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Non-Religious Argument Against Abortion

The time between making the prediction and checking to see if it was correct. You are misunderstanding my aim with this argument.

I am not saying it is impossible to predict whether an abortion will deprive a person of a future -- this is self evident and nobody can argue with it. What I am saying is that it is impossible to tell whether, in the long run, an abortion will deprive more or less other future people of their future. The same goes for ALL actions one takes at any instant in their lives. That being the case, it is an arbitrary decision to say that the future of the fetus is any more valuable than the future of the people who will exist only if the fetus is aborted, etc. Just like it is an arbitrary decision to say the people you prevent from existing by leaving for work 5 minutes later are worth more than the people you prevent from existing by leaving 5 minutes earlier.

Are these morally significant considerations given that we cannot in any way know one way or the other? We know about this fetus at this time. Future theoretical fetuses seem to have a lesser moral claim. You're right judgments about them are arbitrary. Currently existing fetuses are more concrete, and thus, less arbitrary.

Since we agree that it's bad to deprive this person of her future at this time, and this fetus has a future like this person, isn't it also bad to deprive this fetus of its future at this time?

Oh, and regarding sleeping people. You seem to be missing my point. It's not whether you know you have a future like a person or not, it's whether you have a future like a person or not that is the main consideration.
 
I suspect you are arguing from a religious perspective, one that you are yet to eschew.

As a skeptic, I evaluate arguments and evidence. I am non-cognizant of motivations. In other words, my argument or evidence will stand on their own virtues, regardless of my motivation.
 
I didn't know we were having a debate.

Discussion, then.

Why don't you present your argument.

I thought I had. It is my reasoned judgement that it is not morally wrong for a person to remove a part of his or her own body. A foetus, up until the time that it can safely live outside a woman's body, is part of her body. Therefore, it is not morally wrong to abort a foetus.

Furthermore, the practical concerns with defining a foetus as a protected class of human at conception make that position more than untenable.

You could fill in my answers by imagining that I am much smarter and much more consistent than I really am. If you needed to make my argument, what would you argue when presented with your question?

I don't get it. Are you saying that you won't answer my questions about practical concerns because you don't know the answer and can't BS one?
 
How will they suffer ?

I think you are confused about the legal reasons behind the anti-murder laws.



Actually, it was juvenile and stupid. Grow up.



That happens to be another arbitrary distinction you like to make, but cannot justify.

In this context, regarding the evaluation of Marquis's argument, I don't particularly care what the legal reasons behind murder is. I'm not a legal positivist. Perhaps I'm mistaken. Why is the legal reasoning behind murder relevant?

In what way does a sperm alone have a future like a person?
 
Discussion, then.



I thought I had. It is my reasoned judgement that it is not morally wrong for a person to remove a part of his or her own body. A foetus, up until the time that it can safely live outside a woman's body, is part of her body. Therefore, it is not morally wrong to abort a foetus.

Furthermore, the practical concerns with defining a foetus as a protected class of human at conception make that position more than untenable.



I don't get it. Are you saying that you won't answer my questions about practical concerns because you don't know the answer and can't BS one?

If any other part of a woman's body, or a man's body for that matter, had a future like us, it would be wrong to destroy that thing too.
 
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Sperm in one hand and ovum in the other are among the things necessary to create a thing that has a future like ours. They are not, in and of themselves, sufficient for this task.
 
I'm actively non religious and somewhat anti-abortion, at least late term. The argument really comes down to when life begins to me. I don't for a moment accept that it is at conception, but I do think it is before birth.
It would be murder to abort a child then kill it.

Prior to viability, an aborted child will die if < ~ 24 weeks (with rare exceptions and the most skilled intensive care, 21 weeks).

From 24 to 26 weeks most infants would not survive without medical intervention and a few would begin surviving without medical intervention from 26 weeks on however, they would still need special feeding because they cannot nurse sufficiently at 26 weeks.

I see no reason to not use the age of viability outside the womb as a guide regarding abortion and most clinicians who perform abortions are very reluctant to perform abortions on viable fetuses. But I also see no reason not to leave that decision up to the provider and patient. If you are presented with a 12 year old victim of incest who by circumstance did not bring their pregnancy to anyone's attention, the decision should not be based on an unforgiving law.

Pregnancy and childbirth are leading causes of death in teenage girls in developing countries. And while not quite as bad in the developed world, pregnant teens still have serious health risks.

Legislating medical care is wrong (I'm not talking about negligence and laws regulating practice such as licensing providers or drugs) Legislating morality is often worse. I see nothing whatsoever immoral by my standards in a woman seeking an abortion of a fetus that is the size of your thumb and is as developed as a fish. At 19 weeks the infant looks pretty much like a tiny baby but since the decision, as you say, is somewhere in between conception and birth, and one must draw that line somewhere, if one person draws the line at 18 weeks and another at 23 weeks, who is to say there is really any substantial difference.

Viability does at least define a difference. However, some people watching thousands die in poverty might find it equally immoral to watch a million dollars being spent saving one 24 week old preemie.

Pregnancy poses a very serious threat to the mother. We don't think about that danger because risk has been considerably decreased in the US and other well off countries.
Every minute, a woman meets her death during pregnancy or childbirth.
98% of the deaths are in poor countries, but when you have very young pregnant girls, the risks from the pregnancy are high even in countries with good medical care.

State of the World's Mothers 2006 (See page 11 of the report for some maternal mortality stats in the worst countries.)

But there are also deaths which do not end up being recorded as pregnancy related. From a news article after the Lacy Peterson murder:
Homicide was found to be the leading cause of death for pregnant women in Maryland, according to a March 2001 study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association. Using death records and coroner reports, state health department researchers found 247 pregnancy-associated deaths between 1993 and 1998. Among those deaths, 50 were murders. By comparison, homicide was the fifth-leading cause of death among Maryland women. And, nationwide, the maternal mortality rate was just 9.9 percent in 1999, the most recent year for which statistics are available.

The point of this is that to decide on the morality of abortion by only looking at the issue of is it a child or a fetus is an immoral point of view in itself. Many people who have strong opinions against abortion simply ignore the fact this isn't a baby in a test tube. (The frozen embryos are, I'll get to that in a sec.)

Leaving aside confounding issues such as, is it one murder or two if you kill a pregnant woman, the real problem as I see it is trying to address this matter with laws, especially laws aimed at forcing one person's morals on another. It's one thing if the majority find murder immoral, but quite another if only half the country finds something to be immoral. To base a law on the moral opinion of 51% (give or take) of the population makes no sense. To have the legislators interfering in medical decisions between provider and patient in this case ties the hands of providers to give the best medical care they can.
 
Sperm in one hand and ovum in the other are among the things necessary to create a thing that has a future like ours. They are not, in and of themselves, sufficient for this task.
Well an embryo in a test tube isn't sufficient for the task either.
 
In what way does a sperm alone have a future like a person?

Because it can be part of the lonely sperm's future to no longer be alone.

How is the sperm less part of the whole development of a 20 year old human than the foetus, or the 6 year old or the 19 year old?

They share the same development, so whatever is in the future of a later "incarnation" will also be in the future of all "incarnations" that came before.

All sperms have once been single. If single sperms couldn't have a future like a person I'm gonna have to ask you where all the people come from that I keep meeting.

Likewise, not all featuses have a future like a person. Some of them simply never make it that far, for whatever reasons. (Suppose I will be run over and killed by a bus tomorrow. Then even now I don't have a future like a person, even though it might be wrongly expected that I will.)
 
Likewise, not all featuses have a future like a person. Some of them simply never make it that far, for whatever reasons. (Suppose I will be run over and killed by a bus tomorrow. Then even now I don't have a future like a person, even though it might be wrongly expected that I will.)

Yes, and since I have no non-woo way of knowing what your future will be, it would be morally wrong of me to kill you now, even though from a future-teller's point of view I'm not depriving you of anything of value.
 
If any other part of a woman's body, or a man's body for that matter, had a future like us, it would be wrong to destroy that thing too.

Ah.

So, if a person, in the womb, partially absorbs their twin foetus (and lets say, for arguments sake, that the absorbed material develops a partial spinal column but no brain), then would it be morally questionable to remove the extra tissue after birth, as that tissue could develop and have a Future Like Us?
 
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Yes, and since I have no non-woo way of knowing what your future will be, it would be morally wrong of me to kill you now, even though from a future-teller's point of view I'm not depriving you of anything of value.

That wasn't my point. Care to try again?

I was demonstrating that there is no significant difference between a sperm cell and a fetus.

Your posting here instead of procreating as much as you can is depriving children of their possible future! You *could* be having sex right now, or at least attempt to. That you aren't means children will not be born that would, if you acted differently.
 
Ah.

So, if a person, in the womb, partially absorbs their twin foetus (and lets say, for arguments sake, that the absorbed material develops a partial spinal column but no brain), then would it be morally questionable to remove the extra tissue after birth, as that tissue could develop and have a Future Like Us?

I don't know. Is it feasible that that thing could have a future like us? Since everything currently known to be a person has a brain (leaving open the question of whether there are persons without brains), I would doubt it.

This may be woo, as I don't follow the debate closely, but I would imagine that at some point in the future computers may become advanced enough that they become, operationally, persons. They would not, I imagine, have brains or bodies or be in any way like us in terms of biological or material categories. However, they would still be persons and every moral consideration that applies to persons would apply to them as well. Rights as well as duties.
 
Then so did the sperm that made them, right? I though you were trying to differentiate.

Thomas Harvey at Philosophy and Bioethics has a good answer. What do you think of it?

So does Daniels, who even contends that Marquis' future-like-ours principle confers a broad prima-facie obligation upon each man to have as much unprotected sex as possible (which, he professes, hopefully in jest, might entail rape!), and upon each woman of reproductive age to ensure that she becomes pregnant as frequently as possible.

The striking thing about these objectors is not purely that their arguments rest on some very questionable claims surrounding the identity of counterfactual persons. It is that the pivotal error common to them all illuminates the character of Marquis' argument. For Marquis does not argue that abortion is prima facie wrong because it reduces the number of valuable lives-like-ours in the future. Any argument that did would, indeed, render abstinence and celibacy gravely wrong. Marquis' argument, however, is predicated on the notion of identity.
 
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Thomas Harvey again,
the obvious- and relevant to Marquis- rejoinder to Hare is simply that since both the sperm and ovum cease to exist, it seems the proposition that I was in any sense a mereological sum of a sperm and an ovum is just as absurd as the idea that I was my parents. By contrast, the claim that I was a conceptus can be corroborated simply by pointing out that there is the continuity of being the same organism.
 
since both the sperm and ovum cease to exist, it seems the proposition that I was in any sense a mereological sum of a sperm and an ovum is just as absurd as the idea that I was my parents.

Nonsense.
 
This discussion has become rather tedious, as Stone Island parrots other's philosophical theories without developing his own counterarguments. In fact, I'm beginning to suspect that SI is writing a paper on this very topic and looking for a bit of help from the JREF posters!

Edited to add: Found an even better one: Parasitic twin with a brain and rudimentary brain functions.
A more recent case of a craniopagus parasite is Rebeca Martinez from the Dominican Republic. Born in December 2003, Rebeca had a second head very similar in structure to that of the Two-Headed Boy. Its facial features were badly deformed and some vestigial limb buds were attached to the neck stump. The second head also contained a partial brain and scans showed some low-level brain function belonging to the parasitic twin.
 
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