Noam Chomsky - Right Wing Media = Nazis

[sugarb]

I think that it is mainly about the propaganda machine. And it is because of the propaganda machine that very powerful words, like nazi and racist, have lost their meaning.

I think the point may be that, historically, propaganda is more powerful when people are not content, and I think that we can see that's probably more true than not if we look carefully at our own country, and the what I'm beginning to see as falsehoods being portrayed by the media.

On network television, there is competition between news outlets, for example. Some will claim one outlet is "conservative", while others complain about another being "liberal", and so it looks as though we really do have a right and a left, a conservative and a liberal movement, when in fact I don't think that we do at all. Even the most liberal of news outlets barely cover the serious liberal social issues that we spend decades arguing about. It is rare to see even our most "left" politicians arguing in favor of certain things, such as marriage for homosexuals. Even on our "left", they carefully speak of "partnerships", leaving a rigid religious value firmly in place. In all reality, there is very little division of church and state...and while "the media" seems for the most part to blame that, as an example, on conservatives, how often do we see "the media" outlets and owners and advertisers pushing for a true liberal agenda? Not very. Or our politicians. Rarely.

While it has, I admit, been surprising to me, it does begin to look as though there is a dominance of media, corporations, and business incentives taking over American politics, and those interests are more represented than the interest of the electorate. If you think about it, the loudest voices we hear, from either side, come from people who can probably in no way relate at all the the average American. We have Hollywood on one side, mega corporations on the other, sometimes they meet in the middle for a common interest, but rarely, rarely does the average person have say beyond a vote (which I would argue isn't truly free, since one has to be very, very wealthy just to get on the ticket...and the two major parties will back whomever they choose, regardless of public opinion, really) and an occasional interview on a local news station (television or radio). Sometimes your average Joe may get lucky enough to be featured on a "man on the street" skit, and made a fool of...but aside from those few things, it seems to me that government is very, very far removed from the citizens. Unless we're talking about the courts or prison, in which case the government likes to be very involved with us.

 

[leftysergeant]

Out of this environment Hitler organized what was essentially a private military. I see no such dynamic occurring here.

So far. The outlaw militias of the 1980s have not gone away, nor has the mental health of their membership improved.

For there are certain traits to the right wing brand of the Limbaugh nexus that are compatible ideologically with fascism:

- the vision of a nation in decline, a lost glory - a tarnished purity.
- a vision of national rebirth through a return to first principles (the phoenix, or eagle rather, rising from the ashes)
- a list of identifiable culprits responsible for the decline of the nation: in this case liberals. Note the particular attention to internal threats: the liberal plan to destroy American tradition, the illegal immigrants siphoning the system like parasites. There is a strong strain of scapegoating already. THere is a certain sense that liberals exist outside the acceptable realm of political discourse - that they are also outside of American tradition. And so you have major figures selling books like "Treason" - which show this mindset in exquisite detail.
- a rather narrow political doctrine that is repeated endlessly by major figures in the movement, the grassroots of which accepts uncritically
- a martial reverence and general emphasis on force in maintaining national prestige.

And the howling monkey right would be happy to see Obama fail, even if it takes America down into a serious depression unrivaled in history, just to be able to say "We told you so," and use the desperation of the people to build a dystopia that would rival Germany in 1933, only with nukes this time.

But on the fringes there is an active group (the minutemen, various militias, stormfront, etc) that reject democracy and forsee force as the only way to save the nation (the Turner Diaries crew).

And with the rise of the Tea Baggers, they may have found an open door.

 

[Skeptic]

The problem with finding "similarities" between conservatives and nazis are the same as finding "similarities" between liberals and communists. OF COURSE tons of similarities exist. But tons of similarities exist between ANY two objects or movements.

Obama is similar to a writing desk (both have a brown color, both send out letters to the public, both are bigger than a breadbox and smaller than a car, ...); the democratic party is similar to Scientology (both have an ideology, both have hollywood celebrities that support it...), etc., etc., etc.

Proves nothing. And saying they are not just "Similarities" but "Disturbing similarities" or "important similarities" is really a way of saying "these are the similarities I decide to focus on out of millions that exist, because I hate those guys and want them to look bad by claiming they're similar to some nefarious group".

 

[Skeptic]

Use the desperation of the people to build a dystopia that would rival Germany in 1933, only with nukes this time.

Which reminds me: what do you think about Iran's mullahs getting the bomb?

 

[Skeptic]

When Bush pursued policies that made him unpopular, the anger of the voters was proof of the people rising up against the corrupt, Nazi-like Republican president. But now that Obama is doing the same (as every president must if he is to get anything done), the anger of the voters is proof of an evil Nazi-like Republican sedition.

 

[quixotecoyote]

When Bush pursued policies that made him unpopular, the anger of the voters was proof of the people rising up against the corrupt, Nazi-like Republican president. But now that Obama is doing the same (as every president must if he is to get anything done), the anger of the voters is proof of an evil Nazi-like Republican sedition.

Nuh-UH!

When Bush pursued policies that made him unpopular, the anger of the voters was proof of radical un-American borderline traitorous tendancies. But now that Obama is doing the same (as every president must if he is to get anything done), the anger of the voters is proof of the people rising up against a corrupt, empty suit, quasi-marxist radical leftist.

Ok. Your turn again.

 

[Skeptic]

I must say, I agree with both of us....

 

[leftysergeant]

Which reminds me: what do you think about Iran's mullahs getting the bomb?

Malesh!

We survived eight years of a brain-damaged sociopath with access to The Football. Why should I worry more about better-educated and more rational men than he having some say over the use of such power?

 

[leftysergeant]

When Bush pursued policies that made him unpopular, the anger of the voters was proof of the people rising up against the corrupt, Nazi-like Republican president. But now that Obama is doing the same (as every president must if he is to get anything done), the anger of the voters is proof of an evil Nazi-like Republican sedition.

We didn't show up with weapons, didn't shut down meetings of opponents, didn't post videos that only a drooling moron would believe showing supposed proof that the Republicans had goon squads working with them like the DirtTea Baggers did Carnahan.

Face it, you are stuck with the Dick Armey and Glenn Beck and Rushblob types in your camp.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Malesh!

We survived eight years of a brain-damaged sociopath with access to The Football. Why should I worry more about better-educated and more rational men than he having some say over the use of such power?

BDS is apparently still alive. How tragic.

DR

 

[Whiplash]

When Bush pursued policies that made him unpopular, the anger of the voters was proof of the people rising up against the corrupt, Nazi-like Republican president. But now that Obama is doing the same (as every president must if he is to get anything done), the anger of the voters is proof of an evil Nazi-like Republican sedition.

You've got it. The simplest method to arrive at this line of thinking is observe the following rules:

1) the Republicans are always wrong
2) see 1.

 

[leftysergeant]

BDS is apparently still alive. How tragic.

DR

You say that like it was a bad thig.
The Shrub was a recognizeable sopciopath in 1999, he remains a sociopath in 2009.

 

[Cynic]

There is a reason he mentioned the Nazis. They are the best known example of a totalitarian regime arising out of a democracy.

Bingo. For a 'bot, Fiona, you reason pretty well.

While Skeptic is correct in pointing out that the ease of finding similarities between just about anything and anything else, such similarities are not therefore always insignificant. Further, pointing them out is not always cherrypicking to support a particular cause or bias.

History repeats itself and there's a good reason for it. Something bad happens and everyone says "never again!". Then later it becomes a little more abstract, and everyone says "we must learn from history to avoid mistakes in the future". Still later it's "well yes, but that was a different time, under different circumstances". Finally, everyone says "but unlike then, this action is completely justified!". And then of course it repeats, eventually ending with familiar calls of "never again..."

How can we learn from history and avoid mistakes in the future when doing so frankly is so unpopular? It doesn't help that as technology and population accelerate, we are increasing finding outselves living in times without precident. Even the Nazi's were living in times without precident. It's not enough to think about similarities, but to try to predict where something could be going.

Personally, I don't think the tea baggers will have enough momentum to do anything. They certainly haven't done anything so far, and seem to be content to try to make sure no one else does either. Hardly the mark of an uprising in the making. Our new era of unprecidented rapid communication to the masses cuts both ways, allowing shockingly fast organization, but equally quick reaction. Part of what allowed such things in the past was the ability to spread the word you wanted while keeping people in the dark about what you didn't want.

Anyway, yeah, Chomsky is correct to wonder about such things. How else can we avoid repeating our mistakes if we don't at least try to analyze? Sorry, I don't do brevity either.

 

[Darth Rotor]

History repeats itself and there's a good reason for it. Something bad happens and everyone says "never again!".

Only the naive.

Anyway, yeah, Chomsky is correct to wonder about such things.

Indeed, he often raises thorny questions.

How else can we avoid repeating our mistakes if we don't at least try to analyze?

Who is this "we" Kemo Sabe?

 

[Skeptic]

(About Iran getting nukes: )

Malesh!

I suppose you mean the Arabic word, which means something like, "Whatever!" or "Who cares"?

So why are you worried about the Republicans creating a "1933 Nazi-Germany style dictatorship with nukes"?

That's exactly what Iran would be.

 

[Darth Rotor]

(About Iran getting nukes: )



I suppose you mean the Arabic word, which means something like, "Whatever!" or "Who cares"?

So why are you worried about the Republicans creating a "1933 Nazi-Germany style dictatorship with nukes"?

That's exactly what Iran would be. If you don't care about one, why should you care about the other?

The Persians are over there. It's part of why I don't sweat their nuclear capability (since I assess it as a deterrent, somewhat similar to the Israeli deterrent development in the sixties) though I was glad to see some progress this morning on their cutting a deal to pass their enrichment process through Russia and keep their nuke program focused on energy industry. If that is where this is going, of course.

They could also use their nuke program for blackmail and extortion/protection racket tactics, as the North Koreans do.

 

[Brainster]

Anyway, yeah, Chomsky is correct to wonder about such things. How else can we avoid repeating our mistakes if we don't at least try to analyze? Sorry, I don't do brevity either.

People who compare X to the Nazis are not maximizing the evil of X, or minimizing the evil of the Nazis. What they are doing is puffing themselves up as the moral equivalent of those who resisted the Nazis. "Oh, look at me, I'm so brave and courageous, just like the members of the White Rose Society."

 

[Cynic]

People who compare X to the Nazis are not maximizing the evil of X, or minimizing the evil of the Nazis. What they are doing is puffing themselves up as the moral equivalent of those who resisted the Nazis. "Oh, look at me, I'm so brave and courageous, just like the members of the White Rose Society."

On the other hand, some people take Godwin's "law" so seriously that they'd even invoke it in a discussion about Nazis. It borders on treating them as mythical, as if it not only can't happen again, but never really happened in the first place. Well, it did happen and there are examples in the past that are similar and there will be genuine examples in the future. Of course, that will only be seen in retrospect since everyone will have had their Godwin's Law Blinders on beforehand.

 

[Darth Rotor]

On the other hand, some people take Godwin's "law" so seriously that they'd even invoke it in a discussion about Nazis. It borders on treating them as mythical, as if it not only can't happen again, but never really happened in the first place.

Like the Holocaust?



I'll get my coat ...

 

[Skeptic]

You've got it. The simplest method to arrive at this line of thinking is observe the following rules:

1) the Republicans are always wrong
2) see 1.

Now that the democrats -- with a Black president, no less -- are in power, dissent is no longer the highest form of patriotism. It is now the highest form of racism.