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NLP (Neuro-linguistic programming)

The Skeptic's Dictionary has some info on NLP as well, a bit less "meaty" than the Wikipedia article, but still. The Skepdic article is not terribly positive about it.

I've been reading some self help litterature over the years, to learn how to deal with some problems. I think it's helped me about as much as one can expect, that is, somewhere between not at all and somewhat. I have come across NLP from time to time, but I have always been put of by the "success" mongerism and the downright silliness. Looking at it more systematically though, it has been the lack of emprical support and the rather severe criticism against it, some of which I've seen in older discussions on this forum, that has convinced me to stay clear of NLP.
 
I'm still not entirely convinced that Brown doesn't use NLP at all, if only just some of the same vocabulary. I wanted your opinions, and thank you for them though. And I don't, and never have understood the hostility of some posters here.
 
JM85 said:
I'm still not entirely convinced that Brown doesn't use NLP at all, if only just some of the same vocabulary. I wanted your opinions, and thank you for them though. And I don't, and never have understood the hostility of some posters here.
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I guess it depends on what you mean by 'use NLP'. I would not be at all surprised to learn that Derren Brown includes NLP techniques as part of the act, but only as set dressing or misdirection, not as the actual means by which he performs the trick.
 
I think mentalism often seems more impressive because spectators consider it more "real." They know magicians don't have real magical powers, but I'll bet many of them believe mentalists do have some kind of power--if not actual paranormal abilities (clairvoyance, etc), then at least some kind of very advanced psychological techniques like NLP. Of course mentalists are doing magic tricks just like magicians, but I have a feeling a lot of people find the former to be something more authentic.

zooterkin said:
I guess it depends on what you mean by 'use NLP'. I would not be at all surprised to learn that Derren Brown includes NLP techniques as part of the act, but only as set dressing or misdirection, not as the actual means by which he performs the trick.
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Exactly. NLP seems more impressive than what is probably actually going on.
 
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JM85 said:
And I don't, and never have understood the hostility of some posters here.
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Say what? Who exactly was hostile here?
Sure there are some threads where I see clear hostility (justified or not is another subject) but in this thread?
 
JM85 said:
Okay, I've read a couple books about NLP, and I'm still not sure what it is. NLP practitioners claim to use language patterns to change people's "models of the world" and it's supposed to make them think, and feel differently. At first NLP seems like nonsensical ramblings, but Darren Brown used it to do some pretty interesting tricks. I listened to some CDs that Richard Bandler recorded, and wasn't able to make any sense out of them. He's talking with music in the background, but it's not like hypnosis; he's just talking, like he's having a conversation. He says things that are supposed to make you feel confused, and that part works, but I didn't notice anything else.

It all seems like BS, but I'm curious to know more about it. Do you think there's any legitimacy to it?
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Derren Brown actually wrote a book that explains a whole lot.
If this sort of thing interests you, I highly recommend it.
 
JM85 said:
Okay, I've read a couple books about NLP, and I'm still not sure what it is. NLP practitioners claim to use language patterns to change people's "models of the world" and it's supposed to make them think, and feel differently. At first NLP seems like nonsensical ramblings, but Darren Brown used it to do some pretty interesting tricks. I listened to some CDs that Richard Bandler recorded, and wasn't able to make any sense out of them. He's talking with music in the background, but it's not like hypnosis; he's just talking, like he's having a conversation. He says things that are supposed to make you feel confused, and that part works, but I didn't notice anything else.

It all seems like BS, but I'm curious to know more about it. Do you think there's any legitimacy to it?
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It sounds like they took CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) and woo-ed it up.

Also they lack data.
 
JM85 said:
I'm still not entirely convinced that Brown doesn't use NLP at all, if only just some of the same vocabulary.
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Oh, he almost certainly uses some of the same vocabulary because some of the vocabulary isn't unique to NLP. He does not, however, use NLP techniques, nor does he claim to. That last bit is the bit you seem to miss.


JM85 said:
I wanted your opinions, and thank you for them though.
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You're welcome, but in some cases--mine included--they are not opinions. Some of us have extensive experience and/or knowledge of Brown's field. Some of us own all of his books.


JM85 said:
And I don't, and never have understood the hostility of some posters here.
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I haven't intended to be hostile, so I hope you haven't taken my posts that way. For the others, the hostility has been very minor, actually, and possibly more frustrated or sarcastic than hostile as others have suggested. Regardless, the information you want is in the thread even if you skip the posts you don't like.

jimtron said:
I think mentalism often seems more impressive because spectators consider it more "real." They know magicians don't have real magical powers, but I'll bet many of them believe mentalists do have some kind of power--if not actual paranormal abilities (clairvoyance, etc), then at least some kind of very advanced psychological techniques like NLP.
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Very true. This happens regardless of any disclaimers the performer may put forth, and some performers are very very miserly with their disclaimers.


jimtron said:
Of course mentalists are doing magic tricks just like magicians, but I have a feeling a lot of people find the former to be something more authentic.
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Yes and yes, though many mentalists take offense at the suggestion that their art is akin to magic.


Eddie Dane said:
Derren Brown actually wrote a book that explains a whole lot.
If this sort of thing interests you, I highly recommend it.
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Sigh. That's the book I didn't link to earlier.
 
JM85 said:
If Darren Brown doesn't use NLP, then how do you explain this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=befugtgikMg I think the legitimate part of NLP is about language effecting feeling's. Albert Ellis also writes about this in his books on REBT, but I don't even know if this is true. I mean, I feel more than think, so for some people it might be true. Could it be that some people's mid brain is more dominant than their neo cortex?
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Oh, come on, haven't you seen this trick done dozens of times, with different patter? Think of things Blaine has done, Penn&Teller, etc. Signed playing cards showing up in your wallet, hand writing or objects 'magically' changing in a sealed envelope held by the mark "The Whole Time!", etc. I'm misdirecting a bit here (we can't reveal tricks on this forum), but the family of techniques that Brown must have used here is pretty obvious, and has nothing to do with his patter, any more than Blaine's patter about having you think really hard about the card you selected has anything to do with how he makes it show up in your wallet, or written on his arm, in a sealed envelope, or whatever, or Penn's "reveal" of how he "really does" a magic trick has anything to do with the next bit where he makes your watch show up in a fish or cuts Teller in half or whatever the trick is.
 
JM85 said:
I'm still not entirely convinced that Brown doesn't use NLP at all, if only just some of the same vocabulary. I wanted your opinions, and thank you for them though. And I don't, and never have understood the hostility of some posters here.
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My youtube reply was well within the first thousand of the close to four thousand replies under that video. My lazy comment was pretty darn funny but you would rather get indignant than research the topic of humor you seem to lack instinctively.

If NLP worked we would be able watch our Dear World Supreme Leader use it on TV every day he glorified our lives with a speech.

If Brown could manipulate people one-tenth as well with NLP as you think don't you believe he would be doing more with his life than stage and TV shows?
 
I guess because Lior Suchard can bend a spoon without touching it, that is proof that telekinesis works, and because he or Luke Jermay can call a volunteer on stage during their Vegas acts, ask them to think of their first love, and then he reveals it to the audience (without the person writing it down or anything - no apparent way to transfer the information physically), this is proof that mind reading works. I mean, Jermay opened his act with the statement "I am a mind reader". Must be true.

Or maybe, just maybe, there is a super mundane and obvious way of doing these effects.

I don't like these performers much because, like Uri Geller, they pretend they have "real" skills when doing news interviews, and you end up with incredibly stupid articles being written about them like this. I recall a similar article about Blaine in some magazine, where the writer was convinced Blaine had some mystical supernatural power. And so you end up with threads like these.

edit: I don't think I'm revealing anything when I point out both the magicians above will sell you the information on how to perform their routines if you have enough dosh, and that they have acted as consultants to pretty big names in the business. I'll save you the 50 bucks and disappointment and just say it ain't supernatural secrets revealed in their products.
 
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Senex said:
If NLP worked we would be able watch our Dear World Supreme Leader use it on TV every day he glorified our lives with a speech.
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Not just that. Apperantly it doesn't take the resources of the supreme leader to do it. Anyone can with just a few days\weeks certification (depending on the institute).

You would think we would see things like law firms stating "NLP grads wanted"
or at least "NLP grad a plus"

You would think Bush would bother using NLP to interogate terrorists instead of torturing them, not only would it be more effective, it would be far less of a politcal emberassment.

You would think that every single law enforcement agency would study it to interogate criminals. And every single mob organization on earth would study it to learn how to fake through it.

The possiblities are endless and the cost is practically non existant.

Oddly enough, as I said before, over 40 years and nobody gives a hoot about this silly thing.
 
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