No more Roe v. Wade

I'm thinking that if Roe vs. Wade is overturned, organized crime will rejoice because RU486 (the abortion pill) will quickly become a very profitable source of income.

Actually, I had hoped the pill would make the abortion debate moot with no doctor to shoot.

I have heard a number of Democrats make that claim on TV, and it stuns me. It shows they don't understand their opposition, which means their handlers prolly shouldn't let them near a TV show on this issue. To pro-lifers, "En-soulification" occurs at the moment of conception, so a drug that prevents a fertilized egg from implanting is killing a human just as surely as aborting it does.

Hence they believe it is just as wrong.

Given that, why would the heads claim they thought the issue would evaporate with the appearance of this pill?
 
What about me? Am I still allowed to be pro-choice if I support gun ownership? :rolleyes:
I thought we'd already established that, since I'm (mildly) pro-choice and (fairly strongly) pro-gun ownership. And everyone knows I'm the gold standard for logic and reason... :wink:

Seriously, you can be whatever you want.* I was just trying to expose some logical inconsistencies, the main one being that people can claim to find a right to abortion in the Constitution, but not the right to carry a weapon, when it seems to me the Constitution is silent on the first, and pretty damned explicit on the second.

* Well, jeeze, thanks, BPSCG...
 
I thought we'd already established that, since I'm (mildly) pro-choice and (fairly strongly) pro-gun ownership. And everyone knows I'm the gold standard for logic and reason... :wink:

Seriously, you can be whatever you want.* I was just trying to expose some logical inconsistencies, the main one being that people can claim to find a right to abortion in the Constitution, but not the right to carry a weapon, when it seems to me the Constitution is silent on the first, and pretty damned explicit on the second.

* Well, jeeze, thanks, BPSCG...

What, you want logical consistency with political views?

There are people who proclaim themselves "pro-life" but support capital punishment.

There are people who claim to be for "smaller government," but have no problem with regulating who you sleep with, when, and how, using publicly funded schools to push their religion, or cracking down on free expression....Not to mention abortion.

You can find logical inconsistency in political views everywhere...It's hardly limited to abortion rights & gun control.
 
Well, first, my life is not the same thing as stories of aliens simply because the presence of aliens has not been established by physical, measurable, or repeatable evidence.
Which at best moves the stories closer to the realm of possibility.

The existence of illegal abortions as a source of gang income has been established, it is not a very new idea. It goes on many places today in other countries. So rather than a tale of aliens, my story is more similar to someone giving supplemental testimony in court, supporting physical evidence: "Yes I knew this person and they were maimed". True, I might be telling the truth or lying.
Further "they" might be telling the truth or lying.

I could post a link from someone else who wrote a book about it, but how would that be more valid than personal experience?
I don't know you. Further I don't know the people who you are talking about. Your testimony would not be allowed in a court of law for logical reasons.

Aliens have not been established by evidence, so if I spoke of seeing them you would be right to question that.
Skepticism would dictate that we not accept hearsay (you didn't actually participate in these did you?). Further skepticism would dictate that I just not accept your word for it. The aliens are just an extreme to demonstrate the folly of accepting such evidence. That Aliens are less likely to be real doesn't validate what you are saying.

But meet the 18th st gang:
http://www.nagia.org/18th_street.htm

They would certainly welcome a new business opportunity in a community near you. Sort of an appeal to emotion? Maybe. Politics seems that way though, always part emotion.
How does this prove your thesis?

Even such a loaded topic like abortion - murder is exactly what the law says it is, no more or less. We put people to death for crimes, and send people off to war, neither is called murder. So murder is a legal definition. Some kinds of abortion are not defined by law as murder, so where is the consistency of people who are against abortion but for war or capital punishment?
Not a clue where you are going with this.

Politics is simply not purely discovered by being skeptical...
No but the truth is. I'm sorry but this is the same kind of clap trap I hear from my Bishop. "God can't be discovered by being skeptical."

...it is also a product of emotions and feelings.
I am a very emotional person. However I realize that the truth isn't found in emotion. We should be wary of our emotions. Emotions lead to all sorts of bad things like mob justice.

Part of those feelings are bound up in our personal experiences of life. I might disagree with Luke for instance, but I respect his personal experiences and their contribution to his values.
I'm prepared to respect your personal experiences. So far as it relates to this topic you have only given us second hand information. But what is even more important than that it is still anecdotal.

Look, you art trying to establish a proposition:

Life was ugly for poor women who had abortions then.
There are all sorts of problems with this statement. What is "ugly"? Is life not "ugly" for poor women today? How did the life of a poor woman before Roe living in America compare to a poor woman living in the 3rd world?

Assuming we accept this value "ugly" and BTW, I don't have any idea what it means in this context. I can speculate. How do you prove "ugly"? Well you offer us anecdote. But here are the problems, how do the exeriences of 2 or 3 individuals represent the majority? How do we know that these individuals told you the truth? How do we even know that they existed?

If I tell you that I know several poor women who opted to not have abortions and gave their children up for adoption and were very happy that they did not have abortions will that prove something?

If I tell you that I know several poor women who had legal abortions and they are very depressed and despondent for having done so will that prove something?
 
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quote:
Originally posted by RandFan
...I don't know you. Further I don't know the people who you are talking about. Your testimony would not be allowed in a court of law for logical reasons...

...Skepticism would dictate that we not accept hearsay (you didn't actually participate in these did you?). Further skepticism would dictate that I just not accept your word for it.



My point is that on the forum there is no 'skeptical' difference between hearsay or anything else. How can anyone possibly claim to know the difference? Yet you claim there is a 'higher standard' of evidence. If I claimed I personally saw an abortion and it was "so and so", tell me why that is any different than hearsay? Your search for truth is limited (if not doomed) by the very media in which we convey our thoughts.

Additionally, I am just saying that yes, politics can be approached by skeptical thought, but it is more like art and contains other elements. I'm sure I am not the first person to ask "what is a politics forum doing on a skeptical site?".
quote:
Originally posted by RandFan

No but the truth is. I'm sorry but this is the same kind of clap trap I hear from my Bishop. "God can't be discovered by being skeptical."


LOL, You willprobably hate me writing this then:
Politics is even less rational than religion, and has better illusions to entertain us.
quote:
Originally posted by RandFan

I am a very emotional person. However I realize that the truth isn't found in emotion. We should be wary of our emotions. Emotions lead to all sorts of bad things like mob justice.


We cannot escape being human. Emotions are also a quality that allows appreciation of beauty. Beauty is an idea we judge by. If we removed emotions from our lives we could never hope to arrive at the truth of anything.
quote:
Originally posted by randfan

I'm prepared to respect your personal experiences. So far as it relates to this topic you have only given us second hand information. But what is even more important than that it is still anecdotal.


humm, yes, I'm apparently missing the point where the place I lived and people I personally know are anecdotal and therefore have no place in forming or expressing my political opinions.

Do politics really hold a potential for objective truth? How is that position any different from a religious one?

The best anti abortion argument I can see, is that we should promote a culture where life is valued, and this must include even the potential for life. I am merely saying that if overturning RvW is the meat of the religious agenda they better become experts in gang activity. It was that way before, and it seem illogical to think that given the same environment it would be any different now. To do the same thing and yet expect different results seems irrational.
 
In another instance, candidate Miers agreed to sit down with a group of abortion rights activists. Operation Rescue was staging regular protests at area abortion clinics, and the group of about 10 women who met with Miers wanted to know whether she supported a 1985 city ordinance that protected patients from harassment. Four of the women in attendance said in interviews that Miers was immovable.

"She said, well, I'm sorry, it's murder, and that's that," said Joy Mankoff, founder of a local women's political action network. "There was no room for any discussion."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/07/AR2005100701813_2.html
..
 
Elsewhere in Texas, conservatives on councils were voting to add language to city charters stating that life begins at conception. But once elected, Miers steered clear of abortion. Perhaps the most controversial symbolic action Miers took was to support a resolution asking Congress to amend the Constitution to ban flag burning. The vote was 11 to 0.

For the most part, Miers operated in the background, leaving her colleagues perplexed about her political ideology. She also had a tendency to switch stances on critical issues, a trait supporters said showed her thoughtfulness but that critics labeled indecision.

"We spent about 1,200 hours together and had in excess of 6,000 agenda items, and I never knew where Harriet was going to be on any of those items until she cast her vote," former council colleague Jim Buerger said. "I wouldn't consider her a liberal, a moderate or a conservative, and I can't honestly think of any cause she championed."
ibid
Is she's too squooshy? Or does she just need more exposure to thinking people in order to make a decision? A wolf in sheep's clothing? or a sheep in sheep's clothing? I dunno.

Give us our Supreme Court justices hot or cold, conservative, moderate, or liberal... but sheesh let them be intelligent and have convictions.
 
I know you're playing devil's advocate here, so this isn't directed at you. But what you're saying is that the possibility of injury or death to an innocent bystander outweighs the certainty of injury or death to a woman trying to defend herself.

Again - not thinking through the logicial moral ramifications of their position.

A more worthwhile point... but I believe it has a counter. Nontheless, I'm not inclined to erupt into a gun thread to argue a point that I don't hold myself.

Just making the point that "arriving at a different conclusion" <> "Not thinking"
 
A more worthwhile point... but I believe it has a counter. Nontheless, I'm not inclined to erupt into a gun thread to argue a point that I don't hold myself.
Fair enough. I came across an old thread I'd started once that asked, "When is having a closed mind about something okay?" I asked, if you've seriously challenged your belief in a certain position, and found it a valid position, and if you haven't seen/heard any new evidence or arguments to refute it in, oh, say twenty years, is it wrong to finally say, "Look, I've made up my mind on this issue, and if nobody has anything new to say about it, I'm not even going to listen any more"?

I feel that way about my position on abortion, and on gun control. I don't shy away from a discussion of either topic, but if I don't see anything new, I tend to gloss over what people write. Luke's link provided the first piece of new information I'd seen about abortion in a long time, and it only reinforced my already hard position on the issue.
Just making the point that "arriving at a different conclusion" <> "Not thinking"
Hmmm... "<>" means "is not equal to". If you could find some symbol that means "is not necessarily equal to", I'd agree.
 
My point is that on the forum there is no 'skeptical' difference between hearsay or anything else. How can anyone possibly claim to know the difference? Yet you claim there is a 'higher standard' of evidence. If I claimed I personally saw an abortion and it was "so and so", tell me why that is any different than hearsay? Your search for truth is limited (if not doomed) by the very media in which we convey our thoughts.
I would have to pointedly disagree with your premise. If you told me a story about yourself it might persuade me to a degree. It depends on your history on this forum and how I judged that history. In truth I don't know you that well but I would be willing to give you the benefit of the doubt based on what I know. However that still wouldn't prove your original thesis. But we don't even get that far. We still have 3rd party information and I'm sorry but I personally won't give that any credence because I have no idea as to the veracity of these other individuals. Sure, you are welcome to tell us how you formed your opinion but it simply isn't worth much more than that.

Additionally, I am just saying that yes, politics can be approached by skeptical thought, but it is more like art and contains other elements. I'm sure I am not the first person to ask "what is a politics forum doing on a skeptical site?".
I think critical thinking and skepticism should be applied to all areas. Politics especially. It's is a big complaint of mine that too many of us are led around like a cow with a ring in its nose. We have been indoctrinated to spew the rhetoric of our respective parties and we do so with such consistency like good little soldiers.

IMO, this is one of the most important forums here. It so demonstrates the flaw of human nature that causes us to abandon critical thinking. When politician "X" commits a crime our response is often dictated by our relationship with him according to politics. If he or she shares our politics we are more likely to defend that politician. If not we are far more likely to attack.

As it concerns enlightened, critical thinking 21st century individuals politics is the last frontier of woo-wooism.
Politics is even less rational than religion, and has better illusions to entertain us.
Please forgive me but it shouldn't. That it does speaks to the inability of many of us to challenge our own held world views. We should not question or embrace a any position or any political leader based on party affiliation.

We cannot escape being human. Emotions are also a quality that allows appreciation of beauty. Beauty is an idea we judge by. If we removed emotions from our lives we could never hope to arrive at the truth of anything.
Emphasis mine. There is something to be said for the importance of aesthetics and passion. These things are important. However we should be careful not to let passion rule our senses. Emotion is the tool of the demagogue and too often we make disastrous decisions when we do so. I'm sorry, I will have to disagree with you.

humm, yes, I'm apparently missing the point where the place I lived and people I personally know are anecdotal and therefore have no place in forming or expressing my political opinions.
Completely relevant as to your opinion. Just understand that we cannot put much weight into them.

Do politics really hold a potential for objective truth?
Of course.

The best anti abortion argument I can see, is that we should promote a culture where life is valued, and this must include even the potential for life. I am merely saying that if overturning RvW is the meat of the religious agenda they better become experts in gang activity. It was that way before, and it seem illogical to think that given the same environment it would be any different now. To do the same thing and yet expect different results seems irrational.
You seem to be appealing to logic? If one cannot come to an objective decision then what is the purpose of logic? I don't know if I agree with you or not but you are holding two positions that are not compatible. Should I use logic to judge your argument or emotion?

 
I am against abortion but, having been there twice myself, I would not be so arrogant as to presume to understand in the slightest what the factors are that propel a person toward that decision. That said, I would never presume to make a sdecision, by law or any other means, regarding a situation of which I am ignorant. Those that do make me shake my head in wonder.
 
I would never presume to make a sdecision, by law or any other means, regarding a situation of which I am ignorant. Those that do make me shake my head in wonder.
Not sure what you mean by that. If you mean that you can't make a decision about something that you haven't personally experienced, I have to disagree. Else, everyone who hasn't served in Iraq would have to shut up about it. I don't think that's what we want, and I somehow don't think that's what you meant.
 
Not sure what you mean by that. If you mean that you can't make a decision about something that you haven't personally experienced, I have to disagree. Else, everyone who hasn't served in Iraq would have to shut up about it. I don't think that's what we want, and I somehow don't think that's what you meant.

I meant for another person in this particular area. I am not saying that in all cases one has to experience something to decide on a course of action, I am saying that in this particular area, given my experiences, I believe that the person/persons in the belly of the beast have to be trusted to do the right thing for themselves, by themselves without outsiders who are, perforce, ignorant, presuming to decide for them.

Clearer?
 
The whole abortion debate is about nothing. Millions of fertilzed eggs that fail to implant are rinsed and flushed every month by sexually active women...it's how human biology works. Far more are lost this way than will ever be terminated by abortion. And yet I hear no wailing and gnashing of teeth over those "babies'" deaths.

The whole thing is ridiculous.
 
Hmmm... "<>" means "is not equal to". If you could find some symbol that means "is not necessarily equal to", I'd agree.

I can leave it at that... it's what I meant, basically.
 
I am against abortion but, having been there twice myself, I would not be so arrogant as to presume to understand in the slightest what the factors are that propel a person toward that decision.

Sigh...

Everyone's against abortion. Nobody ever says, "Gee, I have a couple of thousands of dollars burning a hole in my pocket. What can I do? Well, I could spend it all on the Chippendales or take a trip to Hawaii, or wait a minute, I've got a really fun idea: an abortion! I know! I'll just go out and get pregnant so that I can get an abortion and keep the embryo in a jar above my bed, looking for all the world like a raw oyster." This does not happen.
 
The whole abortion debate is about nothing. Millions of fertilzed eggs that fail to implant are rinsed and flushed every month by sexually active women...it's how human biology works. Far more are lost this way than will ever be terminated by abortion. And yet I hear no wailing and gnashing of teeth over those "babies'" deaths.

Running through a great deal of the anti-abortion movement is an undercurrent of an anti-sex movement. How much of the fuss is completely about abortion, and how much is about the sexual freedom that abortion potentially allows? In the past, getting knocked up meant stopping having casual sex, giving up the wild life, and settling down with the guy and becoming "normal", "decent", "traditional" people. Abortion is a way out of that. What was the end of the wild life for our grandparents' generation can be just a delay for a medical procedure today.

I'm not saying everyone who holds anti-abortion views is necessarily anti-sex, but I would be willing to venture that if you scratch the most militant activists you'll find people who disapprove of pre-marital sex, contraception, and the swinging single life, and possibly quite a bit of chauvinistic attitudes about women and men and how they ought to act.

Abortion is a concrete example of medical science and technology taking what used to be up to God, chance, or nature and putting control back into human hands. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, it is a big thing, and some people will always be uncomfortable with that.
 

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