Non-binary identities are valid

[JoeMorgue]

Yeah, but when we are talking about transgender, we are still talking about a binary system. A natal male wants to be called “she” and viewed as a woman. I think that’s a whole ‘nother discussion. I do agree that a trans woman shouldn’t participate in female sports because they aren’t female, but that doesn’t really pertain here, does it?

The title of this thread is “Non-binary identities are valid.” Trans is not non-binary. What about third gender or genderless identities? Those are the people who want the weird pronouns and recognition of their “other” genderedness.

For my part, that’s the concept I can wrap my head around and, at this point, don’t accept as “valid” from a strict reality-based viewpoint.

It's all the same discussion until what criteria beyond "Pure self identity with zero criteria" is identified.

At this point we might as well be talking Otherkin.

 

[d4m10n]

It's all the same discussion until what criteria beyond "Pure self identity with zero criteria" is identified.

There was an attempt to apply the DSM criteria upthread but it basically came down to whether the individual in question sees themselves as belonging to an alternative gender.

 

[JoeMorgue]

There was an attempt to apply the DSM criteria upthread but it basically came down to whether the individual in question sees themselves as belonging to an alternative gender.

Which is essentially meaningless then.

 

[d4m10n]

Which is essentially meaningless then.

Or indisputably valid, depending on your POV. [emoji6]

 

[JoeMorgue]

Or indisputably valid, depending on your POV. [emoji6]

Yes. So 20 pages into the 20 billionth version of this topic, we finally agree on what the actual point of disagreement actually is.

It has nothing (well little) to do with gender, sex, biology, or social defined roles and expectations.

It's "how valid/meaningful are completely internal self images that do not corollate to any external objective criteria."

Let's see how long we can actually discuss it this time before we have to stop to talk about the price of tea in China. Betcha we're back at "Wait I count five fingers" and "No I count four fingers and a thumb" within a page.

 

[HansMustermann]

I'll disagree, actually. What someone's internal model is and how well it works for actually describing the reality they're trying to work with, well, that's their business. I dunno about you, but I don't really care if it's valid or not, or even what it actually is. In a sense, it being valid or not isn't even the right question. If it works for them, good for them.

But that's kinda the keyword: it's THEIR business, not mine.

It only becomes my problem when it turns into demands that everyone else must meet, in order for them to pretend that reality fits their model.

I'll use a slightly modified version of one of your examples from another thread: if grandpa Moritz's model is still stuck in the 30's, and nobody mention at the Xmas table that Maxine got a brown-ish jewish boyfriend, 'cause he gets triggered when you remind him that reality doesn't meet his model... is that a reasonable request to place on ME? Or is it unreasonable of HIM to turn the discussion into a soapbox for his views every single time? And if it's HIS model, then why do the OTHERS get all the duty in how to deal with it? Shouldn't he deal with his own issues? Or, dunno, at least meet me half-way?

 

[d4m10n]

It only becomes my problem when it turns into demands that everyone else must meet, in order for them to pretend that reality fits their model.

I don't think there are that many demands being made by the non-binary community, but I've seen a few. Typically they would prefer to see people use gender inclusive language such as "esteemed guests" instead of "ladies and gentlemen" or "hey y'all" instead of "hey guys," or "trash warrior" instead of "garbage man." (Okay I made one of those up.)

We've already covered the "preferred pronouns are mandatory" thing.

What other demands are being made? I expect we may hit a snag next time Elliot Page bangs out an award-worthy performance, at least among those who retain the old actor/actress categories.

 

[Elaedith]

Yeah, but when we are talking about transgender, we are still talking about a binary system. A natal male wants to be called “she” and viewed as a woman. I think that’s a whole ‘nother discussion. I do agree that a trans woman shouldn’t participate in female sports because they aren’t female, but that doesn’t really pertain here, does it?

The title of this thread is “Non-binary identities are valid.” Trans is not non-binary. What about third gender or genderless identities? Those are the people who want the weird pronouns and recognition of their “other” genderedness.

For my part, that’s the concept I can wrap my head around and, at this point, don’t accept as “valid” from a strict reality-based viewpoint.

Many people who identify as non-binary regard themselves as trans. The idea is that you have a gender 'assigned' to you at birth based on your sex and this doesn't match your actual gender, hence transitioning. You can transition to an alternative gender or no gender, not just the other one in a binary system.

Of course, the idea that we 'have' a gender which may not match the one 'assigned' is a concocted explanation to support a politically or emotionally desired conclusion. We have a sex observed at birth, and societies have expectations, roles and stereotypes based on this. We have traits and behaviours (whether innate or otherwise) that are considered typical or atypical of our sex to varying degrees, hence we are happy or unhappy with society's gender expectations to varying degrees.

 

[arthwollipot]

What does that even mean? I'm a man and I have no idea what that 'feels internally' like. I'm a man because I've got all the objective characteristics of a man and have no dysphoria about it.

There you go. You do know what being a man "feels internally" like. It's that.

 

[JoeMorgue]

There you go. You do know what being a man "feels internally" like. It's that.

Yeah except he said the exact opposite.

People do get that "gender identity" isn't something that like the vast majority of people have, right?

I don't "identify" as a male and don't you dare sit there and go "No you're lying, you really do."

I just am one. Same as I'm blue eyes and right-handed and O+ blood typed.

There is not some separate and distinct "identity" on my sex that exists separately from objective criteria.

 

[arthwollipot]

Yeah except he said the exact opposite.

People do get that "gender identity" isn't something that like the vast majority of people have, right?

I don't "identify" as a male and don't you dare sit there and go "No you're lying, you really do."

I just am one. Same as I'm blue eyes and right-handed and O+ blood typed.

There is not some separate and distinct "identity" on my sex that exists separately from objective criteria.

Sure. But you do know what it feels like to be male. In fact, that's the only thing (meaning gender) that you can know how to be, unless you have some magical insight into the feelings of other people. Me too.

But acknowledging this does not preclude also acknowledging that some other people don't have this strong knowledge of being male, or female. You say "I am one". A nonbinary person might say "I am not one", and that's okay.

 

[d4m10n]

I could say "I'm not left-handed" and that would be okay (socially and ethically acceptable) but it wouldn't exactly be true.

 

[theprestige]

Sure. But you do know what it feels like to be male. In fact, that's the only thing (meaning gender) that you can know how to be, unless you have some magical insight into the feelings of other people. Me too.

But acknowledging this does not preclude also acknowledging that some other people don't have this strong knowledge of being male, or female. You say "I am one". A nonbinary person might say "I am not one", and that's okay.

I draw the line somewhere between

"I was born male but I don't feel it,"

And

"I was born male but I totally know what female feels like and that's what I am I'm sure."

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that nonbinary identities are valid, but transgender identities are a crock of ****.

 

[arthwollipot]

I could say "I'm not left-handed" and that would be okay (socially and ethically acceptable) but it wouldn't exactly be true.

An appropriate analogy only if you are considering someone's genitals, which is still nobody else's business other than that person and any person in a sexually active relationship with them.

 

[theprestige]

I could say "I'm not left-handed" and that would be okay (socially and ethically acceptable) but it wouldn't exactly be true.

It's okay only because there's no real social or legal obligation hanging on your self-opinion. The moment you move on to "... And therefore you must", it stops being okay.

 

[arthwollipot]

It's okay only because there's no real social or legal obligation hanging on your self-opinion.

That is true because we as a society removed the stigma of being left-handed. It wasn't so long ago (my father's generation) that left handed kids were still forced in school to write with their right hands.

If we can stop forcing people to write with their non-dominant hand, we can stop forcing them to use the wrong pronouns.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Sure. But you do know what it feels like to be male. In fact, that's the only thing (meaning gender) that you can know how to be, unless you have some magical insight into the feelings of other people. Me too.

I disagree. If you have always experienced a state, and never not experienced anything but that state, how can you determine what sensations you feel come from that state and not from any other factor? Do strawberries taste the same to men as they do to women? How could you possibly know, unless you eat a strawberry while being one sex, then change sex and eat another strawberry?

Imagine you're playing the board game Clue (or Cluedo, for the internationals) but you always have to guess the same room, person, and weapon. You will never win the game because without the ability to change the variables you cannot isolate which one actually does what. You can theorize and guess, but you can't directly experience it.

For all you know, your "feeling of being male" is actually entirely due to being your blood type. Unless you can change your sex or blood type you can't disprove that, not even in the Billiard Room with any number of Wrenches.

 

[theprestige]

An appropriate analogy only if you are considering someone's genitals, which is still nobody else's business other than that person and any person in a sexually active relationship with them.

I'm pretty sure there are people seriously arguing that taking someone's genitals into account in a sexual liason is bigotry.

 

[theprestige]

That is true because we as a society removed the stigma of being left-handed. It wasn't so long ago (my father's generation) that left handed kids were still forced in school to write with their right hands.

If we can stop forcing people to write with their non-dominant hand, we can stop forcing them to use the wrong pronouns.

Begs the question that they're the wrong pronouns.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I'm pretty sure there are people seriously arguing that taking someone's genitals into account in a sexual liason is bigotry.

Surely it depends on the individual if the genitals are bigotry or merely averagetry.