Non-binary identities are valid

[Upchurch]

Okay, sure.

Different cultures certainly can have gender systems that are not strictly binary... but they all are predicated on sex.

First, you had just explained that biological sex is binary. Here you you agree that gender systems can be non-binary, but are still based on binary sex? This is a logical contradiction and we're just on the first sentence.

For those with more than two genders, they other genders are based on either ambiguity (androgyny) or on fertility (eunuchs, for example), or on people of one sex who wish to live and take on the roles of the opposite sex.

Heh. Okay, tell me. What biological sex does an androgynous person have? If androgyny is predicated on biological sex, such a gender could not belong to either sex, right?

To put more succinctly: if an androgyny is based on biological sex, then the other sex could not also be androgynous. If both sexes can be androgynous, then androgyny is not based on biological sex at all.

Your entire post is a self-contradiction.

 

[Myriad]

https://www.womenarehuman.com/woman-in-homeless-shelter-threatened-by-male-transgender-resident/[/URL]
https://www.womenarehuman.com/male-transgender-boasts-of-harassing-women-in-crisis-shelter/
https://www.womenarehuman.com/male-trans-pedophilia-rape-history-sexually-attacks-women-at-homeless-shelter-christopher-hambrook/
https://www.womenarehuman.com/women-in-shelter-forced-to-shower-with-man-who-identifies-as-transgender/

There's also a host of rape and domestic violence shelters in the UK and Canada that have lost funding because they are designated as "female only", and refuse to grant access to male-bodied people.

Ha! You expect a website that incorporates a radical proposition like "women are human" into its very name to have any credibility?

(Just in case...

yes, that's sarcasm.

)

 

[LondonJohn]

Ha! You expect a website that incorporates a radical proposition like "women are human" into its very name to have any credibility?

(Just in case...

yes, that's sarcasm.

)

Jokes aside, I think that leaning heavily on the output of a website whose URL gives a clear (and entirely accurate) indication of the (genuinely) radical ideology contained within...... is *interesting*

 

[Emily's Cat]

Oh it was irrelevant, huh?

See....... I don't think it was irrelevant.

Let's take just one example. An average of 390 children between the ages of 1 and 4 dies each year in the USA in swimming pool (or spa) accidents. It's in fact the leading cause of unintentional death for children in that age group. And five times that number of children in that age group require emergency hospital admission for swimming pool accidents.

If your "logic" is to be followed through in this example, it's totally clear what needs to be done: all US households with children of those ages which have swimming pools or spas must be federally mandated to drain their pools/spas and fill them in with rubble and topsoil. And no swimming baths in the US should be allowed to give access to any children of those ages. It's a bloody disgrace, I tell you. Those young children deliberately and knowingly being placed in direct danger of death or serious injury in this way.

Or........ federal and state governments/legislatures in the US take any and all reasonable steps to mitigate and minimise the number of deaths and serious injuries to children aged 1-4, while stopping well short of the clearly-ridiculous policy of ordering the in-fill of residential pools of families with young children, and the banning of young children from all pools.


And yet you still do not (or cannot?) figure it out?

Inapt comparison.

Pools are already required to take steps to prevent drownings for children. Most states in the US require pools to be gated and walled to prevent children gaining access by accident. Most also require special locks or two-part handles for doors that lead from the house to a pool. Public pools require that children are supervised by an adult, or have lifeguards on hand.

Now, let's go ahead and take your pool example, and see how well it fits this situation.

The policy advocated for is that male people be allowed to gain access to female prison wards on their claim of identifying as women. They previously were not allowed there at all, because they are male and prisons are segregated by sex.

To parallel your pool example... an analogous policy would be one that requires all houses to have pools, and to allow homeowners to make a personal declaration that no kids will drown in their pools.

We're talking about a policy that will increase the risk of harm above the current level. Your illogical version of my logic doesn't apply. My logic would not require that all pools be filled in. My logic requires only that the currently existing safeguards remain in place, rather than being tossed out the window.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Okay, sure.


First, you had just explained that biological sex is binary. Here you you agree that gender systems can be non-binary, but are still based on binary sex? This is a logical contradiction and we're just on the first sentence.


Heh. Okay, tell me. What biological sex does an androgynous person have? If androgyny is predicated on biological sex, such a gender could not belong to either sex, right?

To put more succinctly: if an androgyny is based on biological sex, then the other sex could not also be androgynous. If both sexes can be androgynous, then androgyny is not based on biological sex at all.

Your entire post is a self-contradiction.

Androgyny is based on either intersex characteristics, or on characteristics outside of the normal ranges. So a female with very small breasts and narrow hips who has a disorder that causes her to grow facial hair might be considered androgynous in this case. Or a very effeminate male who never developed facial hair.

A determination of someone being androgynous is based on them not being sufficiently feminine or female appearing if they are female, or on them not being sufficiently masculine or male appearing if they are male. It is still being measured relative to the biological sex binary.

Either way, they're all based on the expectations around biologicals sex - and sex is absolutely binary. Even people with intersex disorders are either male or female. In some rare cases, they end up with malformed or improperly developed genitalia... but they are still only either of the sex that produces large immobile gametes, or they are are of the sex that produce small motile gametes.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Jokes aside, I think that leaning heavily on the output of a website whose URL gives a clear (and entirely accurate) indication of the (genuinely) radical ideology contained within...... is *interesting*

Women are human is a radical concept?

 

[Upchurch]

Androgyny is based on either intersex characteristics, or on characteristics outside of the normal ranges. So a female with very small breasts and narrow hips who has a disorder that causes her to grow facial hair might be considered androgynous in this case. Or a very effeminate male who never developed facial hair.

...do you honestly think that's what androgyny is? I'm honestly not sure how to respond to that.

Are you at all familiar with the career of David Bowie?

 

[d4m10n]

The first one and the last three.

Okay, so you're comfortable making the claim that Sam Smith (based on what they've said in various outlets) most probably has all of the following attributes:

1. Marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics
2. Strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
3. Strong desire to be treated as the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
4. Strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

I'm having trouble seeing where you're getting any of this.

1) Smith has not talked down the possession of male sex characteristics, to my knowledge.

2) Has Smith overtly expressed such a desire?

3) Has Smith overtly expressed such a desire?

4) Perhaps Smith has expressed strong convictions that they experience feelings and reactions typical to non-binary persons, but honestly I've no idea what that should be taken to mean.

(Typical feminine feelings and reactions include "gracefulness, gentleness, empathy, humility, and sensitivity" according to the relevant wiki, whereas typical masculine feelings and reactions include "strength, courage, independence, leadership, and assertiveness." What sort of feelings and desires can we say typify non-binary as alternative gender?)

Finally (and perhaps most importantly) has Smith given us any indication to believe that their non-binariness is in any sense grounded in a process of psychiatric evaluation, professional or otherwise?

 

[Upchurch]

I don't disagree. I also think that male-bodied prisoners should not be housed with female-bodied prisoners, regardless of how they feel about their sex.

Not even in a reformed prison system that does not allow for any kind of assault?

 

[Ziggurat]

Not even in a reformed prison system that does not allow for any kind of assault?

There's a lot of room for improvement, but to not allow for any kind of assault, you would need to physically separate all prisoners at all times. That will not happen, and probably should not either.

 

[Upchurch]

There's a lot of room for improvement, but to not allow for any kind of assault, you would need to physically separate all prisoners at all times. That will not happen, and probably should not either.

Gave up on the nursing school conspiracy where the lizard people* are using to test rubrics to control frog DNA*, huh?



* Since you wouldn't actually say, I had to make a few guesses.

 

[xjx388]

...do you honestly think that's what androgyny is? I'm honestly not sure how to respond to that.

Are you at all familiar with the career of David Bowie?

David Bowie was a man who played with androgyny and sexuality to sell records. He has admitted this many times.

Bad example.

Androgyny is (putting aside people with intersex conditions) simply a matter of being able to pull off a look.

 

[Ziggurat]

Gave up on the nursing school conspiracy where the lizard people* are using to test rubrics to control frog DNA*, huh?



* Since you wouldn't actually say, I had to make a few guesses.

You really can't engage in debate honestly, can you? These pathetic caricatures are the best you can do.

 

[xjx388]

Okay, so you're comfortable making the claim that Sam Smith (based on what they've said in various outlets) most probably has all of the following attributes:

1. Marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics
2. Strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
3. Strong desire to be treated as the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
4. Strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

I'm having trouble seeing where you're getting any of this.

1) Smith has not talked down the possession of male sex characteristics, to my knowledge.

2) Has Smith overtly expressed such a desire?

3) Has Smith overtly expressed such a desire?

4) Perhaps Smith has expressed strong convictions that they experience feelings and reactions typical to non-binary persons, but honestly I've no idea what that should be taken to mean.

(Typical feminine feelings and reactions include "gracefulness, gentleness, empathy, humility, and sensitivity" according to the relevant wiki, whereas typical masculine feelings and reactions include "strength, courage, independence, leadership, and assertiveness." What sort of feelings and desires can we say typify non-binary as alternative gender?)

Finally (and perhaps most importantly) has Smith given us any indication to believe that their non-binariness is in any sense grounded in a process of psychiatric evaluation, professional or otherwise?

Sam Smith has so much in common with my karaoke friend -let’s call them Max. Smith is like the British version. I can’t speak for Smith, of course, but I can tell you that Max simply doesn’t feel like either a man or a woman. Some days they want to paint their nails and wear make up; other days they want to be very masculine. I can say that Max’s feminine presentation is not very passably female, lol, but it’s just a part of Max’s personality.

All of these gender identities, from an external view, seem to be more about wanting to be able to groom and dress themselves in whatever way they want. If Max and Sam Smith had been born in earlier times, they would have simply identified as a gay men.

 

[arthwollipot]

Sex, on the other hand, is binary. Humans are either male or female. They cannot be both, and there is no in-between sex.

Not true.

 

[Elaedith]

I'm not entirely sure why it should be considered timely, and neither am I sure about the validity of his statement.

Because we are being asked to base validity on unfalsifiable criteria. Leading experts in the field are aware of this trend and concerned about it.

After all, is it possible to measure or calibrate "objective evidence" to indicate homosexuality*?

Yes.

I fear that Dr Cantor may need to revisit his understanding around the identification and diagnosis of many different types of mental health conditions (and, for that matter, many different types of mental health disorders).

Given that Dr Cantor is a clinical psychologist with decades of relevant experience in clinical practice and research, I suspect he may have sufficient understanding around the identification and diagnosis of mental health conditions.

* that is to say, as a valid mental health condition (as opposed to outcomes - for example engaging in gay sex...)

Describing homosexuality as a mental health condition is bizarre.

 

[Upchurch]

You really can't engage in debate honestly, can you? These pathetic caricatures are the best you can do.

I can, but it takes someone willing to make an honest argument. Wanna try sometime? We could start with your nursing school point that didn't really go anywhere or perhaps explaining who it is that is coming for me.

 

[Elaedith]

Not true.

Yes it is true. How many times do we have to debunk this nonsense?

 

[Elaedith]

Gender dysphoria has everything to do with people who claim identify as neither gender.

Gender dysphoria is simply defined as non-identification with the gender assigned to you at birth (which in virtually every instance is, of course, the gender correlating to your biological sex). So for example I was born male, and was assigned the gender "man" at birth. If I have gender dysphoria, it means I do not identify as "man" - and that encompasses everything from "I identify as woman" to "I identify as neither man nor woman, and consider myself gender-fluid".

No it isn't. The diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria require the presence of 'clinically significant distress or impairment' for valid diagnosis. Somebody who identifies as transgender without this does not meet the criteria for having gender dysphoria. There is no evidence that the majority of people who identify as nonbinary meet the criteria for having gender dysphoria.

 

[gnome]

Yes, more likely to harm. Transwomen commit sexual crimes at the same rate as any other male, regardless of how far they've transitioned.

That's not quite the question I'm looking for. Do transwomen PRISONERS commit sexual crimes at a greater rate as other prisoners in the same ward, for similar offense? That I think is what will give the better idea of whether the presence of transwomen increases the danger to other inmates.

https://www.womenarehuman.com/woman-in-homeless-shelter-threatened-by-male-transgender-resident/
https://www.womenarehuman.com/male-transgender-boasts-of-harassing-women-in-crisis-shelter/
https://www.womenarehuman.com/male-trans-pedophilia-rape-history-sexually-attacks-women-at-homeless-shelter-christopher-hambrook/
https://www.womenarehuman.com/women-in-shelter-forced-to-shower-with-man-who-identifies-as-transgender/

There's also a host of rape and domestic violence shelters in the UK and Canada that have lost funding because they are designated as "female only", and refuse to grant access to male-bodied people.

Thank you for the links--I will have a look.