NORAD Tapes

[gumboot]

For anyone that is interested, I think I also cracked the mystery of the Langley fighters being sent east instead of north as well.

Firstly, when Langley were put on Battle Stations, they were calling into NEADS to ask for the specific wording of why they were putting on Battle Stations. Major Nasypany's response was "Are you watching the TV? That's why."

When the Langley Sergeant pushed with it, they said "National Defense". This is the first step in the wayward fighters. They didn't know they were being scrambled for an airliner escort - and indeed they weren't. It was an Active Air Defense Mission for National Security. Now in any other case, a scramble for that is East. So Langley weren't sure where they were going.

But here's where the SNAFU occurs.

The focus for NEADS between 0900 and 0930 was very much getting tanker aircraft into position to support fighters. There were at least four tankers involved by the time Langley was scrambled - TEAM 2-2 and TEAM 2-3 launched from McGwyer AFB put into W-107 to support Langley, TEAM 2-1 already airborne, also sent to W-107 to support Langley, and MAYDAY 5, also already airborne, sent to W-105 to support Otis.

Now, with three tankers converging on W-105, NEADS decided to send one of them to W-386 instead. They chose TEAM 2-2.

The training areas are controlled by a Navy facility called Fleet Air Control And Surveillance Facility Virginia Capes (FACSFAC VACAPES) call sign "Giant Killer".

But you also had the fighters coming out of Langley with call signs QUIT 2-5 and QUIT 2-6. At the exact time that Langley were taking off, Giant Killer was being told to take TEAM 2-2 down to W-386. Then abruptly at 0932 NEADS notice that QUIT 2-5 are being handed off from Washington Center to Giant Killer, and are being directed to W-386.

Now let's bear in mind, by this stage several ATC sectors are declaring ATC Zero. Already the Otis fighters have been refused entry by New York ARTCC. I'm guessing hand off from Langley's TRACON to Washington ARTCC went wrong, QUIT 2-5 got handed to Giant Killer instead, and Giant Killer mixed the call signs up, sending QUIT 2-5 to W-386. Hearing that NEADS had ordered Giant Killer to take them to W-386, QUIT 2-5 would have immediately reverted to their 60-90 default departure, and because they weren't sure where or why they were being scrambled, they would have gone with Giant Killer's direction.

This explains the total confusion in the Giant Killer ATC's voice when he said "you now want them to go to Baltimore?" Because as far as he's aware he was told by the same person - literally 2 minutes earlier - take them to W-386. Of course he wasn't, he was told to move TEAM 2-2 there, not QUIT 2-5.

One last thing to add, is the key function of delay. What I'm finding repeatedly is that NEADS are actually receiving and deciding stuff much faster than any timelines indicated. But that's because it takes time for things to happen. For example, Nasypany ordered Langley scrambled at 0921, pretty much as soon as word of AA11 still airborne was received. But just giving the orders for each pair of fighters takes a minute. Then Weapons have to issue the Scramble Order with call signs and authentication. That's another minute or two. Then Langley want to confirm scramble destination. That's another 2 minutes. Next thing you know Langley aren't being scrambled until 0924.

What strikes me is the speed with which NEADS moves. Scrambling a fighter, or moving a tanker into position, is not a simple case of saying "you go there". The technical aspects, just from listening to the tapes, are multitude. Call signs need to be confirmed. Beacon codes have to be confirmed. Radio frequencies have to be confirmed. Radios crackle and people are asked to repeat themselves. People request clarification. If you tell person X to do something, you then have to let people A, B and C know that X is doing that.

And so on. It all adds up.

Essentially, hearing what is actually involved in scrambling fighters and intercepting an airliner, I feel sorry for the people in NEADS. They just didn't have a chance.

 

[Reheat]

Gumboot, Excellent information and this fills in some gaps that existed. Very good job.

I have a couple of questions and suggestions for you to consider.

Are you sure about the "Mayday" call sign for the Tankers? Surely, that must be a typo as "Mayday" is an International Distress word.

The comments on the age of the Otis F-15s may be overplayed and unnecessary in emphasizing why they flew at the speed they did. While it may be true (if you've verified it) the weapons and fuel tanks alone would be enough to limit their speed. In the past the ANG has had older "hand me down" aircraft, but not necessarily anymore. They have some newer aircraft, as well. Also, while their budget might be more limited than the Active Force, their actual level of maintenance quality is frequently better. They have more experienced and motivated personnel. If someone does not perform well in the Active Force it is a difficult and lengthy process to get rid of them. In the ANG, however, if they don't perform they are gone. It was my experience in working with several units that ANG maintenance is top notch, a step above the quality of Active Force maintenance.

The spelling the large AF Depot in NJ is McGuire, not McGwyer.

Again, you've provided excellent "fill in the details" information which is now quite thorough. Thanks again....

 

[jaydeehess]

Sorry to butt in with a question that is a bit of a derail. I looked through the thread and the forum as best I could and cannot find an answer.

It is reported that the last radar contact with Flight 11 ( I assume primary radar rather than transponder) had it 8 miles east of JFK. Does anyone know a better location for it? 8 miles east if taken literally would mean it was about 20 miles from the towers, right?

 

[gumboot]

Gumboot, Excellent information and this fills in some gaps that existed. Very good job.

I have a couple of questions and suggestions for you to consider.

Are you sure about the "Mayday" call sign for the Tankers? Surely, that must be a typo as "Mayday" is an International Distress word.[/QUOTE]


Yeah I was thinking the exact same thing. It's seemed like a really odd call sign. But It comes up repeatedly on the tapes and it sounds like "Mayday 5". I'm trying to think of what else it could be that sounds similar, but haven't come up with anything yet.

I was also wondering that it's a word with a single number, while all of the other aircraft were a word with two numbers. My first guess was it's actually MAY X-5, but I can't think of a number that sounds like "day".

The comments on the age of the Otis F-15s may be overplayed and unnecessary in emphasizing why they flew at the speed they did. While it may be true (if you've verified it) the weapons and fuel tanks alone would be enough to limit their speed.

That's very true. I only mentioned the age thing because in an article one of the pilots mentioned something about the aircraft being old airframes. But I'd tend to agree that the load out alone would reduce the speed.

In the past the ANG has had older "hand me down" aircraft, but not necessarily anymore. They have some newer aircraft, as well. Also, while their budget might be more limited than the Active Force, their actual level of maintenance quality is frequently better. They have more experienced and motivated personnel. If someone does not perform well in the Active Force it is a difficult and lengthy process to get rid of them. In the ANG, however, if they don't perform they are gone. It was my experience in working with several units that ANG maintenance is top notch, a step above the quality of Active Force maintenance.

Thanks for that input. That aspect was again just based on a single comment in an article that prior to 9/11 ANG squadrons often ran out of money before the end of the financial year and had to stop flying.

The spelling the large AF Depot in NJ is McGuire, not McGwyer.

Thanks. I was pretty sure I'd spelled that wrong. It was just too late at night to look it up.

Again, you've provided excellent "fill in the details" information which is now quite thorough. Thanks again....

It's surprising, once you get the hang of all the chatter in the recordings, just how much you pick up. For example they were supposedly told about UA175 as it crashed, but I think they were actually told about a minute before that.

Also when they heard word about AA77 they at that time thought they had three hijacks:
-AA11 still airborne
-Unknown into WTC1
-UA175 into WTC2

And as they thought AA77 was the unknown hijack hence why they didn't get overly concerned about locating it - they thought it had crashed into the WTC (probably helped by the fact that they had heard Langley were deploying SAR birds for it).

 

[gumboot]

Sorry to butt in with a question that is a bit of a derail. I looked through the thread and the forum as best I could and cannot find an answer.

It is reported that the last radar contact with Flight 11 ( I assume primary radar rather than transponder) had it 8 miles east of JFK. Does anyone know a better location for it? 8 miles east if taken literally would mean it was about 20 miles from the towers, right?

This is one of the most confusing things on the tapes. Boston ARTCC continually refer to AA11 being EAST of JFK, but it didn't come in east of JFK, it came in NORTH of JFK. On occasion they do say "north".

As I understand it the last primary return on AA11 was about 8 nautical miles North West of JFK at 0842EDT.

However I'm wondering if maybe the direction references are to the JFK beacon rather than the airport itself. That's something maybe Cheap Shot will pop in and answer some time.

I do know that often on the NEADS tapes you hear "east of JFK" which just doesn't make any sense as AA11 was never over there.

8nmi NW of JFK would put the aircraft just south of the southern end of Central Park.

 

[sleahead]

My first guess was it's actually MAY X-5, but I can't think of a number that sounds like "day".

* Some American accent* "eight" more like "aid". Mayaid 5?

 

[gumboot]

* Some American accent* "eight" more like "aid". Mayaid 5?

Actually that might be it... I'll have to review the tapes and see if it fits.

 

[Reheat]

* Some American accent* "eight" more like "aid". Mayaid 5?

I think you mean May 85? Correct?

 

[Reheat]

I was also wondering that it's a word with a single number, while all of the other aircraft were a word with two numbers. My first guess was it's actually MAY X-5, but I can't think of a number that sounds like "day".

Yes, I agree. Those are computer generated call signs and they are always two numbers as far as I know.

Thanks for that input. That aspect was again just based on a single comment in an article that prior to 9/11 ANG squadrons often ran out of money before the end of the financial year and had to stop flying.

I think that would be referring to Operational Funds, not Logistics. Those are separate budget items.

 

[beachnut]

Actually that might be it... I'll have to review the tapes and see if it fits.

Let me listen to the tape, I can mess it up.

Mate 85 - what unit

Get an ATC wizard to say MATE 85 real quick. Mate85 sounds like maydayfife

 

[sleahead]

Correct, Reheat, though I like Beachnut's better than mine, especially if were pronounced
Made 85.

 

[beachnut]

Correct, Reheat, though I like Beachnut's better than mine, especially if were pronounced
Made 85.

Can be funny when you have new copilot and your call sign is Mate85, and when the co hears maydayfife, the co really thinks there is a Mayday5 out there as you have to reply to the copilots missed call! Yes center Mate85 climbing to 250. Co wake up~!

Context helps, but there is not much time wasted saying Mate85; you better know what your name sounds like or suffer the penalty box.

 

[gumboot]

Thanks guys, the mystery is solved! I should have asked Beachnut all along.

So we have the following, for anyone wanting to listen to the tapes:

Panther 4-5 - F-15C Eagle from Otis ANGB flown by Lt Col Timothy Duffy
Panther 4-6 - F-15C Eagle from Otis ANGB flown by Maj Daniel Nash

Mate 8-5 - KC10 Extender on exercise in Warning Area 105

Team 2-1 - KC10 Extender on exercise in Warning Area 107

Team 2-2 - KC10 Extender deployed from McGuire AFB
Team 2-3 - KC10 Extender deployed from McGuire AFB

Quit 2-5 - F-16A Fighting Falcon from Langley AFB flown by Maj. Dean Eckmann
Quit 2-6 - F-16A Fighting Falcon from Langley AFB flown by Capt. Craig Borgstrom
Quit 2-7 - F-16A Fighting Falcon from Langley AFB flown by Maj. Brad Derrig (UNARMED)

 

[beachnut]

Thanks guys, the mystery is solved! I should have asked Beachnut all along.

So we have the following, for anyone wanting to listen to the tapes:

Panther 4-5 - F-15C Eagle from Otis ANGB flown by Lt Col Timothy Duffy
Panther 4-6 - F-15C Eagle from Otis ANGB flown by Maj Daniel Nash

Mate 8-5 - KC10 Extender on exercise in Warning Area 105

Team 2-1 - KC10 Extender on exercise in Warning Area 107

Team 2-2 - KC10 Extender deployed from McGuire AFB
Team 2-3 - KC10 Extender deployed from McGuire AFB

Quit 2-5 - F-16A Fighting Falcon from Langley AFB flown by Maj. Dean Eckmann
Quit 2-6 - F-16A Fighting Falcon from Langley AFB flown by Capt. Craig Borgstrom
Quit 2-7 - F-16A Fighting Falcon from Langley AFB flown by Maj. Brad Derrig (UNARMED)

I was happy with mayday5 but it did sound kind of funny based on the day, and reheat is right. Rare to have a single digit for a tanker. And a computer has generated the names, unless you get a static call sign. But the name is not important. The information is. Reheat is the one who had the key, I was happy to sit and listen. And as it should be, you can correct the minor stuff later.

But did the tape really sound like it was Mate85?

 

[gumboot]

But did the tape really sound like it was Mate85?

Well it sounded to me like "Mayday Five" but the tape quality is not fantastic and there's always lots of cross chatter going on. And of course you know how fast those people talk! Not to mention when the aircraft itself calls in it's even more broken with static.

"Made Aid Five" would probably be the closest to what is heard on the tapes. Softening "t" to a "d" is pretty common, so that would give you "Mate Eight Five". Otherwise another candidate would be "Made Eight Five".

When I have the time I will have to flick through the AICC channel again and listen with those alternatives in mind, and see what fits. It's a pity no one was deaf and needed it spelled out - Mike Alpha Tango Echo Eight Five - like the MCC had to do at one point for the Langley fighters.

 

[Cheap Shot]

This is one of the most confusing things on the tapes. Boston ARTCC continually refer to AA11 being EAST of JFK, but it didn't come in east of JFK, it came in NORTH of JFK. On occasion they do say "north".

As I understand it the last primary return on AA11 was about 8 nautical miles North West of JFK at 0842EDT.

However I'm wondering if maybe the direction references are to the JFK beacon rather than the airport itself. That's something maybe Cheap Shot will pop in and answer some time.

I do know that often on the NEADS tapes you hear "east of JFK" which just doesn't make any sense as AA11 was never over there.

8nmi NW of JFK would put the aircraft just south of the southern end of Central Park.

We were using the VOR but I beleive it is near the airport. We don't actually use the VOR, on our maps we show airways but the airways stops five miles from the VOR, so what you end up is a general idea where the VOR is with a 10 miles area with nothing in it. I would have based my visual identification on that. I do remember the aircraft coming in the from the north. I think I remember saying Northeast at one point, I also had a TMU specialist reading from the scope at that point. I wasn't in front of a scope. The only time I was, was when I gave NEADS the exact lat/long 30 miles north of JFK. Also we use magnetic don't know if that makes a difference or not, straight up on our scope is actually 020 degrees. Straight down is 200 degrees. Our maps are shifted 20 degrees to the left. So an aircraft coming straight down on our scope was heading 200, but kind of coming from the northeast.

 

[gumboot]

We were using the VOR but I beleive it is near the airport. We don't actually use the VOR, on our maps we show airways but the airways stops five miles from the VOR, so what you end up is a general idea where the VOR is with a 10 miles area with nothing in it. I would have based my visual identification on that. I do remember the aircraft coming in the from the north. I think I remember saying Northeast at one point, I also had a TMU specialist reading from the scope at that point. I wasn't in front of a scope. The only time I was, was when I gave NEADS the exact lat/long 30 miles north of JFK. Also we use magnetic don't know if that makes a difference or not, straight up on our scope is actually 020 degrees. Straight down is 200 degrees. Our maps are shifted 20 degrees to the left. So an aircraft coming straight down on our scope was heading 200, but kind of coming from the northeast.

Thanks for that.

There was definitely at least once that someone from Boston said "north" and for whatever reason whoever was listening at NEADS said "east", so I think a lot of the time that was the mistake that was happening. I think even the tapes - despite how chaotic they sound - probably don't capture just how noisy and chaotic it was in NEADS that morning.

 

[jaydeehess]

This is one of the most confusing things on the tapes. Boston ARTCC continually refer to AA11 being EAST of JFK, but it didn't come in east of JFK, it came in NORTH of JFK. On occasion they do say "north".

As I understand it the last primary return on AA11 was about 8 nautical miles North West of JFK at 0842EDT.

However I'm wondering if maybe the direction references are to the JFK beacon rather than the airport itself. That's something maybe Cheap Shot will pop in and answer some time.

I do know that often on the NEADS tapes you hear "east of JFK" which just doesn't make any sense as AA11 was never over there.

8nmi NW of JFK would put the aircraft just south of the southern end of Central Park.

That would put it about 4-5 miles away from the towers if my map reading is correct.

The CT's bugaboo is that the plane had reduced velocity to 300 knots at that time yet NIST claims it hit at 500MPH, a difference of about 160 MPH

I pointed out that this aircraft manages to acellerate to take off speed in less than that distance and that if it was desending it would have no problem increasing its speed by that amount in the time available.

Now of course I have stated to him that if it is east of JFK then it is even further from the towers.
Given that this report must be wrong, either the primary that ATC was tracking was not Flt 11, or the speaker is incorrect in stating 'east', I don't know why the CT's haven't noticed this 'anomaly'.

 

[beachnut]

That would put it about 4-5 miles away from the towers if my map reading is correct.

The CT's bugaboo is that the plane had reduced velocity to 300 knots at that time yet NIST claims it hit at 500MPH, a difference of about 160 MPH

I pointed out that this aircraft manages to acellerate to take off speed in less than that distance and that if it was desending it would have no problem increasing its speed by that amount in the time available.

Now of course I have stated to him that if it is east of JFK then it is even further from the towers.
Given that this report must be wrong, either the primary that ATC was tracking was not Flt 11, or the speaker is incorrect in stating 'east', I don't know why the CT's haven't noticed this 'anomaly'.

If you are talking about 11 or 175 going from 300 to 470 to 590 mph. They only over speed for 10 to 20 seconds and with full throttle it would only take 20 seconds to gain a lot of speed.

In 49 seconds Flight 77 went from 300 KIAS to 463 KIAS. 77 had been at 300 knots, or close, in the big turn to get down and line up with the Pentagon.

 

[jaydeehess]

In 49 seconds Flight 77 went from 300 KIAS to 463 KIAS. 77 had been at 300 knots, or close, in the big turn to get down and line up with the Pentagon.

So what's that, about 1.75 g forward acelleration?

What's rotation speed of a 757 when taking off?