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No Fly zones over Libya?

angrysoba said:
You mean the right of Gaddafi to murder his citizens trumps the right of the citizens to be protected from outsiders or the right to intervene to protect them?

I say ******** to that.
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Nice sentiment, but...
It's an internal to the country affair, other than the greed of the oil companies passing on the price of the oil yet to be refined to us yesterday, and must be settled internally, no matter which way it goes.
We have interfered with, and destabilized Iraq, you may note.
 
FireGarden said:
Meanwhile, Gaddafi brings in more mercenaries to fight what was previously his own army?

There's no need for troops on the ground. Just prevent planes from reaching Gaddafi's area, and keep his airforce from bombing Libya. Shoot down helicopters that are straffing civilians.

Or do we just watch and, after who knows how many die, just wring our hands and say "never again". I still remember the response to Rwanda*. The response here would be easier: Libya is easier to reach and keeping warplanes out of the sky shouldn't take too much effort. That would weaken Gaddafi very significantly.

*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide#UNAMIR_and_the_international_community
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I agree. I think this would be low risk in terms of upsetting the general population or escalating and could prevent a humanitarian disaster.
 
FireGarden said:
Meanwhile, Gaddafi brings in more mercenaries to fight what was previously his own army?

There's no need for troops on the ground. Just prevent planes from reaching Gaddafi's area, and keep his airforce from bombing Libya. Shoot down helicopters that are straffing civilians.

Or do we just watch and, after who knows how many die, just wring our hands and say "never again". I still remember the response to Rwanda*. The response here would be easier: Libya is easier to reach and keeping warplanes out of the sky shouldn't take too much effort. That would weaken Gaddafi very significantly.

*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide#UNAMIR_and_the_international_community
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It has not nearly reached Rwanda levles yet.
 
Problem is outside interference might backfire;a lot of Libyans who would be happy to see Gahdaffi gone might well resent outside inteference in their affairs.
And would those who advocate this advocate the same if the Iranian Government used similiar measures agianst a popular movement?
 
Doctor Evil said:
If you mean who will actually do the work of enforcing no fly zones, assuming the UN endorses such a measure? I think we both expect that in that case the "international community" turns out to be very close to your home.
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Let the Luftwaffe and the Italian Airforce do it. They have a certain history in Libya.....
 
dudalb said:
Problem is outside interference might backfire;a lot of Libyans who would be happy to see Gahdaffi gone might well resent outside inteference in their affairs.
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That's one problem.
The second problem is if tribes attack Gahdaffi's forces, they're probably also fighting amongst themselves - or will be soon after Gahdaffi is disposed. That's not something a foreign intervention force should become involved. Think Iraq.

Gahdaffi may be bad, but that doesn't mean all the other factions involved are good. Several of them are probably quite nasty.

I think we should form a commitee to decide what to do. With a large, very diverse membership and a broad, poorly defined mission statement. By the time they work out a course of action, the dust will have settled.

FireGarden said:
There's no need for troops on the ground. Just prevent planes from reaching Gaddafi's area, and keep his airforce from bombing Libya. Shoot down helicopters that are straffing civilians.
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Missioncreep is the operative word here. If Gahdaffi circumvents the no-fly zone in some way, our politicians will either have to go in deeper or concede defeat. And they hate to admit defeat.

Or do we just watch and, after who knows how many die, just wring our hands and say "never again". I still remember the response to Rwanda*. The response here would be easier: Libya is easier to reach and keeping warplanes out of the sky shouldn't take too much effort. That would weaken Gaddafi very significantly.
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Rwanda was a mess to start with, and still is. Overpopulation, continued high populationgrowth and almost completely dependent on primitive agriculture. It's a recipe for the occasional bloody civil war. Until these people develop a more advanced economy, and/or reduce populationgrowth it will happen again and again.
 
I am not making any excuses for Gadhafi and his brutality, but to compare it to Rwanda or what used to be Yugoslavia in terms of violence is just plain over the top.
 
Darth Rotor said:
Let 'em play.

As I recall, my country was left mostly alone for 4 years while we had our bloody civil war. I'd like to allow a few more folk that option, if they'd care to exercise it.
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Good thing you focused on the American Civil War and not its war of independence (which would have muddied things given the French help). ;)

In any case I think it would be disastrous for "foreigners to meddle" here, particularly since the uprising appears to do very well on its own (the eastern half of Libya, including the majority of its oil producing sites, seem to be no longer under the control of Gadaffi).
 
angrysoba said:
You mean the right of Gaddafi to murder his citizens trumps the right of the citizens to be protected from outsiders or the right to intervene to protect them?

I say ******** to that.
Click to expand...
The achievement of a popular uprising unseating a ruthless dictator trumps "colonial Western Powers" interfering.
 
DanishDynamite said:
Good thing you focused on the American Civil War and not its war of independence (which would have muddied things given the French help). ;)

In any case I think it would be disastrous for "foreigners to meddle" here, particularly since the uprising appears to do very well on its own (the eastern half of Libya, including the majority of its oil producing sites, seem to be no longer under the control of Gadaffi.
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Who?

Also the only reason I would support an intervention is due to the weapons involved. Surely an attempted genocide during the Civil War wouldn't begin until an army marched the length to a city and began its rampage? They didn't have helicopter gunships or wonderful modern artillery or tanks. Things can get out of hand rather quickly.
 
FireGarden said:
Meanwhile, Gaddafi brings in more mercenaries to fight what was previously his own army?

There's no need for troops on the ground. Just prevent planes from reaching Gaddafi's area, and keep his airforce from bombing Libya. Shoot down helicopters that are straffing civilians.

Or do we just watch and, after who knows how many die, just wring our hands and say "never again". I still remember the response to Rwanda*. The response here would be easier: Libya is easier to reach and keeping warplanes out of the sky shouldn't take too much effort. That would weaken Gaddafi very significantly.

*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide#UNAMIR_and_the_international_community
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The eastern half of Libya is apparently already controlled by "the people". Let them have their own victory.
 
Perhaps but there is the problem of what will happen if the protestors run out of young men before gaddafi runs out of bullets.
 
dudalb said:
It has not nearly reached Rwanda levles yet.
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That's actually the point!

dudalb said:
Problem is outside interference might backfire;a lot of Libyans who would be happy to see Gahdaffi gone might well resent outside inteference in their affairs.
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It's a matter of whether outsiders can be trusted to do the bare minimum required. Rather than go in and set up some kind of government.

And would those who advocate this advocate the same if the Iranian Government used similiar measures agianst a popular movement?
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Both Iran and Gaddafi would consider a no fly zone an act of war. I think that Gaddafi is in a much weaker position when it comes to resisting such a thing. If there hadn't been so many defections, then the suggestion in the OP would easily turn into all out war. But Gaddafi is flying in foreign fighters. That's how weak he is. But an airforce could tip the balance in his favour -- or at least do a lot of damage before Gaddafi is stopped.

DanishDynamite said:
The eastern half of Libya is apparently already controlled by "the people". Let them have their own victory.
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They have won their own victory.
I don't want to see Gaddafi keep his promise of going down fighting. At least not while he has the ability to bomb cities.
 
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