Non-binary identities are valid

[arthwollipot]

Meanwhile, policemen and firemen and airmen and postmen are standing by, utterly unperturbed.

You mean police officers, fire fighters and pilots, right?

 

[d4m10n]

You mean police officers, fire fighters and pilots, right?

Nope. I meant what I said, oddly enough.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

 

[arthwollipot]

Nope. I meant what I said, oddly enough.

Okay, I will be charitable and assume that you are merely ignorant of the way gendered job descriptions are disrespectful of nonbinary people, rather than malicious.

 

[Belz...]

Transgender and nonbinary are different things.

I know that, but there's an obvious connection. Plus since we're talking about the nature of gender as well, transgenderism will be on the menu.

To some people, it is.

No, it isn't. Biological sex is not a subjective feeling. It's a fact.

And you erasing their identity is not on.

Please don't do that. Don't pretend that disagreeing with someone "erases" anything.

Yes, you're starting to understand.

What I understand is that "gender" doesn't actually mean anything. It used to be closely related to sex to the point of being equivalent, but now the only people who can't define it are the ones who insist it's distinct.

 

[d4m10n]

Okay, I will be charitable and assume that you are merely ignorant of the way gendered job descriptions are disrespectful of nonbinary people, rather than malicious.

I will charitably assume that you are missing my point entirely, rather than willfully feigning ignorance.

 

[theprestige]

Okay, I will be charitable and assume that you are merely ignorant of the way gendered job descriptions are disrespectful of nonbinary people, rather than malicious.

If you wanted to be charitable, you'd assume he was using an analogy to point out transman is no weirder or more verboten than policeman, and that he didn't need a condescending passive-aggressive lecture on whatever you imagine the finer points of social justice to be.

Weren't you just in another thread complaining about how slapfights over terminology were ruining a perfectly good discussion?

Just let it go, man. Not every post has to be a siren call for the terminology police. I promise you that if I ever have to write an important article or paper on transsexuality, I'll be sure to research the proper terms first so that I can avoid giving offense while putting my ideas across.

 

[angrysoba]

I cannot understand what it is like to be you, but I can understand what it is like to be me. I am not a bat.

Then how does anyone know what it is like to be a man or a woman, particularly if that is not their biological sex?

 

[d4m10n]

Then how does anyone know what it is like to be a man or a woman...?

Not to mention what it's like to be neither a man nor woman, which requires subjective understanding of both.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Then how does anyone know what it is like to be a man or a woman, particularly if that is not their biological sex?

How would anyone know what it's like to be their biological sex, for that matter? You can't distinguish between two sensory inputs if you can't experience at least one of them in isolation from the other. Unless you can change your sex you have no means to distinguish "these are the feelings that arise from being of sex A" from all feelings from other causes.

 

[angrysoba]

How would anyone know what it's like to be their biological sex, for that matter? You can't distinguish between two sensory inputs if you can't experience at least one of them in isolation from the other. Unless you can change your sex you have no means to distinguish "these are the feelings that arise from being of sex A" from all feelings from other causes.

Indeed. Then that poses a difficulty for anyone claiming that gender is a feeling.

 

[Belz...]

How would anyone know what it's like to be their biological sex, for that matter?

The same way someone knows what it is to be six feet tall without knowing what it is to be five feet tall.

 

[Chanakya]

Sci fi offers an interesting perspective on this, as on most things. No doubt there are other instances, but I was thinking of Ursula le Guin's alien ambassador, who can become either male or female come mating season (and who's neither at other times), and who gets turned on by his (its?) human-from-earth counterpart.

 

[TragicMonkey]

The same way someone knows what it is to be six feet tall without knowing what it is to be five feet tall.

Not a good analogy: most people who are six feet tall have been five feet tall at some point in the past. And also people can simulate height changes by standing on objects.

How do you feel being carbon-based? Distinguish those feelings that come from being carbon-based alone, don't bring in any feelings that all the other elements cause. Remember: just looking for feelings, not descriptions of functionality.

 

[Belz...]

Not a good analogy: most people who are six feet tall have been five feet tall at some point in the past.

True but too shortly to have a solid experience of it.

And also people can simulate height changes by standing on objects.

That doesn't simulate this very well.

 

[TragicMonkey]

True but too shortly to have a solid experience of it.



That doesn't simulate this very well.

Mmmm hmmmm. Well, feel free to try to defend your analogy that sex is like height. I'm still wondering what feelings you have that arise solely from your being whatever sex you are, and from no other sources, and how you tell.

 

[angrysoba]

True but too shortly to have a solid experience of it.



That doesn't simulate this very well.

No. The analogy isn’t worth pursuing and it doesn’t illuminate anything.

If sex is a biological set of characteristics then we don’t need to describe it in terms of how it feels.

 

[TragicMonkey]

No. The analogy isn’t worth pursuing and it doesn’t illuminate anything.

If sex is a biological set of characteristics then we don’t need to describe it in terms of how it feels.

Especially since, as was my point, it's impossible to determine how it feels.

 

[arthwollipot]

I know that, but there's an obvious connection. Plus since we're talking about the nature of gender as well, transgenderism will be on the menu.

I mean through normal thread drift sure, but it's important to remember that though there may be a connection, the two are quite distinct and what can be said about one cannot necessarily be said about the other.

No, it isn't. Biological sex is not a subjective feeling. It's a fact.

"Male" can describe both "biological sex" (which for the purposes of this discussion I will assume is a real thing and defined accurately) and gender identity. In the case of biological sex, it is as you describe. But again, don't conflate the two.

Please don't do that. Don't pretend that disagreeing with someone "erases" anything.

You literally said that male is not a gender identity. How does that not deny the validity of someone whose gender identity is male?

What I understand is that "gender" doesn't actually mean anything. It used to be closely related to sex to the point of being equivalent, but now the only people who can't define it are the ones who insist it's distinct.

Excellent! As I said, you're starting to understand. Gender does not have an objective definition, and means different things to different people.

Then how does anyone know what it is like to be a man or a woman, particularly if that is not their biological sex?

It's up to every person to decide for themselves what it is like.

Not to mention what it's like to be neither a man nor woman, which requires subjective understanding of both.

Why?

 

[angrysoba]

It's up to every person to decide for themselves what it is like.

But this in itself is an arbitrary declaration.

 

[arthwollipot]

But this in itself is an arbitrary declaration.

At least partially, yes.