Non-binary identities are valid

[Emily's Cat]

They do, but I accept you might not understand that.

My use of the words "per se" convey my (correct) contention that gender identity has nothing intrinsically to do with biological sex. That is to say, there is no linkage or necessary correlation between the two. Which is..... true.

Oh well.

Even with goal-post shifting, you're still incorrect. But lets start with the biggest rock here. You did NOT claim that gender identity had nothing to do with sex, you claimed that gender dysphoria had nothing to do with sex:

It appears that you're unfamiliar with the concept of gender dysphoria. It's got nothing whatsoever per se to do with one's biological sex, one's name, one's clothing preferences or one's sexual orientation (although it can often partially manifest itself through any/all but the first of those categories).

Let's move on to the next but however... in which you say there is not necessarily any linkage between gender identity and sex. This is also false. The entire concept of "gender identity" as put forth is explicitly one of being in disagreement with one's biological sex. The entirety of gender identity is founded on whether or not one's mental conception of one's internal sense of self is in agreement with, or in opposition to, one's physical sex.

Without biological sex, the entire concept of gender, gender identity, and gender dysphoria simply to not exist.

 

[Distracted1]

There's a fundamental difference, but this is nothing whatsoever to do with the title of this thread.

I should think that in a thread about "validating identities", how an identity gets "validated" is entirely germane.

What is the "fundamental difference" you refer to?

 

[Aber]

(I mean I make that plea, but I suspect that it will not only fall on deaf ears, but will probably result in a fresh diatribe...)

At least this time you didn't call her hysterical.

 

[Upchurch]

In what scenarios is gender NOT associated with social expectations and roles pertaining to biological sex?

Once again, different cultures can have different gender systems. Not all of them are binary or based particularly on biological sex. That's one of the ways we know that gender is a social construct and not specifically a synonym for biological sex. If it were, there would be no variation among different cultures.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Ah the good old laundry list of terms from the radical-proto-feminist playbook (or should I say website?). Excellent! And just as expected.

In answer to your question, I'll answer you in even shoutier terms:

One is too many.

If one is too many, and more than one has already occurred as a direct result of policies driven by self-declaration of gender identity... then why do you continue to insist that such policies should be continued and expanded?

(And nice touch with the "to affirm the feelings of males" stuff. I'd say it tells me all I need to know about your position, but I already knew it with crystal clarity anyhow)

What is the reason then? Why is it that trans-identified children are trying to use the changing rooms of the opposite sex? Why is it that trans-identified athletes are fighting to compete against the opposite sex? Why is it that trans-identified people are getting rape shelters defunded and shut down?

 

[Upchurch]

If one is too many, and more than one has already occurred as a direct result of policies driven by self-declaration of gender identity... then why do you continue to insist that such policies should be continued and expanded?

Perhaps the problem is not with gender, but a prison system that allows this to happen?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Once again, different cultures can have different gender systems. Not all of them are binary or based particularly on biological sex. That's one of the ways we know that gender is a social construct and not specifically a synonym for biological sex. If it were, there would be no variation among different cultures.

Different cultures certainly can have gender systems that are not strictly binary... but they all are predicated on sex. For those with more than two genders, they other genders are based on either ambiguity (androgyny) or on fertility (eunuchs, for example), or on people of one sex who wish to live and take on the roles of the opposite sex.

They are all dependent upon biological sex.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Perhaps the problem is not with gender, but a prison system that allows this to happen?

I don't disagree. I also think that male-bodied prisoners should not be housed with female-bodied prisoners, regardless of how they feel about their sex.

 

[LondonJohn]

I should think that in a thread about "validating identities", how an identity gets "validated" is entirely germane.

What is the "fundamental difference" you refer to?

You're welcome to start a new thread if you want to discuss this. It doesn't belong in this thread.

 

[LondonJohn]

If one is too many, and more than one has already occurred as a direct result of policies driven by self-declaration of gender identity... then why do you continue to insist that such policies should be continued and expanded?




What is the reason then? Why is it that trans-identified children are trying to use the changing rooms of the opposite sex? Why is it that trans-identified athletes are fighting to compete against the opposite sex? Why is it that trans-identified people are getting rape shelters defunded and shut down?

Ohhhhh brother.

(Or, to be apposite, "ohhhhhh gender-fluid sibling")


ETA: I note that you snipped a portion of my post in your riposte. Did that snipped portion perhaps ring a bell, or did it maybe touch a nerve?

 

[Distracted1]

You're welcome to start a new thread if you want to discuss this. It doesn't belong in this thread.

I am aware of the "thread starter" function.
However, questions of identity are indeed appropriate to this thread.
If the if the validity of one identity is to be based soley upon self-reporting, how does it not follow that other identities would not share that requirement?

 

[Upchurch]

Different cultures certainly can have gender systems that are not strictly binary... but they all are predicated on sex. For those with more than two genders, they other genders are based on either ambiguity (androgyny) or on fertility (eunuchs, for example), or on people of one sex who wish to live and take on the roles of the opposite sex.

They are all dependent upon biological sex.

Carefully read what you just wrote again.

 

[gnome]

And you repeatedly play this "oh, well it won't be a big deal, it won't happen, and if it does then we'll deal with it then" game on this topic. But when you are presented with actual real situations where the harm has already happened, where damage is already done... you go silent for a few days and ignore it. As if by not answering you somehow manage to convince yourself and everyone else that it doesn't exist and you've never been presented with the cases.

The fact is that female prisoners ARE being raped by transgender prisoners who identify as women but are genitally intact. It has happened repeatedly.

The fact is that female athletes are being displaced by male athletes who identify as girls. It has happened repeatedly.

The fact is that males who identify as women have gained access to rape shelters by claiming womanhood, and then proceeded to leer at, masturbate over, and sexually harass the female victims who are sheltering there.

All of these things have already happened - and they all continue to happen.

I have questions about these facts. Starting with the caveat that I am not challenging them as factual. What I feel is a need to know more.

Regarding prisoners--does the data show that a transgendered prisoner in a prison for females is more likely to harm (especially sexually abuse) another prisoner than others there? Does stage of transition seem to affect it? In known cases what stage of transition is required before this kind of placement?

ETA: Is it possibly affected by why the person is incarcerated? For example, I would expect someone of any sex or gender to be more dangerous to the other prisoners if they're put in for assault in the first place.

Stage of transition may also affect the question of sports--as a potential future discussion, I wonder if something related to hormone levels may ultimately need to come into play, but competitive sports is definitely one of the stickier issues and I don't know that I have the answers, so I have no directed questions either.

Regarding rape shelters--can you tell me more about this? I do find it alarming and I would like to read more.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Ohhhhh brother.

(Or, to be apposite, "ohhhhhh gender-fluid sibling")


ETA: I note that you snipped a portion of my post in your riposte. Did that snipped portion perhaps ring a bell, or did it maybe touch a nerve?

The snipped section was irrelevant.

I notice that you didn't bother to respond with anything other than snide commentary.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Carefully read what you just wrote again.

How about you just provide your disagreement and reasoning for it, rather than being condescending?

 

[LondonJohn]

Different cultures certainly can have gender systems that are not strictly binary... but they all are predicated on sex. For those with more than two genders, they other genders are based on either ambiguity (androgyny) or on fertility (eunuchs, for example), or on people of one sex who wish to live and take on the roles of the opposite sex.

They are all dependent upon biological sex.

They're not. But your continued misapprehension is noted. Gender positions are predicated upon cultural factors, expectations and functions which are commonly associated with biological sex.

In no way are they "dependent upon biological sex".

The three bolded/italicised words in my first paragraph are fundamental and critically important when it comes to a proper understanding of a) the currently-understood definition of gender and gender identity, b) the difference between biological sex and gender, and c) the way in which biological sex and gender are in fact decoupled and noninterdependent.


Perhaps using a proxy for gender might help explain things better:

1) Dolls (non-military dolls) and dolls houses are commonly associated with young females.

2) Dolls and dolls houses are not commonly associated with young males.

3) However, it's (obviously) entirely feasible and possible (irrespective of how common) for young males to own and play with dolls and dolls houses.

4) The ownership of, and playing with, dolls and dolls houses is not dependent upon biological sex.

 

[Aber]

Stage of transition may also affect the question of sports--as a potential future discussion, I wonder if something related to hormone levels may ultimately need to come into play, but competitive sports is definitely one of the stickier issues and I don't know that I have the answers, so I have no directed questions either.

Male puberty confers a lifelong advantage.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I have questions about these facts. Starting with the caveat that I am not challenging them as factual. What I feel is a need to know more.

Regarding prisoners--does the data show that a transgendered prisoner in a prison for females is more likely to harm (especially sexually abuse) another prisoner than others there? Does stage of transition seem to affect it? In known cases what stage of transition is required before this kind of placement?

Yes, more likely to harm. Transwomen commit sexual crimes at the same rate as any other male, regardless of how far they've transitioned.

With respect to stage of transition... hard to say. The places that have policies allowing trans-identified people to choose which ward they are placed in are also operating on a "self-identification" policy. the UK, Canada, and California all have self-id in place for prisoners, which allows male-bodied prisoners who say they identify as women to be placed in the female ward, and there is no requirement for any degree of transition.

If the policy required either full genital surgery or chemical castration, I would have significantly less objection to males being incarcerated in shared spaces with females.

Stage of transition may also affect the question of sports--as a potential future discussion, I wonder if something related to hormone levels may ultimately need to come into play, but competitive sports is definitely one of the stickier issues and I don't know that I have the answers, so I have no directed questions either.

It varies. Some sports don't have as large a difference by sex - like dressage or other competitions of horsemanship or animal training. Some sports can be mitigated to a degree by hormone therapy - removing testosterone from the system can reduce many advantages that depend on lung capacity and stamina. But even after full transition, some differences remain. Males are larger, have denser bones, larger muscles, different hips (which affects running sports) and a host of other things. So for some sports, even after several years on hormone therapy, advantages still remain for males.

There is an argument to be made for people who take cross-sex hormones before the onset of puberty, because they will never develop the bone density and most other characteristics that affect athleticism. But that's another whole topic of debate, given that puberty starts around 12 for most people. There are concerns around consent and safeguarding when it comes to hormonally transitioning minors. That's outside the scope of this discussion.

I think for the most part, many people (including female people) are willing to accept transwomen who have undergone hormone therapy to reduce their testosterone levels to the normal female range. For professional sports, that's reasonable. For middle school, high school, and collegiate sports, that's a more complicated matter.

Regarding rape shelters--can you tell me more about this? I do find it alarming and I would like to read more.

https://www.womenarehuman.com/woman-in-homeless-shelter-threatened-by-male-transgender-resident/
https://www.womenarehuman.com/male-transgender-boasts-of-harassing-women-in-crisis-shelter/
https://www.womenarehuman.com/male-trans-pedophilia-rape-history-sexually-attacks-women-at-homeless-shelter-christopher-hambrook/
https://www.womenarehuman.com/women-in-shelter-forced-to-shower-with-man-who-identifies-as-transgender/

There's also a host of rape and domestic violence shelters in the UK and Canada that have lost funding because they are designated as "female only", and refuse to grant access to male-bodied people.

 

[LondonJohn]

The snipped section was irrelevant.

I notice that you didn't bother to respond with anything other than snide commentary.

Oh it was irrelevant, huh?

See....... I don't think it was irrelevant.

Let's take just one example. An average of 390 children between the ages of 1 and 4 dies each year in the USA in swimming pool (or spa) accidents. It's in fact the leading cause of unintentional death for children in that age group. And five times that number of children in that age group require emergency hospital admission for swimming pool accidents.

If your "logic" is to be followed through in this example, it's totally clear what needs to be done: all US households with children of those ages which have swimming pools or spas must be federally mandated to drain their pools/spas and fill them in with rubble and topsoil. And no swimming baths in the US should be allowed to give access to any children of those ages. It's a bloody disgrace, I tell you. Those young children deliberately and knowingly being placed in direct danger of death or serious injury in this way.

Or........ federal and state governments/legislatures in the US take any and all reasonable steps to mitigate and minimise the number of deaths and serious injuries to children aged 1-4, while stopping well short of the clearly-ridiculous policy of ordering the in-fill of residential pools of families with young children, and the banning of young children from all pools.


And yet you still do not (or cannot?) figure it out?


Anyhooo, we're right on the very fringes of a discussion about the validity of nonbinary identities, so that's where I'm going to leave my own contribution to this little piece of near-piste skiing. You may wish to have another crack at it if you like though, obviously.


https://www.edgarsnyder.com/statistics/swimming-pool-statistics.html

 

[Emily's Cat]

They're not. But your continued misapprehension is noted. Gender positions are predicated upon cultural factors, expectations and functions which are commonly associated with biological sex.

In no way are they "dependent upon biological sex".

The three bolded/italicised words in my first paragraph are fundamental and critically important when it comes to a proper understanding of a) the currently-understood definition of gender and gender identity, b) the difference between biological sex and gender, and c) the way in which biological sex and gender are in fact decoupled and noninterdependent.


Perhaps using a proxy for gender might help explain things better:

1) Dolls (non-military dolls) and dolls houses are commonly associated with young females.

2) Dolls and dolls houses are not commonly associated with young males.

3) However, it's (obviously) entirely feasible and possible (irrespective of how common) for young males to own and play with dolls and dolls houses.

4) The ownership of, and playing with, dolls and dolls houses is not dependent upon biological sex.

Geez. "Who can play with dolls without derision" is gendered and based on sex. That some people break those gender confines does not mean that the gendered roles and expectations are somehow NOT based on sex.

Dresses are gendered clothing. The gender expectation is that females wear dresses and males do not. If a male wears a dress, he is breaking the gendered norm. That does not in any way make that gendered norm and expectation somehow independent of sex.