Non-binary identities are valid

[arthwollipot]

Rather than responding directly to anybody in particular at this point (which I feel would be a fruitless endeavour), I would simply ask you: why do you care? What is it to you how or why someone identifies as nonbinary? Just use the damn pronouns and let people be who they want to be. That's it. It's that simple.

 

[Ziggurat]

Rather than responding directly to anybody in particular at this point (which I feel would be a fruitless endeavour), I would simply ask you: why do you care? What is it to you how or why someone identifies as nonbinary? Just use the damn pronouns and let people be who they want to be. That's it. It's that simple.

Which pronouns? There’s a plethora of them now, many of which I don’t know or remember.

As for why do I care, that’s an ironic question to ask. There’s a phrase which encapsulates the current zeitgeist in this regard: you will be made to care. The pushback is in no small part because many of us do not want to be made to care.

 

[arthwollipot]

Which pronouns? There’s a plethora of them now, many of which I don’t know or remember.

Most of which are used by a vanishingly small number of people. Few nonbinary people would object if you used they/them. If in doubt, ask.

I can't believe that this is still a thing.

 

[d4m10n]

Rather than responding directly to anybody in particular at this point (which I feel would be a fruitless endeavour), I would simply ask you: why do you care? What is it to you how or why someone identifies as nonbinary? Just use the damn pronouns and let people be who they want to be. That's it. It's that simple.

I've no problem whatsoever with using they/them pronouns. It's a fairly small concession—requiring a tiny amount of mental effort—and it flows naturally from typical English usage in cases where we don't know the sex or gender of the persons of whom we speak.

My questions remain unanswered, though. I'm getting the sense that you think I should be (a)shamed for even asking...

 

[Ziggurat]

Most of which are used by a vanishingly small number of people. Few nonbinary people would object if you used they/them. If in doubt, ask.

I can't believe that this is still a thing.

If *I* am asked to use he/she/they/it, I will likely oblige though I might on occasion forget. I will not announce my pronouns because that is stupid, and I will assume pronouns of others unless told them. I can’t believe that doesn’t suffice. But for some reason, it doesn’t.

 

[arthwollipot]

My questions remain unanswered, though. I'm getting the sense that you think I should be (a)shamed for even asking...

And likely will continue to remain unanswered, because I suspect that the questions as posed are unanswerable.

As for feeling ashamed, well, the way you're asking is coming across as a little bit enbyphobic. Not violently so, but a little bit.

Like that word? I think I just made it up. Enby is a shorthand that some NonBinary folk use for themselves.

 

[arthwollipot]

If *I* am asked to use he/she/they/it, I will likely oblige though I might on occasion forget.

It is okay to forget occasionally. As long as you acknowledge that and try harder in the future.

I will not announce my pronouns because that is stupid...

You may have noticed that I have announced mine, and I am as cishet as they come. It's not stupid, and I look forward to more people doing it.

and I will assume pronouns of others unless told them.

In the most part you will have no problem with this. But if you're not sure - if you find yourself in a situation like with me and my drag queen coworker - it's best to ask.

I can’t believe that doesn’t suffice. But for some reason, it doesn’t.

It will suffice in most situations. Possibly even the vast majority. Just be aware, and be considerate. That's all anyone is asking.

 

[Belz...]

Would it do any good?

Well, clarifying the terms you use and the concepts you're trying to explain definitely sounds like it would make the conversation more productive.

Say that you are an American.

Yuck!

I don't know if this is true, but this is just an example. I keep referring to you as a Canadian, and asking you how life is in Canada. You keep insisting that you are American, not Canadian, but I don't appear to be listening. When you press me on it, I tell you that America doesn't exist. How much of this would you take before you started to get annoyed?

I'd get annoyed on the first go, but that also wouldn't erase the fact that I'd be American.

Now multiply that by about a million times for nonbinary people.

Can you explain to me why a trans person's identity is somehow more valid than an American's, or a Christian's?

Yeah it does. Absolutely it does. The Greeks had four different words for it.

How is that relevant? I'm not talking about how each person views love or how they experience it. I'm talking about the definition. The meaning of the word we all use to communicate. Now apply that to the qword "gender".

I am saying that, and it is not a mistake.

Yes it is. Typical and atypical have nothing to do with whether it's valid. Nothing at all.

I'm left handed. That's atypical. It's entirely valid.

 

[Belz...]

You may have noticed that I have announced mine

I never announce mine anywhere, and somehow people pick up exactly which pronouns are appropriate. Huh.

 

[Joe Random]

"I want to think of myself as <x>".
-- good on ya. No complaints and who cares what I think.

"I want you/society to treat me as <x>".
-- now it gets messy and you're actively placing demands on my behavior.

BTW - my pronouns are "Your/His Majesty". Please respect when discussing.

 

[TragicMonkey]

To sum up:

All the Impacts on Binary Persons from the Existence of Nonbinary Persons:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. There might be embarrassment over using incorrect pronouns.


Is that it? Because that's not even new, I'm sure almost everybody has mistaken a binary man for a binary woman and vice versa at some point in their lives. Yes, it's an embarrassing mistake to make. But people get over it.

 

[d4m10n]

And likely will continue to remain unanswered, because I suspect that the questions as posed are unanswerable.

Please see the OP, though, and notice that I'm trying to understand the stance put fwd by activist enbyphiles.

I'm curious to know what "valid and real" should be taken to mean in this context. If "valid" merely means "that which ought be validated" then okay that's a question of personal values. But "real"...? I've no idea.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

 

[Robin]

Rather than responding directly to anybody in particular at this point (which I feel would be a fruitless endeavour), I would simply ask you: why do you care? What is it to you how or why someone identifies as nonbinary? Just use the damn pronouns and let people be who they want to be. That's it. It's that simple.

Three points here:

1. It is good to be able to understand others, especially people who are vulnerable in society.

2. Following a procedure without understanding the underlying concepts is a really good recipe for making mistakes as I have found through years of IT support.

3. I would also like to know where I stand in all of this, if anywhere. Having been a gender outsider for decades one would think that some of this would make sense of my place in society, but really it is just another group where I am an outsider.

 

[cullennz]

This will probably come across more harsh than I mean, but why am I supposed to care what some other persons chosen gender is, unless they happen to be close Whanau?

 

[Robin]

"I want to think of myself as <x>".
-- good on ya. No complaints and who cares what I think.

"I want you/society to treat me as <x>".
-- now it gets messy and you're actively placing demands on my behavior.

BTW - my pronouns are "Your/His Majesty". Please respect when discussing.

I think the thing that Your Majesty has overlooked is that the demands placed on us about how we behaved to each other is a thing called 'society'.

Incidentally, I feel uncomfortable using "Your Majesty" as I have always of it as a term of derision.

 

[angrysoba]

In Japan there is a common superstition that blood types are predictive of personality types. Suppose you have one bloodtype, but feel that the description of the associated personality does not fit you at all and you recognise yourself more in the description of another blood type.

People do that in Japan. "I'm A, but I'm so outgoing that I really should be O!"

They generally don't argue that they are merely biologically A, but have O "gender" or whatever the equivalent would be.

I wonder where the analogy gets us. Does it suggest that people who are trans are buying into a superstition about what it means to be the opposite sex?

Or are the non-binary people right for rejecting gender as a category, in the same way that people might reject blood type determining their personality?

 

[Joe Random]

I think the thing that Your Majesty has overlooked is that the demands placed on us about how we behaved to each other is a thing called 'society'.

Incidentally, I feel uncomfortable using "Your Majesty" as I have always of it as a term of derision.

Hence the comment 'it gets messy'. People wanting to do/be what they want when it doesn't interact with anyone else should be totally free (even encouraged) to do so. When it involves others then it's no longer an automatic 'go for it' answer, and must be hashed out. If I claimed to have a rare psychological condition where I didn't feel comfortable wearing clothing my work might want to have a sit-down about it before just letting me walk around the office starkers. Maybe there would be some way to accommodate, maybe there wouldn't. But it's a discussion which would have to happen and not simply end with me saying "but my personal identity is ...".

 

[caveman1917]

The term "gender" in these discussions refers to the way it it used in feminist writing and cultural anthropology and refers to everything that is commonly associated with a distinction between men and women, but does not refer to any biological difference.

[everything to do with men and women] - [biological sex] = [gender]

So just to be clear: You are claiming that doctors assign "everything to do with men and women" except biological sex to newborns?

Do you even know what doctors do, or what they learn in med school? Hint: it has to do with the biology of humans, and nothing to do with philosophizing about who should like trucks and who should like dolls.

 

[theprestige]

I would simply ask you: why do you care? What is it to you how or why someone identifies as nonbinary?

Forget about how or why. What is it to me that someone identifies as non-binary? Does it affect the quality of their work? No. Does it affect their degree of education or experience? No. Does it affect the nature of my attraction to them (if any)? No. Does it affect whether they can use the ladies' bathroom if they want to? No.

 

[cullennz]

Rather than responding directly to anybody in particular at this point (which I feel would be a fruitless endeavour), I would simply ask you: why do you care? What is it to you how or why someone identifies as nonbinary? Just use the damn pronouns and let people be who they want to be. That's it. It's that simple.

I couldn't give a rats **** what some randoms gender is.

So why am I supposed to remember to use stupid weird pronouns around them?

This give and take stuff works both ways.

I am happy referring to a trans women as she if they aren't a ****

But i am not going to make the effort to remember who is "vis", or "xyr", or "hir", or "pers". Or "them"

For a start I have been taught through my entire life calling someone "them" is disrespectful.

This is just stupid