]

Is there any chance that these tapes will clarify the matter of the plane believed to be at 40 miles, 30 miles, ... from Washington (the one Mineta believed to be flight 77, and the CR believed to be the projected path of flight 93)?

Mineta ASSUMED the reference point was Washington and he ASSUMED it was AA77. It's doubtful if the NORAD tapes will enable a determination one way or another.

 

[Par]

You really aren't qualified to even be participating in this debate, Reheat. I'd like to ask you to leave.

Does this mean you’re going to toss Griffin’s book in the garbage?