No Fly zones over Libya?

[BeAChooser]

Where did you get this crap from?

The actual history?

If have you a specific challenge you'd like to make regarding what I stated about Kosovo, then make it. Don't hide behind vagueness.

 

[Virus]

The "actual history" according to who? I'm literally asking where you got this from.

 

[JihadJane]

Protecting civilians or western oil companies?

Wikileaks-released State Department cables from November 2007 and afterwards show the real reason for the mounting U.S. hostility to the Libyan government prior to the current civil war.

...

One State Department cable from November 2007 (Wikileaks reference ID 07TRIPOLI967) sounds the alarm of “growing evidence of Libyan resource nationalism” by the Gaddafi government. This was almost identical language employed by the U.S. and British governments against Iranian Prime Minister Dr. Mohammad Mossadegh when he nationalized Iran’s oil field in 1951. Mossadegh was overthrown by a 1953 CIA coup that restored the Shah to the throne. It allowed U.S. and British oil companies to re-take ownership over Iran’s oil until the 1979 revolution.

Condemning “Libyan resource nationalism” is diplomatic language. The U.S. government was furious that Gaddafi was moving to rein in and limit the power and profits of the western-owned oil giants that he permitted to come back into the country after George W. Bush in 2004 lifted economic sanctions against Libya.

The same cable refers to an angry speech that Gaddafi made in 2006 which was interpreted as a virtual act of war by the oil companies and the U.S. and western governments.

Gaddafi's speech included these unacceptable words: “Oil companies are controlled by foreigners who have made millions from them—now, Libyans must take their place to profit from this money.”

...

Another Wikileaks-released State Department cable from Jan. 30, 2009, (Wikileaks reference ID 09TRIPOLI71) discusses a January 2009 speech by Gaddafi, stating, “Muammar al-Qadhafi suggested that Libya and other oil exporting states could nationalize their oil production in view of sharply plummeting petroleum prices.”




Why the NATO powers are trying to assassinate Moammar Gaddafi
Protecting civilians or western oil companies?

 

[bikerdruid]

Protecting civilians or western oil companies?

that answer to that is just tooooo obvious.
plus, it seems to be about getting resources to al qaida, so that they can continue fighting (on other fronts too).
(apparently the rebels fighters in libya are al qaida.)
you can't have a war if the enemy runs outa bullets.

 

[Virus]

Why the NATO powers are trying to assassinate Moammar Gaddafi
Protecting civilians or western oil companies?

Brian Becker supports North Korea.

 

[Virus]

that answer to that is just tooooo obvious.
plus, it seems to be about getting resources to al qaida, so that they can continue fighting (on other fronts too).
(apparently the rebels fighters in libya are al qaida.)
you can't have a war if the enemy runs outa bullets.

 

[BeAChooser]

The "actual history" according to who? I'm literally asking where you got this from.

From all sorts of news articles from the time period in question. It was a topic which was thoroughly discussed back when the intervention in Kosovo and Serbia actually took place. Do I really need to identify the source of each claim for you? Are you that uninformed?

If not, then why don't you tell me which of the assertions I made that you specifically challenge, based on what you believe to be fact? And please note that it's my opinion, and only an opinion, that the reason for Kosovo and all it's lies was to keep the Cox Report and Chinagate off the front page? You know about those two topics, don't you?

 

[JihadJane]

that answer to that is just tooooo obvious.
plus, it seems to be about getting resources to al qaida, so that they can continue fighting (on other fronts too).
(apparently the rebels fighters in libya are al qaida.)
you can't have a war if the enemy runs outa bullets.

Saying the rebels' fighters are al Qaeda is quite a large exaggeration. After all, some of the leaders were members of Gaddafi's administration a few months ago. Others gained their skills fighting the Americans in Iraq.

 

[bikerdruid]

Saying the rebels' fighters are al Qaeda is quite a large exaggeration. After all, some of the leaders were members of Gaddafi's administration a few months ago. Others gained their skills fighting the Americans in Iraq.

there was certainly an indication, early in this 'war', that there was a really blurred distinction between the rebels and factions of al qaida.
perhaps i exaggerated the importance, or was mistaken.

 

[BeAChooser]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...up-its-role-in-Libya-air-war-due-to-cuts.html

Navy chief: Britain cannot keep up its role in Libya air war due to cuts

The British military intervention in Libya is unsustainable, the head of the Navy has said.

 

[Mycroft]

Wikileaks-released State Department cables from November 2007 and afterwards show the real reason for the mounting U.S. hostility to the Libyan government prior to the current civil war...

...

Conspiracy theory.

 

[HoverBoarder]

These two claims deserve comment.

First, if you think that protecting civilians from indiscriminate mass slaughter is all the UN is doing in Libya you are delusional. Back around March 5th Obama called for "regime change" in Libya. On March 21 he said our military wouldn't try to push Ghaddafi out … and then US and NATO forces began their campaign to ravage Ghaddafi's military forces and kill Ghaddafi. And that campaign is still going on. Obama said we'd "install a democratic system". Doesn't "install" imply toppling … something far more extreme than simply preventing mass slaughters of civilians?

And, second ...

We went into Kosovo because Clinton needed something to take the public's attention off the Cox Report (damning revelations about Chinagate). So the Clinton administration painted a lie about genocide (claimed hundreds of thousands were being killed when in fact only 1000s died and as many of them were Serbs as non-Serbs). And got the UN to intervene by painting another lie about Serb intransigence in dealing with Kosovo. The truth is that Serbs said no to a totally unreasonable demand that NATO troops be allowed access to all parts of Serbia, be hosted to a large extent at Serb cost, and be immune from any legal consequences for any improprieties. And when all was said and done, the US/NATO military actually lost the conflict with tiny Serbia's military so they switched to civilian targets, committing what should be viewed as war crimes. And the end result was real ethnic cleansing (this time conducted by our new, victorious allies, the KLA). And the democracy movement in Serbia was actually hurt by the bombing. And although Clinton said "I do not intend to put our troops in Kosovo to fight a war" that's exactly what his planners were busy preparing to do. And had he done that, NATO itself admitted after the war that the Yugoslav 3rd Army could have held out for weeks or even months. And we are still in Kosovo despite promises by Clinton to be out by Christmas years and years and years ago. The hypocrisy of the Bush hating, Clinton loving legions is starkly evident in Kosovo. And those same legions are now defending Obama no matter what he does. (And by the way, look how many Clintonites who were part of the Kosovo travesty are now members of the Obama administration … like the late Holbrooke.

I never took you for a CT'er.

Where did you get this from??

 

[BeAChooser]

I never took you for a CT'er.

Where did you get this from??

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7278375&postcount=1007

 

[BeAChooser]

http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs...ner-warns-obama-libya-will-violate-war-powers

06/14/11

House Speaker John Boehner, R-Ohio, sent President Obama a letter Tuesday afternoon warning him that the operation in Libya will be violating the War Powers Resolution by this Sunday, which marks the 90th day of U.S. military involvement in the country.

Boehner wants "a clear explanation of the legal standing under the War Powers Resolution," that Obama is using to justify continuing the operations behind Sunday.

The letter is below.

 

[Virus]

From all sorts of news articles from the time period in question. It was a topic which was thoroughly discussed back when the intervention in Kosovo and Serbia actually took place. Do I really need to identify the source of each claim for you? Are you that uninformed?

If not, then why don't you tell me which of the assertions I made that you specifically challenge, based on what you believe to be fact? And please note that it's my opinion, and only an opinion, that the reason for Kosovo and all it's lies was to keep the Cox Report and Chinagate off the front page? You know about those two topics, don't you?

First you said you got it from the actual history, then you said you got it from news articles.

Did the news articles say that genocide didn't happen? As you allege?

We know that serious crimes against humanity were taking place. British journalists for ITV captured shocking images of concentration camps at Trnploje. Since your memory of the media reports is so good, surely you remember the "man behind the barbed wire fence"?

 

[bikerdruid]

i do find it terribly entertaining when the right wingnuts argue among themselves.

 

[Virus]

Who are you calling a wingnut Bikerdruid? Didn't you just allege that America supplies ammunition to Al-Qaeda so that they can keep fighting them?

By the way, I'm neither left nor right wing. I'm an independent.

 

[BeAChooser]

British journalists for ITV captured shocking images of concentration camps at Trnploje. Since your memory of the media reports is so good, surely you remember the "man behind the barbed wire fence"?

Did you just forget that the Trnploje camp had nothing to do with the Kosova War? That camp was in Bosnia/Herzegovina and was photographed by the Britsh during the Bosnian War. You do understand the difference between the two conflicts, don't you?

And by the way ...

http://www.counterpunch.org/biglie.html

October 22, 1999

Genocide in Kosovo?

... snip ...

Whatever horrors they may have been planning, the Serbs were not engaged in genocidal activities in Kosovo before the bombing began. They were fighting a separatist movement, led by the KLA, and behaving with the brutality typical of security forces, though to a degree infinitely more restrained than those backed by the United States in Central America. One common estimate of the number of Kosovar Albanians killed in the year before the bombing is 2,500. ... snip ...

After the war was over, on June 25, Bill Clinton told a White House press conference that on Slobodan Milosevic's orders "tens of thousands of people" had been killed in Kosovo. A week before, from the British Foreign Office came the statement from Geoff Hoon that "according to the reports we had gathered, mostly from the refugees, it appeared that around 10,000 people [that is, Kosovar Albanians] had been killed in more than 100 massacres."

... snip ...

The NATO powers had plenty of reasons to rush charges of genocide into the headlines. For one thing, it was becoming embarrassingly clear that the bombing had inflicted no significant damage on the Serbian Army. All the more reason, therefore, to propose that the Serbs were collectively guilty of genocide and thus deserved everything they got.

Throughout the end of June and July there were plenty of press accounts running along lines similar to a July 4 dispatch in the New York Times from John Kifner with this sentence in its lead paragraph: "The bodies keep turning up, day after day, and are expected now to number 10,000 or more." On August 2 Bernard Kouchner, the UN's chief administrator in Kosovo, said that 11,000 bodies had already been discovered in mass graves in the province.

... snip ... Teams of forensic investigators from fifteen nations, including a detachment from the FBI, have been at work since June. To date they've examined about 150 of 400 sites of alleged mass murder.

There's still immense uncertainty, but at this point it's plain there are not enough bodies to warrant the claim that the Serbs had a program of extermination. The FBI team has made two trips to Kosovo and investigated thirty sites, containing nearly 200 bodies. In early October, the Spanish newspaper El País reported what the Spanish forensic team had found in its appointed zone in northern Kosovo. "The UN figures," said Perez Pujol, director of the Instituto Anatómico Forense de Cartagena, "began with 44,000 dead, dropped to 22,000 and now stand at 11,000." He and his fellows were prepared to perform at least 2,000 autopsies in their zone. To date they've found 187 corpses.

... snip ...

Although surely by now investigators would have been pointed to all probable sites, it's conceivable that thousands of Kosovar corpses await discovery. But as matters stand, the number of bodies turned up by the tribunal's teams is in the hundreds, not thousands, which tends to confirm the view of those who hold that NATO bombing provoked a wave of Serbian killings and expulsions, but that there was and is no hard evidence of a genocidal program.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1530781.stm

7 September 2001

A United Nations court has ruled that Serbian troops did not carry out genocide against ethnic Albanians during Slobodan Milosevic's campaign of aggression in Kosovo from 1998 to 1999.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0902-02.htm

September 2, 2004

Where are the bodies? Was the other big war of the last decade, Kosovo in 1999, triggered by bogus allegations as well? Another case of mass deception?

... snip ...

In alleged ethnic cleansing exercises by Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic, as many as 100,000 to 200,000 civilians were said to have gone missing or been killed in Kosovo, many of them buried in mass graves. Members of a Canadian forensic team to the Serbian province have come forward to label the numbers nonsense. No mass graves, they say, and, on both the Albanian and Serb sides, only a few thousand dead. A mockery of the numbers used to justify the war.

... snip ...


The latest person to debunk the genocide numbers is retired Vancouver homicide detective Brian Honeybourn, a member of the forensic team. He told The Ottawa Citizen this week that his nine-member group found mainly single graves, with a couple of exceptions being one of 20 bodies and another 11. He wonders how genocide charges against Mr. Milosevic can stand up. "It seems as though The Hague is beginning to panic."

Garth Pritchard, a Canadian filmmaker, accompanied the forensic team to Kosovo. "This was a massacre that never happened." He joined mission leader Brian Strongman in lambasting Canadian Louise Arbour, the special prosecutor for the tribunal that brought the charges against Mr. Milosevic.

http://iwpr.net/report-news/analysis-amended-kosovo-indictment-adds-little

30 Apr 05

... snip ...

Whether genocide charges will be levelled against Milosevic and certain of his subordinates for crimes committed throughout the territories of the former Yugoslavia remains to be seen. It looks likely such charges will not now be brought in relation to the atrocities in Kosovo.

... snip ...

Del Ponte's office has had two years to prepare the amendments to the Kosovo indictment, and as her office appears set to file additional indictments for alleged crimes in Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia, it looks likely that no genocide charges are to be brought against Milosevic for alleged atrocities in Kosovo.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=625

June 20, 2005

Rollie Keith, the retired Canadian military officer who served as a OSCE Kosovo Verification Mission observer in Kosovo in the 1990s said he never saw any evidence of genocide or ethnic cleansing involving Slobodan Milosevic and Serbian forces in Kosovo

http://www.aim.org/aim-column/clintons-kosovo-whopper/

September 27, 2006

Of all the whoppers told by former President Clinton in his Chris Wallace interview, perhaps the most outrageous was his claim that he was involved in “trying to stop a genocide in Kosovo…” In fact, Clinton’s bombing of the former Yugoslavia killed more people than died in this “genocide.”

So, do you need any more convincing? Or are you willing to acknowledge that maybe I know my history ... and you don't..

 

[Virus]

I acknowledge that you know how to post links from radical leftist and truther websites.

 

[BeAChooser]

I acknowledge that you know how to post links from radical leftist and truther websites.

Go ahead, Virus. Post a link or two from a source you consider reputable that shows the number of bodies that were found is any different than reported above. More than a couple thousand. And all Albanians, as opposed to being a mix of Albanians and Serbs. Bet you can't do it. In which case, how does that in any way qualify as a policy of genocide? Go ahead, prove to us that any Serb was charged with genocide in the Kosovo War. Bet you can't do it.