No such thing as explosions in outer space? Just implosions?

[Alkatran]

But not all of the shots were from inside the ships. They might as well just say "They were imagining the explosion noises and that's what we heard"

I want an alternate ending to the 6th part where they run into the force field and Luke turns to the dark side.

 

[Wudang]

The star trek panel sparks bother me, too. Who the hell designed that thing? The enemy shoots at the ships and 20 people get fried because the console they're at decides to explode "OH NO! UNDER ATTACK! SELF DESTRUCT!"

Yep, they can remodulate the deflector grid to produce a directed tachyon stream but they can't fit a 3 amp fuse?

 

[Ziggurat]

They did not explain why Emperial Storm-troopers cannot hit the broad side of a planet, even if it stands still, however.

Reminds me of the old unanswerable question: who would win in a fight between storm troopers (who can't hit anything ever) and nameless star trek redshirts (who always get killed in any engagement)? We may never know...

 

[Jekyll]

The explosion of Alderan in SW is particularly silly: This is an entire inhabited planet, so it must be more or less Earth-sized. Even given that some weapon could impart enough energy in a single shot toblow up a planet (without the recoil sending the Death Star into the next solar system, or tearing it apart ), the shock waves would need many hours to travel across the planet, and the actual disintegration would take days.

Hans

The 'equal and opposite' reaction I think you're refering to only applies to momentum not energy ~ the man who dropped the bomb on hiroshima wasn't launched into space by doing so.

[mad scientist]Also if you could trigger a sufficently large pressure increase in the core (perhaps by turning the solid iron centre of the earth into a plasma?) you should be able to rip the planet to pieces in the hours it takes the shockwave to move to the surface. [/mad scientist]

I havent seen the film yet, but I'm sure they use a magic ray which could do all this.

 

[Art Vandelay]

They did not explain why Emperial Storm-troopers cannot hit the broad side of a planet, even if it stands still, however.

They're clones.

Jekyll

I havent seen the film yet, but I'm sure they use a magic ray which could do all this.

Ah, but if it's a light ray, then energy is equal to momentum, so your distinction between the two does not apply.

Alkatran

But not all of the shots were from inside the ships. They might as well just say "They were imagining the explosion noises and that's what we heard"

I suppose one can also ask why no one seems to notice the guy with a camera.

 

[Jekyll]

Ah, but if it's a light ray, then energy is equal to momentum, so your distinction between the two does not apply.

In that case they're probably firing fusionable materials at the planet and using the lazer to trigger the reaction or the death star is held up by sky hooks. I know what my money is on .

 

[LW]

They did not explain why Emperial Storm-troopers cannot hit the broad side of a planet, even if it stands still, however.

Don't know about stormtroopers, but at least Cylons have a perfectly valid excuse: do you think you would hit anything with only one eye that bounces around like a ping-pong ball?

 

[mgidm86]

Well, in sci fi you can do anything but my point was they blow the crap out of the inside of the ship, they have stuff flying all around and people getting killed without breaking the outer hull. In order to do significant damage to the inside you are going to have to do more than significant damage to the outside first.

If I give my computer or monitor a couple of good whacks, I bet I can do significant damage to the inside without damaging the outside much, if at all. Bet I could break some crackers too

I do agree though that it would be tough for people to die in situations such as described. Maybe the laser or plasma or what-have-you that hits your ship causes a short circuit in the electrical systems, which causes your poorly designed econo-class ship's dashboard to explode, sending a cigarette lighter into your eye, causing you to steer your ship into a....sumthin. It is pretty silly now that I think about it. heh.

 

[Iamme]

I am reading all the posts above, with interest. it does sound like the caller perhaps heard that explosions are not quite the same as here on earth and then perhaps someone informed him that perhaps strong gravitational forces at such locations as the sun and maybe Jupiter, pull explosions back inwards, and somehow all this morphed into the belief that there are only implosions. Lucky for him, he didn't have to give his name and address, when he called in.

 

[Hellbound]

Well, in sci fi you can do anything but my point was they blow the crap out of the inside of the ship, they have stuff flying all around and people getting killed without breaking the outer hull. In order to do significant damage to the inside you are going to have to do more than significant damage to the outside first.

Not to defend the way the movies do it (science is not a priority in the Star Wars series), but it is quite possible to do signifigant damage to an interior without much to the exterior. This becomes more relevant as armor gets thicker/stronger/more rigid. Do a web search on HESH rounds (High Explosive Squash Head). I think the British military uses them currently. They're basically soft lead, high-velocity tank rounds that are designed to flatten against the armor of enemy tanks. That transfers the momentum of the round to the tank, and can flip it to its side (rare) or cause any loose objects in the interior to become ballistic projectiles (the primary purpose, take out the crew).

In any case, it is not only possible to damage the interior without damage to the outside, in many cases it is preferrable to trying to drill through heavy armor.

 

[Vagabond]

If I give my computer or monitor a couple of good whacks, I bet I can do significant damage to the inside without damaging the outside much, if at all. Bet I could break some crackers too

I do agree though that it would be tough for people to die in situations such as described. Maybe the laser or plasma or what-have-you that hits your ship causes a short circuit in the electrical systems, which causes your poorly designed econo-class ship's dashboard to explode, sending a cigarette lighter into your eye, causing you to steer your ship into a....sumthin. It is pretty silly now that I think about it. heh.

I am sure you can name a few things with a shell just hard enough to withstand damage from the mallet but will transfer enough energy to the inside to break a very fragile interior. Nothing more fragile than your monitor tube. However, on the flagship of the federation, it would be protected against such things. Particularly in areas were people would be directly impacted. On a modern warship the fire control is under the waterline in the center of the ship. On the Enterprise it is hanging out in the open on top where it makes an easy target. Fine for shooting a tv show but absurd for any real combat.

 

[Vagabond]

Not to defend the way the movies do it (science is not a priority in the Star Wars series), but it is quite possible to do signifigant damage to an interior without much to the exterior. This becomes more relevant as armor gets thicker/stronger/more rigid. Do a web search on HESH rounds (High Explosive Squash Head). I think the British military uses them currently. They're basically soft lead, high-velocity tank rounds that are designed to flatten against the armor of enemy tanks. That transfers the momentum of the round to the tank, and can flip it to its side (rare) or cause any loose objects in the interior to become ballistic projectiles (the primary purpose, take out the crew).

In any case, it is not only possible to damage the interior without damage to the outside, in many cases it is preferrable to trying to drill through heavy armor.

Well, in the case you name the armor itself is much stronger than the interior and the interior and not the armor is the focus of the attack. In a starship it would be the opposite. The best way to stop a starship is to vent it into space and kill the crew. You would use weapons that would do the maximum damage to the hull as possible. Also the ship itself would be a huge prize. You would be trying to do as little damage as possible to it while subduing the crew. Which is something else they rarely do in the shows. A tank is not a good comparison with my example.

 

[Soapy Sam]

They did not explain why Emperial Storm-troopers cannot hit the broad side of a planet, even if it stands still, however.

Hans

Hans- this is due to coriolis force from the spin of the Death Star. As you know, Stormtrooper lasers use special high mass photons with a value of c around 300 feet / second. Nobody at Imperial Stormtrooper College ever heard of leading your target.

My major astonishment is that no starships have seatbelts.
I know they all seem to have internal gravity or inertial compensators, so you would think they could arrange to have that keep them in their seats. Since Enterprise accelerates to Warp 8 in about four seconds, it should be able to crash into a planet without noticing the deceleration.

 

[Alkatran]

Yes, whenever a ship gets hit on star trek, the "inertial dampeners" go offline for some reason. COME ON. I can understand letting the ship shake so the crew knows what's going on, but people are falling down!

Come to think of it, why the hell didn't they just design missile to RAM the enemy ship, get inside, THEN explode?! MUCH MUCH more damage.

(In fact, if we ever get to see a space battle, chances are they'll just be launching lots of tiny sharp pieces at each other (frag?). Explosions don't work nearly as well in space.

 

[Vagabond]

Inertial dampeners are a sci fi way of doing something impossible so you can have a tv show. They screw up everything.

The only weapon I ever saw used which was even partially feasible was on the one episode where the Borg actually cut a part of the ship out and captured it. They didn't do the bridge obviously because that would have been the end of the show. But, in actual battle if you did this to the bridge the battle would be over.

 

[Hellbound]

Well, in the case you name the armor itself is much stronger than the interior and the interior and not the armor is the focus of the attack. In a starship it would be the opposite. The best way to stop a starship is to vent it into space and kill the crew. You would use weapons that would do the maximum damage to the hull as possible. Also the ship itself would be a huge prize. You would be trying to do as little damage as possible to it while subduing the crew. Which is something else they rarely do in the shows. A tank is not a good comparison with my example.

Actually, I'd say it is a good example precisely for the reasons you stated. Venting of the ships atmosphere being the major threat, it would be a safe assumption to state that starships desigged for war would put a lot of effort into strengthening the outer shell. Also, as others here have mentioned, compartmentalization would be extensive to limit the amount of internal volume exposed to vacuum should a hull breach occur. I don't see how it is as unfeasible or unrealistic a comparison as you make it out to be.

Much like modern day tanks, it's a different way to achieve a kill. Tanks such as the U.S. M1A1 use depleted uranium penetrators to punch trhough tough outer armor; HESH warheads dispense with that and attempt to get crew kills through kinetic energy. Both are viable attack strategies, although the effectiveness of either depends on many other factors.

 

[Vagabond]

Actually, I'd say it is a good example precisely for the reasons you stated. Venting of the ships atmosphere being the major threat, it would be a safe assumption to state that starships desigged for war would put a lot of effort into strengthening the outer shell. Also, as others here have mentioned, compartmentalization would be extensive to limit the amount of internal volume exposed to vacuum should a hull breach occur. I don't see how it is as unfeasible or unrealistic a comparison as you make it out to be.

Much like modern day tanks, it's a different way to achieve a kill. Tanks such as the U.S. M1A1 use depleted uranium penetrators to punch trhough tough outer armor; HESH warheads dispense with that and attempt to get crew kills through kinetic energy. Both are viable attack strategies, although the effectiveness of either depends on many other factors.

Armor only matters if it can have a significant impact on the weapons likely to be employed. They don't armor naval warships anymore because the missles will blow the crap out of them anyway. A starship unlike a tank could conceiveably be armored without an impact on it's speed or manuverability.

Compartmentalization would almost certainly be used, but in sci fi they often do this with force fields so they can have the huge corridors and rooms unimpeded by barriers for filming. However, this also has downsides as it limits movement by damage control parties and might limit damage control information.

We are primarily talking sci fi here so most of this is speculation but in my opinion ships in space would be so vulnerable as to make combat between them too devastating to be undertaken. Another big problem I have with Star Trek is you take a ship and put a few hundred of the greatest minds of countless star systems on it and then fight. This would never happen, it's complete fantasy.

 

[Aerich]

Do a web search on HESH rounds (High Explosive Squash Head). I think the British military uses them currently. They're basically soft lead, high-velocity tank rounds that are designed to flatten against the armor of enemy tanks. That transfers the momentum of the round to the tank, and can flip it to its side (rare) or cause any loose objects in the interior to become ballistic projectiles (the primary purpose, take out the crew).

In any case, it is not only possible to damage the interior without damage to the outside, in many cases it is preferrable to trying to drill through heavy armor.

While in principle you're right, in detail I'm afraid you're wrong...

HESH rounds (according to knowledge just learned through googling) aren't soft lead. Rather, they're thin-shelled rounds with an unusually high load of explosive compound. They're designed to squash against the target and fuzed to detonate at the point in time when the explosive load has spread out enough to maximize the amount of force that will be transmitted directly into the armor.

Rather than transforming loose interior objects into projectiles, the intent is to cause spalling of the armor. If you've ever whacked a piece of stone on one side and seen a piece fly off on the other side, that's spalling. When forcing armor plate to spall with a HESH round, due to the energies involved, pieces of armor plate will depart from their original locations at a rather alarmingly high velocity, achieving the goal of making life unpleasant for man and machine inside the armor hull.

So, the momentum of the projectile is used only to squash the projectile against the armor, increasing the surface area of armor subjected to direct force from the explosion. The explosion does the real work.

 

[richardm]

Another big problem I have with Star Trek is you take a ship and put a few hundred of the greatest minds of countless star systems on it and then fight. This would never happen, it's complete fantasy.

But the stated purpose of the Star Trek missions is to bimble about the universe doing Sciencey / Exploratory things. So it would surely make sense to have great minds aboard.

Unfortunately, there are nasty elements around the place who like to have fights, so the ships have to be prepared to defend themselves.

Even the Beagle carried cannon.

 

[Hellbound]

While in principle you're right, in detail I'm afraid you're wrong...

HESH rounds (according to knowledge just learned through googling) aren't soft lead. Rather, they're thin-shelled rounds with an unusually high load of explosive compound. They're designed to squash against the target and fuzed to detonate at the point in time when the explosive load has spread out enough to maximize the amount of force that will be transmitted directly into the armor.

Rather than transforming loose interior objects into projectiles, the intent is to cause spalling of the armor. If you've ever whacked a piece of stone on one side and seen a piece fly off on the other side, that's spalling. When forcing armor plate to spall with a HESH round, due to the energies involved, pieces of armor plate will depart from their original locations at a rather alarmingly high velocity, achieving the goal of making life unpleasant for man and machine inside the armor hull.

So, the momentum of the projectile is used only to squash the projectile against the armor, increasing the surface area of armor subjected to direct force from the explosion. The explosion does the real work.

I stand corrected

That's what I get for basing my info on a non-technical source, though. Same idea, differing mechanism