NORAD Question

[gumboot]

Well, it depends on which story you want to believe. On September 18, 2001 NORAD released their, "NORAD’s Response Times." This showed when they were informed about each flight and when fighters were launched to deal with each of the hijacked aircraft. For Flight 93 they listed the notification time as, "N/A ***** The FAA and NEADS established a line of open communication discussing AA Flt 77 and UA Flt 93." This would imply that there was no formal notification, but they were being continually updated on the events through open lines of communication. Colonel Alan Scott testified to the 9/11 Commission that, "9:16, now FAA reports a possible hijack of United Flight 93, which is out in the Ohio area. That's the last flight that is going to impact the ground." Larry Arnold, in his testimony gave a different reason why fighters were launched from Langley. He stated, “we launched the aircraft out of Langley to put them over top of Washington, DC, not in response to American Airline 77, but really to put them in position in case United 93 were to head that way... I was personally anxious to see what 93 was going to do, and our intent was to intercept it.” He also stated to the Commission that at 9:24Am, "Our focus...was on United 93 which was being pointed out to us very aggressively I might say by the FAA." In the book Air War Over America, put out by the US Air Force it reports, "We watched the 93 track as it meandered around the Ohio-Pennsylvania area and started to turn south toward DC.” This would have occurred around 9:36AM. So NORAD clearly knew about Flight 93 before 10:07AM. However, if they had known about it for all this time and didn't launch fighters then this opens themselves up to the possibility that there was some type of stand-down order in place. So they decided to make up a new story and say that they didn't even know about United 93 until after it crashed. It was also useful in helping to remove suspicion of a shoot down.

"We must look for consistency. Where there is a want of it we must suspect deception." Indeed.

Your Welcome

Unfortunately for you the truth is all there on the NEADS tapes which I have on my computer, and those tapes do not support your claims.

NEADS knew nothing of United Airlines Flight 93 until 10:07EDT, 4 minutes after it had crashed.

 

[A-Train]

Unfortunately for you the truth is all there on the NEADS tapes which I have on my computer, and those tapes do not support your claims.

Have you considered the possibility that some of these tapes may have been doctored, forged, augmented, or in any other way tampered with to distort the truth? If not, why not?

 

[Hyperviolet]

Have you considered the possibility that some of these tapes may have been doctored, forged, augmented, or in any other way tampered with to distort the truth? If not, why not?

Have you any evidence for this?

 

[Corsair 115]

Have you considered the possibility that some of these tapes may have been doctored, forged, augmented, or in any other way tampered with to distort the truth? If not, why not?

There's a phrase which describes the argument attempted above: grasping at straws.

 

[uk_dave]

Have you considered the possibility that some of these tapes may have been doctored, forged, augmented, or in any other way tampered with to distort the truth? If not, why not?

Have you considered the possibility that the tapes haven't been doctored, forged, augmented or tampered with? If not, why not?

Oy vey! What am I saying? My life, already......

 

[funk de fino]

Have you considered the possibility that some of these tapes may have been doctored, forged, augmented, or in any other way tampered with to distort the truth? If not, why not?

What a hilarious predictability there is about that post. Sussed out how long to arm a jet yet Atrain? What tests need to be done?

 

[A-Train]

Have you considered the possibility that the tapes haven't been doctored, forged, augmented or tampered with? If not, why not?

We should remember that all agree the released NORAD tapes expose that the original story told by the military to the 9/11 Commission was a deliberate falsification-- i.e., a lie.

"The real story is actually better than the one we told," a norad general admitted to 9/11-commission staffers when confronted with evidence from the tapes that contradicted his original testimony. And so it seems.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2006/08/norad200608

Thus the tapes represent the testimony of a witness who has already admitted he has lied on the stand. Any judge or jury has the right to question the validity of this new testimony.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

We should remember that all agree the released NORAD tapes expose that the original story told by the military to the 9/11 Commission was a deliberate falsification-- i.e., a lie.

Thus the tapes represent the testimony of a witness who has already admitted he has lied on the stand. Any judge or jury has the right to question the validity of this new testimony.

so if the tapes are fake then maybe the original testimony is true after all, lol

 

[gumboot]

Any judge or jury has the right to question the validity of this new testimony.

The tapes are not testimony, they are material evidence, whose authenticity has been verified by the 9/11 Commission. I already know from past experience that discussing anything with you is pointless, but your "they faked the tapes" post above just confirms that my decision is the right one. You have absolutely nothing whatsoever to contribute to the 9/11 debate. Go play in the mud somewhere.

 

[Cheap Shot]

My Tapes are real, they were not morphed, and to the best of my recollection the responses are correct. However everytime I bring something up regarding NEADS, you respond that basically that I don't know a damn thing about NEADS or what they do. I have been to NEADS many times, I know the setup, I know some of the positions, and unless you work there or at one of the other SOCC's I am sure I know more that you do about them. I talk to the NEADS Airspace Manager weekly, if not daily. I personally had the chance to talk to many of the players at NEADS on 9-11, and we discussed the events of that day. I am not an epert on the recorders that were used, and whether my recordings were on a different channel, or what, but I know they were not reviewed until the DoJ came to listen to them.

 

[fullflavormenthol]

Have you considered the possibility that some of these tapes may have been doctored, forged, augmented, or in any other way tampered with to distort the truth? If not, why not?

Then were is the evidence of them being doctored? I mean it comes down to a similiar issue people bring up about doctored photographs. When someone alters something they inevitably leave evidence of this change.

What this really comes down to is this tactic of claiming forgery to discredit any evidence that goes against the conspiracy theory. This is the central flaw in the logic used by those who believe in CT's. Eventually everything and everyone is a part of the conspiracy.

Yet, it is not impossible to detect forgery, which leads back to the central issue. Where is the evidence of doctoring of the tapes?

 

[Lenbrazil]

In the book Air War Over America, put out by the US Air Force it reports, "We watched the 93 track as it meandered around the Ohio-Pennsylvania area and started to turn south toward DC.” This would have occurred around 9:36AM. So NORAD clearly knew about Flight 93 before 10:07AM. However, if they had known about it for all this time and didn't launch fighters then this opens themselves up to the possibility that there was some type of stand-down order in place.

Has anyone read this book? I confirmed through Google Books that the quote is in it but have not beenable to confirm it was from Gen Arnold or Col. Marr as claimed by truthers. Besides bring into question when the learned about 93 truthers claim it disproves the claim NORAD's radar only pointed outward. Comments?

 

[beachnut]

Has anyone read this book? I confirmed through Google Books that the quote is in it but have not beenable to confirm it was from Gen Arnold or Col. Marr as claimed by truthers. Besides bring into question when the learned about 93 truthers claim it disproves the claim NORAD's radar only pointed outward. Comments?

The book would be kind of free if it is from the USAF.

How could they know it was 93? What RADAR, an E-3, or which one. You already confirmed NORAD can see target over the USA, but NORAD would not be tracking planes over the USA unless there was a need, like Payne's plane where NORAD can use some RADAR assets to see tracks over the USA. But there is no mission for NORAD before 911 over the USA unless asked by the FAA, or a big war starts.

The big question, even it is in a book, how can they say the target is 93 on 911, as it happened. It is easy to say it was 93 after 911, after what happened was sorted out, but on 911?

thread resurection... it is alive

 

[Cheap Shot]

Has anyone read this book? I confirmed through Google Books that the quote is in it but have not beenable to confirm it was from Gen Arnold or Col. Marr as claimed by truthers. Besides bring into question when the learned about 93 truthers claim it disproves the claim NORAD's radar only pointed outward. Comments?

The book was released in 2003. New NEADS tapes were discovered in September 2003 after the release of that book. A fair amount of information In that Book was corrected regarding AA11, AA77, and UAL93, after the release of those tapes. The timeline changed dramatically.

 

[beachnut]

Has anyone read this book? I confirmed through Google Books that the quote is in it but have not beenable to confirm it was from Gen Arnold or Col. Marr as claimed by truthers. Besides bring into question when the learned about 93 truthers claim it disproves the claim NORAD's radar only pointed outward. Comments?

http://media.nara.gov/9-11/MFR/t-0148-911MFR-00172.pdf

Looks like people are mixed up about what they knew on 911, and made composite statements, mixing up what happened on 911, with what they knew, thought they knew, on 911 in real time.


http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015060776898#page/70/mode/1up

The quote. It means nothing without more information.

 

[gumboot]

Besides bring into question when the learned about 93 truthers claim it disproves the claim NORAD's radar only pointed outward. Comments?

The issue is not that NORAD's radars only point outwards. The issue is twofold.

1) NORAD SOACs only use feeds from JSS radar sites, which are located along the coastline.

2) NORAD only has access to primary radar feeds, which are used with filtering set to low so that they can see everything. Over water this is fine, because over water there isn't much that puts out a radar signature that can clutter the scope. Over land, however, anything from mountains to buildings to trees, to clouds of insects can register on radar, cluttering the scopes and making it practically impossible to detect anything.

 

[Reheat]

Besides bring into question when the learned about 93 truthers claim it disproves the claim NORAD's radar only pointed outward. Comments?

I couldn't care less about what twoofers claim or believe. They are simply irrelevant anymore...

However, I think you're confusing capability as opposed to focus and philosophy. While NORAD did have the capability to look at the North American continent with radar (Gumboot can likely provide more specifics), their focus, training, and philosophy was primarily outward. As we all know bureaucracy is very slow to change and NORAD was guilty of too much "Cold War" mentality pre-9/11. In addition, their equipment was aging and not equipped to see primary targets in the congested areas of the NE US..

Why would they track anything over the NA continent anyway? There had never been a hostile aircraft over the continent, so there was no need for them to devote time and resources toward that end. They don't control the airspace and it is always very congested. So, basically they were looking primarily outward, not inward for possible hostiles...

While I don't know about this claim they were tracking UA 93 there was no reason they couldn't because their focus by this point was inward attempting to determine what was going on with all of the hijack information coming into the system... In addition, UA 93 was over the midwest US where ground clutter and congestion was not the significant problem it was on the East Coast....

ETA: I see Gumboot has already addressed their equipment problems, so hopefully you have a better understanding of the issues now....

 

[Lenbrazil]

Cuban Defector Exposes Hole in U.S. Air Defense : Military: MIG flies undetected to Key West, Fla. Officials say system is geared to other threats, and such lapses probably can't be stopped.

April 01, 1991|From Associated Press



MIAMI — The undetected flight of a Soviet-built MIG from Cuba to Key West, Fla., exposed gaps in the nation's southern air defense that military officials say may be all but impossible to plug.

The March 20 incident has prompted an internal investigation by NORAD, the U.S.-Canadian command charged with protecting North American airspace, spokesman Maj. John Niemann said.

No interceptors were scrambled to meet the MIG-23 flown by a defecting Cuban pilot, and tower personnel in Key West were unaware of the warplane's approach until it had circled the island several times attempting to land.

In 1969, another Cuban defector flew a MIG all the way to Homestead Air Force Base, just south of Miami, where it landed.

NORAD blames the lapses in part on a policy that since the 1960s has fixated on the Soviet Union.

[...]

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-04-01/news/mn-1262_1_air-defense-system

Not an April Fools joke:
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1991-03-21/news/9101140835_1_mig-23-military-defection-cuban

 

[Cheap Shot]

Besides bring into question when the learned about 93 truthers claim it disproves the claim NORAD's radar only pointed outward. Comments?

They used JSS sites that were located near the coast or to the borders of our country. They still used the full 360 degrees of these radar sites. Though tye predominantly were looking outward, they still could see approximatelly 260 miles inside with these JSS sites.