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Non-binary identities are valid

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Matthew Best said:
Well that's the point. I don't know, and you don't know either, but you seem to have no problem drawing a conclusion from your ignorance!

Look, if 10,000 albums are produced in a year, and 1,000 of them are produced by women, should women automatically expect to receive 50% of the awards for record production?

I don't know what the actual figures are, but neither, as far as I can tell, do you.
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Actually, that kind of data is readily available, and while it's not 50-50, it still doesn't even remotely follow the skewed data in the nominations.

E.g., we know that women sung 32.6% of the songs in the pop genre, and the lowest represented genre was alternative with 11% of the songs being sung by women. (Source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/801266/gender-distribution-popular-songs-genre/ ) It's not 50-50, but it's a far cry from the nominations in the Grammys, which have only 7.6% women in Album Of The Year for example.

We also know that a lot more are actually liked by the public. As of 2019, women sung 21.7% of the songs in the Hot 100 chart, for example. (Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/caitli...dy-annenberg-gender-equality/?sh=338d392b5f81 ) Yet, again, that's not even remotely represented in the 7.6% nominations in the Grammys.

For producers, sure, only about 5% of the music producers are women (source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/801248/share-producer-music-industry-us-gender/ ), but the Grammys nominations for best producers are only HALF that percentage.

Which feeds into what I was saying about it working as a disincentive. If even in the best case scenario you're only half as likely to get recognition as a guy, that doesn't exactly motivate as many women to go into that kind of career.

But, anyway, the data is readily available. Don't assume that if you can't be assed to actually base your assertions on any real data, the same applies to everyone else.

Matthew Best said:
Also, please try not to be so rude.
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Considering the sheer nonsense of what you've been arguing, trust me, that's already me trying to tone it down.
 
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I think gay rights movements were as much about being left alone as much as not having to hide who they are.
 
I think there’s a subtle difference between being left alone and being respected
 
dirtywick said:
I think there’s a subtle difference between being left alone and being respected
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Sure, I can even go with the latter. It's still far from an analogy to recent demands basically asking that women get forced to compete against men in sports or removal of gender categories in music awards, so some non-binary people don't feel offended by the split. I don't remember gays making any such demands. Do you?
 
xjx388 said:
It doesn't.

[snip]

I mean, I'm human -a social animal. What others think of me is somewhat important. I want to be viewed as the caring, empathetic and intelligent human being I see myself as. I really don't want to cause offense to anyone. I'm willing to compromise. But I'm not willing to submit to absurdity simply because someone calls me a bigot unless I do submit.

So yeah, I do care a little, but not enough to bend to unreasonable demands.
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Well, it sounds like you’ve made the decision that the convenience of using your system of pronouns is more important to you than being rude, a bigot, or whatever else. Congratulations. Most people don’t have that level of honesty or self-awareness.
 
Upchurch said:
Well, it sounds like you’ve made the decision that the convenience of using your system of pronouns is more important to you than being rude, a bigot, or whatever else. Congratulations. Most people don’t have that level of honesty or self-awareness.
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So, browbeating?
 
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Upchurch said:
Well, it sounds like you’ve made the decision that the convenience of using your system of pronouns is more important to you than being rude, a bigot, or whatever else. Congratulations. Most people don’t have that level of honesty or self-awareness.
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See, I can’t win.

I’ve explicitly stated that I don’t want to offend. I can be open and honest, with the intention of having a frank discussion on a sensitive topic with a goal of reaching understanding and compromise.

But at the end of the day, I either submit to what I view as absurdity or I’m “rude, a bigot, or whatever else.” There’s no attempt to convince me it’s not absurd, no acknowledgement of the validity of MY feelings or “lived experience.” Conform or be cast out.

Luckily for me, I really do think the absurdity of the ask will soon be recognized as such. The compromise pronoun will be “they,” and I’m cool with that. I’m also cool if I’m wrong, being viewed as some kind of throwback from a less civilized era. At the end of the day, I just wanna live while I’m alive and I want the same for everyone else.
 
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HansMustermann said:
Actually, that kind of data is readily available, and while it's not 50-50, it still doesn't even remotely follow the skewed data in the nominations.

E.g., we know that women sung 32.6% of the songs in the pop genre, and the lowest represented genre was alternative with 11% of the songs being sung by women. (Source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/801266/gender-distribution-popular-songs-genre/ ) It's not 50-50, but it's a far cry from the nominations in the Grammys, which have only 7.6% women in Album Of The Year for example.

We also know that a lot more are actually liked by the public. As of 2019, women sung 21.7% of the songs in the Hot 100 chart, for example. (Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/caitli...dy-annenberg-gender-equality/?sh=338d392b5f81 ) Yet, again, that's not even remotely represented in the 7.6% nominations in the Grammys.

For producers, sure, only about 5% of the music producers are women (source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/801248/share-producer-music-industry-us-gender/ ), but the Grammys nominations for best producers are only HALF that percentage.

Which feeds into what I was saying about it working as a disincentive. If even in the best case scenario you're only half as likely to get recognition as a guy, that doesn't exactly motivate as many women to go into that kind of career.

But, anyway, the data is readily available. Don't assume that if you can't be assed to actually base your assertions on any real data, the same applies to everyone else.



Considering the sheer nonsense of what you've been arguing, trust me, that's already me trying to tone it down.
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Thanks for providing the information
Edited by zooterkin: 
<SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
 
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HansMustermann said:
Sure, I can even go with the latter. It's still far from an analogy to recent demands basically asking that women get forced to compete against men in sports or removal of gender categories in music awards, so some non-binary people don't feel offended by the split. I don't remember gays making any such demands. Do you?
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No I agree with you in regards to sports and some other things. But I think it's comparable to pronoun choice, you don't have to respect their views on it but I don't think it's unreasonable for them to want people to.
 
HansMustermann said:
So, browbeating?
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Yes. Because it's really all about elites keeping lower class people in line. Browbeating is the purpose and the point.

"Knowing the right pronouns to use" = "knowing the right fork to use," in an earlier era.
 
Upchurch said:
What are you talking about? You did win. I can't argue against people not giving a damn.
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“Not giving a damn,” is not a productive conversation. I haven’t won anything, really. You are obviously judging me and I don’t think that’s fair. Not Without a discussion, at least.

Why should I give a damn?

Are my feelings and experiences invalid?
 
Does non binary mean the refusal to be labelled as male or female?
If so then yeah, **** labels.
If not then I should look into it more, though the term non-binary does kind of mean that?
 
Upchurch said:
What feelings and experiences have you had concerning non-binary people?
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I think I made that clear, but to review:

I think there’s a heavy element of narcisssism in the non-binary experience, as evidenced by the plethora of labels/pronouns. It’s highly ideosyncratic what each person decides applies to them and completely unwieldy in everyday usage.

Why should I buy into that?
 
Myriad said:
"Knowing the right pronouns to use" = "knowing the right fork to use," in an earlier era.
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On the upside, it's considered de rigueur to ask which fork to use these days, so to speak.

On the downside, there are dozens of possible forks.
 
xjx388 said:
I think I made that clear, but to review:

I think there’s a heavy element of narcisssism in the non-binary experience, as evidenced by the plethora of labels/pronouns. It’s highly ideosyncratic what each person decides applies to them and completely unwieldy in everyday usage.
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Do you know any non-binary people?

xjx388 said:
Why should I buy into that?
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Empathy, kindness, making life a little nicer, and it costs you nothing.
 
Upchurch said:
Do you know any non-binary people?


Empathy, kindness, making life a little nicer, and it costs you nothing.
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I know exactly one non-binary person. They are my absolute favorite karaoke partner -an awesome singer and all around person . I would rather sing Karaoke with this person than anyone else. They and I have discussed this whole thing for hours. They and I have come to an agreement. We enjoy each other’s company. We have a lot in common. The rest don’t matter.
 
xjx388 said:
I know exactly one non-binary person. They are my absolute favorite karaoke partner -an awesome singer and all around person . I would rather sing Karaoke with this person than anyone else. They and I have discussed this whole thing for hours. They and I have come to an agreement. We enjoy each other’s company. We have a lot in common. The rest don’t matter.
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Why are you using gender neutral pronouns? Isn't that completely unwieldy? How do you even remember all that?
 
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