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NISTian black boxes - Oh, let me count the ways

Can someone laymanize OP for me? Generally speaking, what is this all about anyway?

You might say that it's about the difference between mathematics and physics. Numerical methods are iterative, and in order to claim you've solved some equations on a computer, you have to show that an error term can be made small enough to suit you, after having performed however many iterations it has taken to achieve this.

What if you run your computer for a week, through zillions of iterations, and your error term is still not suitably small? In other words, what if your numerical method won't converge?

Well, instead of buying a faster computer, waiting another week, trying to find a more efficient algorithm, etc., one thing you could do is to solve a similar problem, using equations that are similar, but still not the same.

In so doing, you are actually making different physical (as in physics) assumptions - i.e., you have changed the physics.

I am essentially putting NIST, and NIST'ians, on the spot by challenging them to quantify the differences between what the oiginal physics approach taken by NIST - which I believe is generally more realistic (contrary to what rwguin seems to believe) - and the one settled upon ('plan B', so to speak). Those that cannot be so quantified, I will continue to refer to as NBB's. These are analogous to religious "mysteries of the faith".

It seems apparent that such quantitative determinations don't exist - I don't recall them being convincingly demonstrated anywhere, though there may be some handwaving assertions that all is well. As I noted above, there's no footnotes in NCSTAR 1-6C, so the NBB's of 1-6C surely are not documented there.

I expect that, before all is said and done, there will be scores of instances of NBB.

Even "realistic" physics equations can (and generally will) have assumptions 'hidden' therein, that physicists are likely to forget about. Case in point - the basic wave equation for ideal stretched string! If your equation or equations are realistic 'enough', then they will have predictive power when experimentally tested. In the case of a WTC model, since so little of the forensic evidence was kept, just how are we supposed to know that there's any significant correlation between reality and NIST's models? (For floor elements, there wasn't much to keep. :-) But for columns, I will guess that creep was measurable or estimable. I'd appreciate it if knowledgeable engineers would inform us as to whether or not this is correct.)

Another point - which I don't particularly want to get into in this thread - is how do you know that even NIST'ian first choices which converged were adequate for the job? As sophisticated as it may have been, the computer modeling software still could not be used to predict the wall getting pulled in - it had to be added as an ad hoc assumption. That raises serious questions in my mind as to what other deficiencies were inherent in the entire NISTian enterprise.
 
In other words, it's really easy to be critical of others work, but much harder to do it better yourself.
 
Read The Trouble with Physics, if you really believe that physicists are perfectly adequate at rising above tribalism. I can assure you, the author comes to the opposite conclusion, and I concur completely.
String theory and NIST. Not the best analogy. The cool thing, people can use simple models to confirm NIST conclusions.




Goals of NIST, notice they do not address 9/11 truth fantasy ideas on 9/11
  • improvements in the way buildings are designed, constructed, maintained, and used;
  • improved tools and guidance for industry and safety officials;
  • revisions to building and fire codes, standards, and practices; and
  • improved public safety.
Tools, like string theory, were not needed to help with these goals. The NIST report process does not share the quagmire of sorting out string theory. That quagmire only exists in your mind and others. If you have some far out fantasy just present your case and stop bringing up a report that has nothing to do with the implications of CT produced by your imagination.

Please don't explain the string theory book, I understand what you are trying to say; but you were wrong. You can’t mention the string theory junk and wave your hands and say the same problems are found in NIST; in the real world you present the evidence of the interaction similar to the things you are saying NIST is guilty of. And then show how this dynamic made NIST to miss the actual goals. Good luck presenting evidence instead of your fantasy ideas about how NIST interaction did not live up to your CT ideals.
 
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The fact that the NIST report is not written for laymen. "Truthers" don't like that. Maybe it should be made into a youtube video.

The problem for this particular Truther is that the NIST report is not verifiable. It is not verifiable in two senses.

Firstly, even assuming that we had $20 million dollars to throw at the problem, NIST won't share evidence. (I think you can get the video and photographic evidence for a price, but I'm mostly thinking of metal samples.)

Secondly, most of the evidence is gone. In the case of the columns, which should show the creep that NIST claimed, this seems unforgivable.

Furthermore, as discussed in this thread, it has 'black boxes' of unknown, quantitative implications. While the cause for 'plan B's' arising is probably not NIST's fault, in general, they illustrate an uncertain degree of uncertainty, which should raise questions in everybody's mind regarding just how much explanatory power the NIST report really has.

By "uncertain degree of uncertainty", I mean that they can't quantify differences between the specific model they settled on, versus the specific model they would have chosen had all it's constituent pieces converged.

BTW, I'd guess that in many instances (maybe most), their plan B's were good enough. Unfortunately, I don't know that, and I don't think that NISTian apologists know that, or that even NIST knows that.
 
I am essentially putting NIST, and NIST'ians, on the spot...

You are in no way, shape or form putting NIST on the spot. You are posting on an educational Internet forum. If you want to "give it" to NIST then file a compliant in federal court, protest in front of their headquarters, and/or contact each of the 300+ people who wrote the report and discuss your findings with them.

I am a fan of the New York Mets, does that make me a Metian?
 
String theory and NIST. Not the best analogy.


The subject of the book is in large part the string theory community. Not only does Smolin, the author, speak of tribalism amongst physicists, he also relates the story of him writing about such problems, submitting to a journal, getting rejected, and then, upon inquiry, being told that it is nothing new to the journal readers. (I think it was a journal of education, but I don't remember.)


And just like physicists have told Smolin that they fear for their jobs and career if they buck the string theory parade (and thus they remain anonymous), I've heard reports of engineers not buying the NIST story at all, but keeping their mouths shut (and requesting anonymity). (BTW, it appears that there's been a backlash, and current job openings of particle theorists include no string theory positions. Looks like Smolin and Woit have partially succeeded in trying to get some balance of research foci.)

Not all, though. When I did my survey of civil engineers, one of them asked me what I thought had brought down the WTC towers. When I told him "CD", he laughed. OTOH, another engineer in my survey hadn't even heard of the collapse of WTC7, and since engineers in an academic department socialize on a regular basis (after seminars, and such), that suggests that nobody else in the department knew, either.



The cool thing, people can use simple models to confirm NIST conclusions. produced by you.

Using gross approximations to confirm a sophisticated analysis which, nevertheless, I am saying was lacking clarity and almost certainly capacity to nail down the collapse, is hardly the way to go. Gross approximations are what you use when you can't do any better, or don't care to.
 
You are in no way, shape or form putting NIST on the spot. You are posting on an educational Internet forum. If you want to "give it" to NIST then file a compliant in federal court, protest in front of their headquarters, and/or contact each of the 300+ people who wrote the report and discuss your findings with them.
Fine. I am putting the NIST report on the spot. When I have gone through the NIST report, I will create a summary document containing all of the NBB's I find, and send it off to NIST. I don't expect to hear back from them.

If I thought that filing a complaint in federal court, protesting in front of their headquarters, and/or contacting each of the 300+ people who wrote the report would do any good, I might consider it.

I think a better idea is to do what Smolin and Woit did regarding lemming-like, unscientific behavior in the string theory community, viz., write popular books. Maybe Dr. Greening would care to write such a book. I've got better things to do.

I didn't even want to do this thread, but nobody else stepped forward. I suggested this topic at physorg back in January.

I am a fan of the New York Mets, does that make me a Metian?
The word "fan" is from the Greek "fanaticos". Guess what that means?

It's extraordinarily unlikely that, being a fan of a particular sports club, allows you to more objectively view their strengths and weaknesses. In fact, I claim that generally the opposite is true (with the fan skewing his/her "analysis" in favor of the home team), and that this is a testable hypothesis. To test it, you could study the betting record of fan vs. non-fan bettors, obviously in a game where the fan's team is playing.

As for those fans who become completely fanatical, some of them end up killing others at sporting events. Think "soccer", here.

So, yes, you are a "Metian", understood as somebody who is not likely to be an objective critic of the Mets, due to your attachment to them. If you read On Human Nature be E.O. Wilson, you may agree with me that this is not completely bad, and, in fact, may have allowed humans to survive! Unfortunately, whatever the survival value of subjective adherence to the group mythology may be, it is also antithetical to the scientific process and ethic.
 
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You make this up as you go?

Do you understand the difference between substituting a more efficient algorithm for solving the same set of equations, vs. changing the equations themselves that you are trying to solve?
 
The problem for this particular Truther is that the NIST report is not verifiable. It is not verifiable in two senses.

Firstly, even assuming that we had $20 million dollars to throw at the problem, NIST won't share evidence. (I think you can get the video and photographic evidence for a price, but I'm mostly thinking of metal samples.)

Secondly, most of the evidence is gone. In the case of the columns, which should show the creep that NIST claimed, this seems unforgivable.

Furthermore, as discussed in this thread, it has 'black boxes' of unknown, quantitative implications. While the cause for 'plan B's' arising is probably not NIST's fault, in general, they illustrate an uncertain degree of uncertainty, which should raise questions in everybody's mind regarding just how much explanatory power the NIST report really has.

By "uncertain degree of uncertainty", I mean that they can't quantify differences between the specific model they settled on, versus the specific model they would have chosen had all it's constituent pieces converged.

BTW, I'd guess that in many instances (maybe most), their plan B's were good enough. Unfortunately, I don't know that, and I don't think that NISTian apologists know that, or that even NIST knows that.
You seem to be paranoid. Why? You analytical skills may be suffering from the very thing you try to pin on NIST; some tribal string theory political mayhem. Are you leading a new dark ages type of anti-intellectual extremism movement.

You need to back up your allegations with claims that are not so transparently wrong. The only people you fool maybe PhDs in chemistry who hold giant grudges against NIST. Once again, NIST is not needed to explain 9/11. Read the goals of the NIST report on 9/11. Relax, pursue your own independent CT, all you lack is evidence. Stop wasting time on NIST; this is a tangent; Got math?

Your post illuminated someone's bias against some unknown ... good job
 
The word "fan" is from the Greek "fanaticos". Guess what that means?

It's extraordinarily unlikely that, being a fan of a particular sports club, allows you to more objectively view their strengths and weaknesses. In fact, I claim that generally the opposite is true (with the fan skewing his/her "analysis" in favor of the home team), and that this is a testable hypothesis. To test it, you could study the betting record of fan vs. non-fan bettors, obviously in a game where the fan's team is playing.

As for those fans who become completely fanatical, some of them end up killing others at sporting events. Think "soccer", here.

So, yes, you are a "Metian", understood as somebody who is not likely to be an objective critic of the Mets, due to your attachment to them. If you read On Human Nature be E.O. Wilson, you may agree with me that this is not completely bad, and, in fact, may have allowed humans to survive! Unfortunately, whatever the survival value of subjective adherence to the group mythology may be, it is also antithetical to the scientific process and ethic.

Well, your analogy falls flat on its face. I'm willing to bet that the average "fan" of a sports team is more critical of their team and the decisions that they make than that of opposing teams. Have you ever been at a game where the home team fans booed? Every read a sports blog when a team management makes a poor decision?
 
Do you understand the difference between substituting a more efficient algorithm for solving the same set of equations, vs. changing the equations themselves that you are trying to solve?
I understand if you had something on NIST to show they did not live up to their goals you could replace the entire NIST team with your methods and expertise at computer modeling.

Yet, when I ran algorithms in the lab, they were experimental. And since we knew the outcome, changing the algorithm to arrive at the correct answer was actually a good idea. Then testing, apply the new algorithm across data sets was the hard part. I am starting to think you missed something when you post your ideas on math/physics and computer modeling. When I see your posts, I see someone, like me, who sometimes has problems grasping large systems, and making faulty analogies and error filled questions.

You make allegation about NIST and your ideas are full of errors. Someone who has more time and knowledge on this subject at their fingertips, will show, and have shown you the errors you ignore, and continue to make.

To simplify your position for me: you think NIST failed in meeting goals, you fail to show which goal they have failed at. But you are caught up in the details you do not understand. Then you try to compare this to a book by someone on string theory, who actually acknowledges the work in string theory has made important math advances, and thinks it is time to move on with no theory in sight. Your convoluted comparison is flawed. If you have no need of NIST goals; move on, you have NO valid theory in sight~!
 
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I think the NIST report is crystal clear. After 10 000 pages of analysis NIST suggests that some local strucural failures developed up top in the 240-280+ columns on the 4 000 m² large initiation floors due to the heat which resulted in sudden release of a lot of potential energy, PE, (the upper block suddenly dropped down as a solid hammer) which in turn exceeded what the structure below could absorb. Global collapse ensued. Brilliant. How much PE we are talking about is not given and there is no calcuations what the structure below could absorb. Normally not very much PE is released due to local failures and in most cases any local collapses are quickly arrested by intact structure that may just cause some further local failures, but NIST does not consider that. The report stops at "Global collapse ensued"! There is no evidence that global collapse ensued due to some local failures due to heat.

I see that Apollo20 is back in action. Apollo 20 suggests, if I understand correctly, that the upper block, apart from providing a lot of PE, had a very solid bottom that pushed down the structure below. The upper block was the strongest part of the whole building and when it got loose - the building below collapsed while the upper block was intact. Fantastic. Seen on all videos, of course. I wonder why NIST missed that? Such an obvious answer. Why complicate the analysis like NIST when Apollo20 in a short article, with Bazant, explains everything?
 
So any study where the physical evidence isn't freely distributed among anyone who wants it is unreliable?

Perhaps someone could list some research that does what metamars wants. What's an example of a study on a disaster where all the components were freely sent to any and everyone ho wants them? How about some plane accidents? Does the NTSB just send the plane parts to anyone who asks? And does this mean that their studies are farce?
 
Well, your analogy falls flat on its face. I'm willing to bet that the average "fan" of a sports team is more critical of their team and the decisions that they make than that of opposing teams. Have you ever been at a game where the home team fans booed? Every read a sports blog when a team management makes a poor decision?

I agree that some fans have a pre-disposition to boo the home team - especially New Yorkers. :) Nevertheless, the "critical" I'm concerned about is in the sense of "objective". I'm arguing that a fan will be less objective (with skewing in favor of the home team). I suppose, though, that a better way of testing a hypothesis of non-objectivity is to simply study the difference between fan vs. non-fan betting records (on games in which they've both bet), regardless of whether the fan votes for or against his team. In fact, I'll bet .25 cents that such a study has been done by somebody, somewhere. :)

As for whether the negative (boo-likely) fans outnumber the positive (cheer-likely) fans, I doubt it. On a bad day/steak/season, cheer-likely fans have nothing much to cheer about! If 1% of the crowd boos loudly, that's what people will remember.

Certainly, as applying these notions to the NISTians, I see almost no evidence of boo-likely fans. Mackey has, at least, made technical criticisms of the report. Otherwise,....... On this thread, aside from rwguinn, who only took an initial stab at answering my questions (and seems to have most everything wrong), nobody else has attempted answering directly. Also, the ratio of non-technical to technical comments is extremely high. Which sort of comment do you think is more prone to be shaded by emotions and genes?

As for the dissonance between a fan being less critical of the team, while more critical of individuals comprising that team, both of these subjective attitudes makes sense, to me, ito evolutionary biology. A chain is only as strong as the weakest link, get rid of the weak link, blah, blah. I have to admit, though, that I don't think EO Wilson ever said this, nor any other evolutionary biologist (not that I've read much in the field.)
 
In any event, my tribe's subjectivity mostly has to do with materialism, not buildings falling down. E.g., you wouldn't want to ask us what we think a Cartier watch is worth, because we wouldn't give you a bag of pulverized concrete for it.

I'm curious. How many bags of pulverized concrete do you not pay for your internet connection?
 
This is exactly analogous to what us atmospheric scientists have to put up with when you have climate change sceptics criticising global climate models - their problem isn't that they've found a legitimate problem with the model, they simply find somewhere where an assumption is made and build up the strawman from there. The point is that their issues don't come from having an informed opinion, they come from ignorance.

At least metamars is upfront in saying he doesn't understand the ins and outs of the model, but it still doesn't make his questions a valid criticism. All models have to make assumptions and simplifications; if one wants to make the case that these would significantly affect the outcome and the conclusions, someone has to show - not speculate - this to be the case.
 
Spud1k:

As intimated by Jean-Francois Lyotard in his book "The Postmodern Condition: A Report on Knowledge", science has always been in conflict with narratives. Judged by the yardstick of science, the majority of these narratives (as with NIST's spin on the collapse of WTC 1 & 2) prove to be fables.

But to the extent that science claims to seek the truth, it is obliged to legitimate the rules of its own game.....
 
This is exactly analogous to what us atmospheric scientists have to put up with when you have climate change sceptics criticising global climate models - their problem isn't that they've found a legitimate problem with the model, they simply find somewhere where an assumption is made and build up the strawman from there. The point is that their issues don't come from having an informed opinion, they come from ignorance.

At least metamars is upfront in saying he doesn't understand the ins and outs of the model, but it still doesn't make his questions a valid criticism. All models have to make assumptions and simplifications; if one wants to make the case that these would significantly affect the outcome and the conclusions, someone has to show - not speculate - this to be the case.

Do you have good reasons to prefer one model, run into convergence issues which you can't solve, and then say "the heck with it, we'll just change the model, to something less realistic but more solvable, and trust that it's good enough, even though we don't have a clue how much it'll change our model's predictions."?
 
Do you have good reasons to prefer one model, run into convergence issues which you can't solve, and then say "the heck with it, we'll just change the model, to something less realistic but more solvable, and trust that it's good enough, even though we don't have a clue how much it'll change our model's predictions."?


If a model encounters convergence issues, do you actually believe there will even be any predictions against which to measure their change on switching models?

More importantly, do you even understand the concept of convergence within computational models?
 

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